A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

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Ron R
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A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:22 am

My cousin has been feeding his non-active lab house dog a high performance feed (Black Gold) and the dog is over weight. He feeds 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening so the dog is not being overfed. Any suggestions on a good food to switch to??? Thanks
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:45 am

I looked at their product listing and would suggest he go with the Kennel Blend which is a really low fat. That way, he can probably get the food at the same price point and location he is already using. Not stellar ingredients, but it should get the weight issue under control.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:12 am

Lower fat

http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/la ... -adult.php
http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/ad ... ormula.php

These two are good choices.

There are some others with higher protein and about the same fat that would be better but I don't know what the budget is. The Royal Canin Lab diet is supposed to be very effective, high protein/low fat.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:28 am

mcbosco wrote:Lower fat

http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/la ... -adult.php
http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/ad ... ormula.php

These two are good choices.

There are some others with higher protein and about the same fat that would be better but I don't know what the budget is. The Royal Canin Lab diet is supposed to be very effective, high protein/low fat.
Adult inactive dogs do not need high protein.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
mcbosco wrote:Lower fat

http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/la ... -adult.php
http://www.propacpetfood.com/us/dogs/ad ... ormula.php

These two are good choices.

There are some others with higher protein and about the same fat that would be better but I don't know what the budget is. The Royal Canin Lab diet is supposed to be very effective, high protein/low fat.
Adult inactive dogs do not need high protein.

Ezzy
They don't technically need it but higher protein diets are good for weight management, Most everyone here has tried a high protein grain-free with the same result: weight loss.

When the gap between protein and fat widens, like a 30/10, the dog loses weight. As the calorie contribution from protein increases, the animal loses weight because protein is 30% entropic.

The flipside is the 24/20 diets, dogs hold and gain weight because there is lower protein relative to fat and carbs. More calories from fat and carbs mean weight gain because the calories aren't lost in the metabolism like protein calories.

There are how many Ph'ds at Royal Canin? Most weight reduction diets are swinging to higher protein and lower fat rather than high fiber.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:13 pm

I sure am glad we got you two (ezzy & mcbosco) knowledgable dog food guys on here with different perspectives. Thanks.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:14 pm

thanks Ron,
There are how many Ph'ds at Royal Canin? Most weight reduction diets are swinging to higher protein and lower fat rather than high fiber.
ou are forgetting what we are talking about here. We are looking for a feed for an older inactive dog. A younger dog that you are trying to take weight off of still needs some protein, especially if it is active. But the higher protein has no effect on reducing weight directly aand the reason it is included in a reduction program is due to assuming the dog is going to be exercised more heavily. You don't find higher protein in senior dog foods since their needs are considerably different.

You are talking about a completely different situation with way different requirement. Many times we just don't realize how or why the changes in a feed are made and what they do for the animal. And then we end up thiking something quitwe different than what is really happening.

Ezzy
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by birddogger » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:51 pm

It sounds to me like you don't need to change feed, just a different formula. BTW, I see an awfully lot of fat labs for some reason.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by jcbuttry8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:57 pm

Is the dog eating feed or food. You know that might make a difference. :P :D :D :D

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:02 pm

After reading quite a few studies done on tissue healing, and natural cellular regeneration, and muscle I will always feed at least 26% protein. Seniors, puppies, adults, active, lazy, house dog every will get at least that much. I currently feed a mix of a 26/18 and a 30/20 to my active dogs.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Angus » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:03 pm

I have always had luck with TOTW wetlands blend for my labs. It didn't work too well for my setter pup, but the labs did well on it. Even when they became couch potatoes later in life they were not too heavy. My current old lab mix is heavy because he is eating Pro Pac Performance with the setter pup. He gets 2 cups a day of that feed as well. I am going to give him a half cup in the morning with some green beans and a cup in the evening with some green beans. We'll see how it goes.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:06 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:Is the dog eating feed or food. You know that might make a difference. :P :D :D :D
Yeah, I read that thread after I posted this one. Hope I didn't offend anyone :roll: .
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by gotpointers » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 pm

Ron R wrote:
jcbuttry8 wrote:Is the dog eating feed or food. You know that might make a difference. :P :D :D :D
Yeah, I read that thread after I posted this one. Hope I didn't offend anyone :roll: .
Ron make sure the lab only drinks Miller 64. :idea:

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:thanks Ron,
There are how many Ph'ds at Royal Canin? Most weight reduction diets are swinging to higher protein and lower fat rather than high fiber.
ou are forgetting what we are talking about here. We are looking for a feed for an older inactive dog. A younger dog that you are trying to take weight off of still needs some protein, especially if it is active. But the higher protein has no effect on reducing weight directly aand the reason it is included in a reduction program is due to assuming the dog is going to be exercised more heavily. You don't find higher protein in senior dog foods since their needs are considerably different.

You are talking about a completely different situation with way different requirement. Many times we just don't realize how or why the changes in a feed are made and what they do for the animal. And then we end up thiking something quitwe different than what is really happening.

Ezzy
First, I don't see anywhere where the dog's age is disclosed, and second it does not matter. It has been shown over and over that feeding older dogs higher protein foods is fine. That Royal Canin Lab 30/11 is intended for all ages over 5 month old.

And Ezzy, you are wrong. If you take a pot of calories, let's say 1,000 day, it does matter how it is distributed. The greater the proportion is protein, the more calories will be sacrificed during metabolism. As an extreme example, if the food was 100% protein only about 700 would be usable, whereas if it were all fat the number is a bit over 900 calories.

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product- ... d-analysis

Here is another example, 33/10. An ALS food that is supposedly very good for overweight dogs.

http://www.evopet.com/products/1611

Above is another a 52/15 a well known weight loss food. ALS

Protein is inefficient while fat and carbohydrates are more efficient. If want the dog to trim down lower the fat and up the protein, eazy peazy.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mountaindogs » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:42 pm

Protein, fat, carbohydrate they do more than put weight on a dog. They fuel the whole system in millions of different little ways. Cut back too much on fat and the skin suffers, cut back on too much of another an muscle atrophy or heal more slowly. Increase fiber too much or not include enough etc etc etc... the whole calorie thing is beat to death here.
Calories are needed but they are only a piece of the whole great big puzzle.
In the end it's what a dog does with a food that counts. If they do well on it, feed it. If not, change, add mroe, or cut back, as is needed by that specific dog.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by nikegundog » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:52 pm

My aging lab did very well on Iams weight control, cost was the same as regular Iams

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:15 pm

mcbosco wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:thanks Ron,
There are how many Ph'ds at Royal Canin? Most weight reduction diets are swinging to higher protein and lower fat rather than high fiber.
ou are forgetting what we are talking about here. We are looking for a feed for an older inactive dog. A younger dog that you are trying to take weight off of still needs some protein, especially if it is active. But the higher protein has no effect on reducing weight directly aand the reason it is included in a reduction program is due to assuming the dog is going to be exercised more heavily. You don't find higher protein in senior dog foods since their needs are considerably different.

You are talking about a completely different situation with way different requirement. Many times we just don't realize how or why the changes in a feed are made and what they do for the animal. And then we end up thiking something quitwe different than what is really happening.

Ezzy
First, I don't see anywhere where the dog's age is disclosed, and second it does not matter. It has been shown over and over that feeding older dogs higher protein foods is fine. That Royal Canin Lab 30/11 is intended for all ages over 5 month old.

And Ezzy, you are wrong. If you take a pot of calories, let's say 1,000 day, it does matter how it is distributed. The greater the proportion is protein, the more calories will be sacrificed during metabolism. As an extreme example, if the food was 100% protein only about 700 would be usable, whereas if it were all fat the number is a bit over 900 calories.

http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product- ... d-analysis

Here is another example, 33/10. An ALS food that is supposedly very good for overweight dogs.

http://www.evopet.com/products/1611

Above is another a 52/15 a well known weight loss food. ALS

Protein is inefficient while fat and carbohydrates are more efficient. If want the dog to trim down lower the fat and up the protein, eazy peazy.

Problem is you have no idea how much of the protein is used since the dog uses amino acids and protein is just a word we throw around to cover amino acids. Also % has little value in knowing how much the dog is getting since you have no idea how much the dog is eating. For an older adult that is inactive I want a lower % since the dog does not need or use the extra protein and have a feed with enough fiber that I can feed enough to keep the dog satisfied and also keep thintestines and bowel healthy. I even add some beet pulp to their diet to do that job and also not to produce the heat a regular ration does in the summer. you are right about the lower fat though. Look for a feed that is low fat, lower protein, higher carbs and higher fiber and it will work and make the dog happy too.And it works in my kennel and it worked in the feeding tests.

Ezzy
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by jlp8cornell » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:41 pm

Has anyone considered that the dog may have some metabolic problem? 2 c. for a Lab sized dog, even at ~500 kcal/cup, isn't that much. I feed my 13.5 yr old, 85# mix 3 cups of Dr Tims Pursuit. Its 481 kcals/cup. My GSP has done the best on that food and I don't want to feed 2 foods. She shows 3 ribs and looks amazing for her age and size.

She is a house dog. Her outings (daily) consist of playing in the yard and slow walks at a friends. Not much compared to the GSP who is busy every second.

It seems like something is off......Either this dog has some metabolic issue or it is getting a ton of treats/ scraps in addition to the 2 cups.
Last edited by jlp8cornell on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:15 am

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2087S.full

Interesting study

"They conclude that substituting carbohydrates for protein in a weight-loss diet induces a greater metabolism of fat than a high-carbohydrate diet. In a study by Johnston et al. (10), substitution of protein for carbohydrate in a low-fat diet was associated with an increase in postprandial thermogenesis. This increase in energy expenditure could help explain the increase loss in body weight and body fat observed with high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets in this study."

This is what I was saying, body fat declines faster when protein rises proportionally vs the other components. Fat has the lowest postprandial thermogenesis and that is why it has to be kept low relative to protein (and carbs) in a weight lost diet.

The other benefit to the higher protein weight loss foods is more stable insulin levels and a happier dog not wanting to eat so much.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Onk » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:38 am

Inactive + inside + any table scraps/treats?= fat lab?

That seems to be the story of many home bound labs I have known. Not saying this is your friends case, but my lab sought out ever chance he could for the smallest morsel of food! He was much like his owner! :D
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by rinker » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:16 am

I guess that I am going about it all wrong. When I notice that one of my dogs is picking up a little weight, I feed them less. When I notice one of my dogs is looking a little thin, I feed them more. It never occured to me that I should consult with a biochemist about where their calories are coming from and exactly how they are being metabolized.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:24 am

rinker wrote:I guess that I am going about it all wrong. When I notice that one of my dogs is picking up a little weight, I feed them less.
A voice of reason, good for you. That is why I insist on hand feeding and looking at every dog everyday. Can tell pretty much how each is feeling, observe their appetite, and check their condition, which all spells a happy healthy well cared for animal.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:17 am

jlp8cornell wrote:Has anyone considered that the dog may have some metabolic problem? 2 c. for a Lab sized dog, even at ~500 kcal/cup, isn't that much. I feed my 13.5 yr old, 85# mix 3 cups of Dr Tims Pursuit. Its 481 kcals/cup. My GSP has done the best on that food and I don't want to feed 2 foods. She shows 3 ribs and looks amazing for her age and size.

She is a house dog. Her outings (daily) consist of playing in the yard and slow walks at a friends. Not much compared to the GSP who is busy every second.

It seems like something is off......Either this dog has some metabolic issue or it is getting a ton of treats/ scraps in addition to the 2 cups.
Jen, how that older spayed female can stay so trim on such a rich food is pretty amazing. Must be the hound in her. :lol:

She is as shiny as a new penny too.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Onk » Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:15 pm

rinker wrote:I guess that I am going about it all wrong. When I notice that one of my dogs is picking up a little weight, I feed them less. When I notice one of my dogs is looking a little thin, I feed them more. It never occured to me that I should consult with a biochemist about where their calories are coming from and exactly how they are being metabolized.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:41 am

rinker wrote:I guess that I am going about it all wrong. When I notice that one of my dogs is picking up a little weight, I feed them less. When I notice one of my dogs is looking a little thin, I feed them more. It never occured to me that I should consult with a biochemist about where their calories are coming from and exactly how they are being metabolized.
The dog is only getting 2 cups of food a day and I would not recommend feeding less than that. That is why I posted the question but thanks for stating the obvious. I only have experience with high performance feeds and very active dogs. I'm looking for a quality feed for a un-active lab.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by brad27 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:08 pm

Ron R wrote:My cousin has been feeding his non-active lab house dog a high performance feed (Black Gold) and the dog is over weight. He feeds 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening so the dog is not being overfed. Any suggestions on a good food to switch to??? Thanks
Is there a Sam's club nearby? I know a pro that was feeding 20+ dogs "member's mark exceed chicken and rice." They were getting about 5-6 cups per day and maintaining weight. I told him about EA and he is now feeding that. Those dogs get about 3 cups of EA to maintain weight.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by JakeDD » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:55 am

I switched one dog over to Premium Edge Healthy Weight food a week ago and I can already see a little improvement on her. It's a 44/12 mix that I decided to try after researching weight control feeds from multiple sources. Price wasn't bad either - $37 for a 35lb bag I believe.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:05 pm

44/12. Looks good.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:55 pm

JakeDD wrote:I switched one dog over to Premium Edge Healthy Weight food a week ago and I can already see a little improvement on her. It's a 44/12 mix that I decided to try after researching weight control feeds from multiple sources. Price wasn't bad either - $37 for a 35lb bag I believe.

Image
http://www.premiumedgepetfood.com/produ ... n_formula/
That's alot of help. Thanks.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by smoothbean » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Is anyone else there maybe feeding the dog as well. I have heard of that happening to a shorthair , the ma of the house would feed then the wife and the kids every now and then as well. How about people food didn't mention if there is any of that involved.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Ron R » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:12 pm

Nobody else fed the dog and he gets no scraps. Good theory but not possible in this case.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by MikeB » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:33 pm

Here would be my choice and I have used it to reduce the weight of plenty of rescue dogs that were spoiled by owners.

Canidae Platinum
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/platinum/dry.html

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:41 pm

MikeB wrote:Here would be my choice and I have used it to reduce the weight of plenty of rescue dogs that were spoiled by owners.

Canidae Platinum
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/platinum/dry.html
Looks like a good choice. I just don't like giving all of that protien to an inactive dog. And you could even bulk it up with some canned vegetables which would be great in this hot weather.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:
MikeB wrote:Here would be my choice and I have used it to reduce the weight of plenty of rescue dogs that were spoiled by owners.

Canidae Platinum
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/platinum/dry.html
Looks like a good choice. I just don't like giving all of that protien to an inactive dog. And you could even bulk it up with some canned vegetables which would be great in this hot weather.

Ezzy
A lot of the protein in the Premium Edge formula is pea and potato protein, so you would assume it is low ash with the food having safe levels of phosphorous, manganese, etc. That is really the only benefit to a "senior" diet.

The Premium Edge diet seems like a better alternative to one filled with carbohydrates and fiber.

Protein stabilizes insulin, stimulates metabolism and keep the dog from cravings. All of these things help keep a dog lean.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:24 am

mcbosco wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
MikeB wrote:Here would be my choice and I have used it to reduce the weight of plenty of rescue dogs that were spoiled by owners.

Canidae Platinum
http://www.canidae.com/dogs/platinum/dry.html
Looks like a good choice. I just don't like giving all of that protien to an inactive dog. And you could even bulk it up with some canned vegetables which would be great in this hot weather.

Ezzy
A lot of the protein in the Premium Edge formula is pea and potato protein, so you would assume it is low ash with the food having safe levels of phosphorous, manganese, etc. That is really the only benefit to a "senior" diet.

The Premium Edge diet seems like a better alternative to one filled with carbohydrates and fiber.

Protein stabilizes insulin, stimulates metabolism and keep the dog from cravings. All of these things help keep a dog lean.
There is plenty of protein in that feed to fulfil any need the dog has. When they found that protein helped in those areas they did not say feed as much as you can. And the rest of your argment is just reading from the ads. All of the feeds have a SAFE level of minerals and as far as the ash is concerned it is of little importance in this kind of a feed. You will have trouble finding where it is of any importance in any dog food as far as that goes. It is just another of the marketing ploys.

There is no place that says because a little is good, a lot is better.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by mcbosco » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:02 pm

I am not sure where you get your information, but where I am from Vets do not like older adult dogs getting foods with high ash, especially phosphorous.

Some high protein foods have about 12% total ash and over 1.5% phosphorous, some close to 2%.

This is the only part of a high protein diet anyone needs to be concerned with.

The idea that high protein is harmful to less active, older dogs has been disproved over and over, but high levels of some minerals coincidental with poor quality high protein diets is something to worry about. This why you almost never see high protein diets solely from beef or pork. The mineral levels are dangerous. The nutritionist that formulated the Premium Edge diet knows about the danger of high ash and used pea protein to compensate for this.

Unfortunately, a dog doesn't come with a crystal ball where you can see into the future about how durable its kidneys are going to be.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:14 pm

mcbosco wrote:I am not sure where you get your information, but where I am from Vets do not like older adult dogs getting foods with high ash, especially phosphorous.

Some high protein foods have about 12% total ash and over 1.5% phosphorous, some close to 2%.

This is the only part of a high protein diet anyone needs to be concerned with.

The idea that high protein is harmful to less active, older dogs has been disproved over and over, but high levels of some minerals coincidental with poor quality high protein diets is something to worry about. This why you almost never see high protein diets solely from beef or pork. The mineral levels are dangerous. The nutritionist that formulated the Premium Edge diet knows about the danger of high ash and used pea protein to compensate for this.

Unfortunately, a dog doesn't come with a crystal ball where you can see into the future about how durable its kidneys are going to be.
OK, I give up. I admit I have never talked to a vet about high ash. I don't talk to a vet about any type of nutrition since you explained a couple of years ago that vets know nothing about nutrition. Maybe you could list your sources and show the test results of what is a good or poor protein and what effects ash has on the dogs health. Or is this a lot like arguing about how bad Diamond is because they were one of 40 or fifty people who instigated a recall for salmonella while you recommended feeding green tripe and never mentioned to anyone that it is a major carrier of salmonella.

And why is the nutritionist for Premium Edge so much smarter than all of the other nutritionist? Or why poo-poo what has worked for many people on this very board by telling them they just don't know what they are talking about?

I am not saying the high protein feeds don't work but I do think you do not really understand just how or why the different formulations of different feeds work. There is a lot more to nutrition than reading the ads on the internet. It still takes 4 years for the first degree and 2 or 3 more for most nutritionist that are employed by the major feed companies plus years of research and feed trials along with millions of dollars to insure the quality of their feeds.

And all of this just because several of us like the lower calorie,higher fiber, and lower priced feeds instead of paying for a lot of protein the dogs don't really need or use. And for those of you who don't care about thee things then feel free to feed something else.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by claybuster_aa » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:04 pm

Ron R wrote:My cousin has been feeding his non-active lab house dog a high performance feed (Black Gold) and the dog is over weight. He feeds 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening so the dog is not being overfed. Any suggestions on a good food to switch to??? Thanks
Wouldn't a non-active dog eat less and therefore naturally lose weight? My thoughts would be dogs exercising and working hard need to eat more to fuel the need for calories. Dogs not working hard, not exercising, eat less for they haven't burned the calories.
Therefore, IMHO, exercise or lack of have nothing to do with weight loss or weight gain. What does matter is what is in the diet and how that diet is structured in regards to weight gain or weight loss. I think the industry as a whole likes to pass the blame onto the owners as if they've doing something wrong. What they won't blame is the feed itself and improperly structured diets.

Just some food for thought!

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:27 pm

claybuster_aa wrote:
Ron R wrote:My cousin has been feeding his non-active lab house dog a high performance feed (Black Gold) and the dog is over weight. He feeds 1 cup in the morning and 1 cup in the evening so the dog is not being overfed. Any suggestions on a good food to switch to??? Thanks
Wouldn't a non-active dog eat less and therefore naturally lose weight? My thoughts would be dogs exercising and working hard need to eat more to fuel the need for calories. Dogs not working hard, not exercising, eat less for they haven't burned the calories.
Therefore, IMHO, exercise or lack of have nothing to do with weight loss or weight gain. What does matter is what is in the diet and how that diet is structured in regards to weight gain or weight loss. I think the industry as a whole likes to pass the blame onto the owners as if they've doing something wrong. What they won't blame is the feed itself and improperly structured diets.

Just some food for thought!

Charlie
There is only one way a dog or person gains or loses weight and that is they take in more calories than they burn or take in less than they use. Structure has little to do with that as they c gain or lose on any diet. We do know there are feeds that have less calories and those work better for weight loss programs since you can feed more bulk which helps the dogs feel more satisfied. And we know that they still need the vitamins and minerals while on the restricted diet along with some protein also. I do think you will have better luck keeping dogs from gaining a lot of weight with a raw meat diet since you are normally feeding less calories. Just as we find that performance dogs hold their weight better with good quality grain in there diet.

But the really true answer to losing weight is consume less than you burn. Two things are pretty much what governs that and it is how much they eat and how much they burn. It is hard to take weight off without a good amount of exercise.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Onk » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:42 pm

My Gawd I know I asked these same questions as a newbie, but the dog food/feed battle never ends! Find a food/feed that works for you, price range, and for your dog, health/looks, and go with it! Most dog foods/feeds are ok, but it is like most things in life, you pretty much get what you pay for! I don't have a degree or know a vet that is really that intune with all the feeds/foods out there, so i guess you could call this my $.02 worth. :D Fat dogs are much like fat people, subtract fat/calories from the diet or cut back on volume of food in use should = weight loss of K-9.
Need to add that I was not referring to the poster of this question as a newbie or asking that he was asking a silly question...I am only meaning that you bring up dog food on this forum and it always takes a Hatfields and McCoys kinda path! When I started on this forum I was led to a great food I had never tried, can afford and my dogs do great on. I don't know the scientific formula of the contents or the propper nugget size. I just think we can sometime over think or over talk/discuss/argue a subject to death with no clear outcome in the end, thats all.
Last edited by Onk on Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by birddogger » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:14 pm

you pretty much get what you pay for!
This is not necessarily true for some things and dog food is one of them. :wink:

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Onk » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:57 am

birddogger wrote:
you pretty much get what you pay for!
This is not necessarily true for some things and dog food is one of them. :wink:

Charlie

Agreed that many feeds are waaaay over priced and your paying for name. When I say "pretty much" what I mean is when you go into dollar store and get their Barks O Lot dog food, or insert your own catchy name, for a very cheap price you are prob. not getting the quality you would if you spent a little more at the feed store lets say and got their lowest/cheapest food. Did not mean that if you go to PETSMART and pay $60 for 20lbs of "My Dog Is King" food, again insert your own catchy name, you are getting a better value or food. Example of what I mean?....ok if I must. At my local farm store Diamond dog food is sitting there with PPP, Taste of the Wild, Science Diet you get the picture ......and then there is the house brand for not much $$$$. Pretty much get what you pay for in my book means that you pick, as I stated, the food that FITS your budget and works for your dog....most times that food is in that level above the store or generic brand....most times, but maybe not always. So I stand on what I said with a little bit of a edit....You pretty much get what you pay for within reason and common sense. :D
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by dr tim » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:40 am

Onk;

You are made for a marketing job. "My Dog is King" must be TM'ed right away. I also think "Hatfield and McCoy's" would be a terrific name for a cat food. I always thought "Jerry Bit's" would be a great cat food name...

People are passionate about dog food, it seems. I think a lot of it is marketing, just like Shell's "Nitrogen Enriched Gasoline." They TM'ed that in the fifties, and actually, the truth is all the gasoline is nitrigen enriched, as far as I know.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Garrison » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:04 am

I was a Winemaker/Cellar Master for 6 years after college. We had some port that we made that didn't sale worth a crap for about a year at $12 a bottle. We took it off the shelves for a couple months and rereleased it as a limited reserve and increased the price to our most expensive bottle at $30 a bottle and all of the sudden it taste a whole lot better. Every "Guido Swing D@&k" that came through the door had to by a bottle to impress the ladies. Value and perceived value are very different things especially in the food and wine industry.


Exercise the dog!

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by slistoe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:26 am

Garrison wrote: Exercise the dog!
Claybuster has shown us that this has no bearing on weight loss or gain - did you miss that?

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by brad27 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:18 am

slistoe wrote:
Garrison wrote: Exercise the dog!
Claybuster has shown us that this has no bearing on weight loss or gain - did you miss that?
Are you being serious?

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by slistoe » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:15 pm

claybuster_aa wrote: Therefore, IMHO, exercise or lack of have nothing to do with weight loss or weight gain. What does matter is what is in the diet and how that diet is structured in regards to weight gain or weight loss. I think the industry as a whole likes to pass the blame onto the owners as if they've doing something wrong. What they won't blame is the feed itself and improperly structured diets.

Just some food for thought!

Charlie
Straight from the horse's mouth. Industry is trying to blame people for not exercising their pets properly when the problem really is that the poorly designed food is causing the dogs to gain (or lose) weight. Exercise has nothing to do with it.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by claybuster_aa » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:38 pm

slistoe wrote: Straight from the horse's mouth. Industry is trying to blame people for not exercising their pets properly when the problem really is that the poorly designed food is causing the dogs to gain (or lose) weight. Exercise has nothing to do with it.
The horses mouth would be Abady of course!

Abady:
“Dogs become obese as a result of ingesting too many calories or as a result of a lack of exercise” These are popular claims made by industry. Neither contention is correct because dogs only ingest the amount of food they require to supply the calories they need to fuel their bodily functions. When they have acquired the needed calories they will stop eating. This is a scientific fact. They cannot overeat, even if they gorge themselves one day and don’t eat the next. If they receive less exercise, left to their own devices, they will consume less food and thereby not get fatter because of the reduced exercise. The cause of obesity in non-neutered animals again is omnivore targeted under nutrition. That is why, whenever one tries to reduce the feed intake of obese animals they get fatter! When the protein and vitamin core of the diet is inadequate, the body cannot produce the hormones that are needed to regulate the fluid balance of the body, allowing fluid and fat to accumulate. Since inadequate nutrition is the cause, the high fiber diets are only more extreme versions of what caused the problem in the first place and are definitely not the answer.
But then of course you can always accept the silly notion dogs are just like people and it's all your fault because you haven't taken your dog down to the track to run 15 laps a day to lose weight. lol....

Reality is when the industry in general stops providing crappy diets for dogs their overall appearance and shape would begin to look a lot better.

Proof is in my dog eating 800 cals per cup for 10 years and not an ounce of fat on her.

Starving your dog of nutrition to lose weight (i.e, higher fiber diets) is borderline criminal if you ask me. The dog must eat what it needs to fuel its body, and the ample amounts of nutrients need to be available in the food. Sadly that is not the industry standard but it should be. Forcing exercise upon a dog and reducing nutrients at the same time...that's insanity and setting the dog up for pending disaster.

Ezzy had mentioned raw feed dogs seem to fare better when it comes to weight reduction. That's probably the smartest thing I've ever heard him say! The nutrients are present, the weight comes off. It's the owners fault is an industry excuse in an attempt to justify crap food.

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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by Garrison » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:56 pm

claybuster_aa wrote:
slistoe wrote: Straight from the horse's mouth. Industry is trying to blame people for not exercising their pets properly when the problem really is that the poorly designed food is causing the dogs to gain (or lose) weight. Exercise has nothing to do with it.
The horses mouth would be Abady of course!

Abady:
“Dogs become obese as a result of ingesting too many calories or as a result of a lack of exercise” These are popular claims made by industry. Neither contention is correct because dogs only ingest the amount of food they require to supply the calories they need to fuel their bodily functions. When they have acquired the needed calories they will stop eating. This is a scientific fact. They cannot overeat, even if they gorge themselves one day and don’t eat the next. If they receive less exercise, left to their own devices, they will consume less food and thereby not get fatter because of the reduced exercise. The cause of obesity in non-neutered animals again is omnivore targeted under nutrition. That is why, whenever one tries to reduce the feed intake of obese animals they get fatter! When the protein and vitamin core of the diet is inadequate, the body cannot produce the hormones that are needed to regulate the fluid balance of the body, allowing fluid and fat to accumulate. Since inadequate nutrition is the cause, the high fiber diets are only more extreme versions of what caused the problem in the first place and are definitely not the answer.
But then of course you can always accept the silly notion dogs are just like people and it's all your fault because you haven't taken your dog down to the track to run 15 laps a day to lose weight. lol....

Reality is when the industry in general stops providing crappy diets for dogs their overall appearance and shape would begin to look a lot better.

Proof is in my dog eating 800 cals per cup for 10 years and not an ounce of fat on her.

Starving your dog of nutrition to lose weight (i.e, higher fiber diets) is borderline criminal if you ask me. The dog must eat what it needs to fuel its body, and the ample amounts of nutrients need to be available in the food. Sadly that is not the industry standard but it should be. Forcing exercise upon a dog and reducing nutrients at the same time...that's insanity and setting the dog up for pending disaster.

Ezzy had mentioned raw feed dogs seem to fare better when it comes to weight reduction. That's probably the smartest thing I've ever heard him say! The nutrients are present, the weight comes off. It's the owners fault is an industry excuse in an attempt to justify crap food.

Charlie
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Re: A New Feed For an Over Weight Lab

Post by brad27 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:59 pm

“Dogs become obese as a result of ingesting too many calories or as a result of a lack of exercise” These are popular claims made by industry. Neither contention is correct because dogs only ingest the amount of food they require to supply the calories they need to fuel their bodily functions. When they have acquired the needed calories they will stop eating. This is a scientific fact. They cannot overeat, even if they gorge themselves one day and don’t eat the next. If they receive less exercise, left to their own devices, they will consume less food and thereby not get fatter because of the reduced exercise.
That's funny. If I road my dog 3 days a week and feed her 2.5 cups a day she stays at a consistent weight. If I feed her 2.5 cups a day and don't road her she gains weight. BTW, she eats all 2.5 cups everyday.
Why does abady give feeding recommdations if the dog won't over eat. Why not just say " just keep a big bowl of food out. The dog will eat when it's hungery.

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