Meat free diet for dogs

[nanney1]

Interesting article...

An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics
in sprint-racing sled dogs. Brown WY, Vanselow BA, Redman AJ, Pluske JR.

Conclusions
The present study is the first to demonstrate the potential for a
meat-free diet to be nutritionally adequate for exercising dogs.
In a 16-week controlled experiment, a meat-free diet maintained
haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled
dogs (Siberian huskies). Importantly, these findings pave the
way for commercial pet food manufacturers to produce nutritionally
adequate meat-free diets for dogs.

Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19480731
Full text PDF: www.une.edu.au/staff/wbrown/brown-huskies-bjn-2009.pdf

[Chukar12]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

[birddogger]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Charlie

[Doc E]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

VEGANS tend to be strange people.



.

[Savage Destiny]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

This was my exact thought. What's the point? I'm sure it'd be more expensive than a regular kibble. Why even look into a vegetarian diet for a carnivore? If someone doesn't want to feed their pet meat, they should get a herbivore.

[nanney1]

The purpose of research is not to "prove" anything. It simply continues the conversation.

I don't know who originally said this, but it is a point that was stressed to me during my graduate work. A previous study showed that dogs became anemic when fed such a diet. This study had different results. So the conversation continues...

In any event, I would like to see some other things out of this study. Such as, were dogs really fed the same amount? And what was the stool output differences on the food and flatulence. Maybe it was there and I glossed over it. And was there a greater amount of stress diarrhea on one food compared to the other? These are big deals to mushers.

It has been my understanding that a complete vegetable matter diet could be formulated that would meet the needs of canines. However, the amount of soy meal used would cause large and bulky stools, high outputs, and flatulence. And most pet owners don't want that. However, if you have a Great Pyrenees that lives in the pasture, it wouldn't matter at all.

[fishvik]

I can just see where PETA would go this one. Next they'd want dogs to trade in their fur coats and start wearing fleece! (Ofcourse that might not be a bad idea for GSP's here in the winter)

[Doc E]

There is a big difference between SURVIVE and THRIVE.
Cats cannot survive on Veggies alone
Dogs can survive, but not thrive on veggies alone.

Wild dogs eat primarily meat with some veggies mixed in.



.

[marysburg]

Interesting for the purposes of encouraging discussion, but this research was done on sprinting athletes and I have always thought of bird dogs as endurance athletes. The implications for the chemistry within the muscles is very different, but could apply to short work retrieve from a duck blind or flyball I guess. Long distance mushers would have very different needs for a ration which would sustain long aerobic work and recovery, rather than short anaerobic bursts. Maybe a meatless diet could be useful for allergic dogs, but I think the flatulence and stool size comments are valid. Perhaps the pet food industry would see this as a marketing advantage when selling to vegan pet owners? I wonder who funded the research?

[mcbosco]

Interesting for the purposes of encouraging discussion, but this research was done on sprinting athletes and I have always thought of bird dogs as endurance athletes. The implications for the chemistry within the muscles is very different, but could apply to short work retrieve from a duck blind or flyball I guess. Long distance mushers would have very different needs for a ration which would sustain long aerobic work and recovery, rather than short anaerobic bursts. Maybe a meatless diet could be useful for allergic dogs, but I think the flatulence and stool size comments are valid. Perhaps the pet food industry would see this as a marketing advantage when selling to vegan pet owners? I wonder who funded the research?

Mars funded it, says right in the study.

[Nick Miles]

Brilliant. I can see the mixed emotion of a vegan with his vegan GSP hunting Brinjals in the spring. The world has gone nuts.

[Chukar12]

The world has gone nuts.Brilliant. I can see the mixed emotion of a vegan with his vegan GSP hunting Brinjals in the spring. The world has gone nuts.

Indeed...whether this is ill conceived and misdirected scientific research (forgive us Sir Isaac and Al) or a legitimate poking around with formulations to satisfy a marketing niche created by those bent on the ruination of a culture based on the laws of nature ... it's just simply insane and a waste of time and resources that will add nothing to the well-being of canine athletes specifically and domesticated dogs in general. I am afraid to look too deep and see if their is a trail to governments grants...makes me want to scream

[Hondo]

The world has gone nuts.Brilliant. I can see the mixed emotion of a vegan with his vegan GSP hunting Brinjals in the spring. The world has gone nuts.

Indeed...whether this is ill conceived and misdirected scientific research (forgive us Sir Isaac and Al) or a legitimate poking around with formulations to satisfy a marketing niche created by those bent on the ruination of a culture based on the laws of nature ... it's just simply insane and a waste of time and resources that will add nothing to the well-being of canine athletes specifically and domesticated dogs in general. I am afraid to look too deep and see if their is a trail to governments grants...makes me want to scream

I agree.

Money is a valuable resource that should be better utilized. I understand the curiousity of "what if..." I can understand the curiosity of seeing what would happen if you feed a dog a vegeterian diet. And the possible insight that could be gained from such an endeavour.

However, at the same time I would rather have all efforts and money being focused on issues that are much more pressing to canine health.

But I guess since Mars is funding the research they can spend their money the way they want. Plus, they really aren't wasting public shareholder money since it is a private company which is owned by the Mars family.

Hondo

[ThePope]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

The motivation is the normal one , money .. which cost more money to fill the manufactures kibble bag veggie scraps or meat by products , not to mention the
added sales to hippies.
Its always about the coin

[ezzy333]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

The motivation is the normal one , money .. which cost more money to fill the manufactures kibble bag veggie scraps or meat by products , not to mention the
added sales to hippies.
Its always about the coin

The motivation is filling a area that people ask for. You have to be able o sell a product before you make any money and their are a few people who always want something different and are willing to pay for it, but it really doesn't make any sense like so many other ideas people have.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

...so what would be the motivation for not feeding carnivores a meat based diet?

The motivation is the normal one , money .. which cost more money to fill the manufactures kibble bag veggie scraps or meat by products , not to mention the
added sales to hippies.
Its always about the coin

The motivation is filling a area that people ask for. You have to be able o sell a product before you make any money and their are a few people who always want something different and are willing to pay for it, but it really doesn't make any sense like so many other ideas people have.

Ezzy

Exactly!

Charlie

[fourtrax]

This brings to mind a thought
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

[brad27]

This brings to mind a thought
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

True, but marketing has changed in the past 50 years here in the US. It used to be, find out what the people want, then make that product. Now it's, make the product, then figure a way to sell it to the people.

[SpinoneIllinois]

Look in the thread about HSUS. That's where this sort of thing is hatched. I'm sure it just tortures those folks, to think that one animal would eat another.
If they had their way, it would be against the law to give your dog any food that contains meat.

[SHORTFAT]

I just came right out and asked my dog... she said "no thanks"...

[markj]

My dogs prefer to eat things that have a face me too!!

[kninebirddog]

These Vegan dog food people were at the SuperZoo retailer show in Vegas...I over heard what some of these people were trying to convince potential buyers of
I seriously can't believe these anti meat eaters can try to deny an animal what it is designed to eat...Thank you but no thank you those people need to take their bags of dried veggies and grains and feed it to themselves....

[Griz]

It states the diet is adequate. That's a lot different then optimal. Especially with high performance dogs. Besides a grain based diet is not good for a dog ( not that good for humans either ).

[nanney1]

It states the diet is adequate. That's a lot different then optimal. Especially with high performance dogs. Besides a grain based diet is not good for a dog ( not that good for humans either ).

Does it? It states that it maintained normal blood cell counts for sprint racing Sibes.This was in contrast to a previous study.

[Griz]

Look at a dogs teeth. It is a Carnivor. That is the way Nature made them through the evolutionary process. To feed them vegi's is contrary to their natural needs. Would you think of feeding a lion a bowl of Corn Flakes?

[Chukar12]

Nanney,

I didn't ask you directly I suppose...is yours purely a scientific curiosity in this, or do you have an opinion that this study supports? Do you believe or want to believe that canines are better served in a diet without meat? It is difficult to have an intellectual diatribe without knowing the purpose...for instance; wine makers of whom I am a huge fan have been the funds behind studies that show us a glass of wine is good for the heart, opponents argue that grape juice does the same but their lobby isn't as aggressive or interesting.

If you will pardon my rant, I will make sure that I clarify my interest in this interaction...I loathe proclaimed enlightenment where emotion steamrolls common sense. This quest for moral perfection has the fundamental flaw of an imperfect baseline to start on, for reference see the holy wars through history. I do apologize for dragging canine nutrition into religion but how does the dog benefit from this? I venture that left to their own, canines would never,ever, ever evolve to the point of their own agricultural revolution. Let's leave the natural order of trivial things alone, this progression to urban niceties is making humans fat enough and creating neurotic panty wastes in droves,,,John Adams tried to warn us...

...remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide

[nanney1]

As I stated when I originally posted a link to the research - "Interesting article..."

I guess since I posted the article, there is an assumption that I support a meat free diet for canines and maybe also humans and other agendas that may be associated with that line of thinking. I can assure everyone that is not the case. I feed a meat based food to my dogs and my personal diet consists mainly of meat, milk, eggs and protein powder.

I have fairly narrow interests including canine nutrition. I found this article interesting. I've thought about it a little more since reading some of the responses. So here goes....

I guess if you want to feed a meat free diet to a sedentary or moderately active pet, this type of food should do just fine considering the results with sprint racing sled dogs.

One day, it may be cost prohibitive for many people to feed a food with meat to their pets. Just sort of thinking out loud on that line. On the other hand, if this type of food hits the market and is targeted toward Vegans, then it will be expensive.

Just sort of rambling. But in response to Chukar12, scientific curiosity mainly. I don't believe that canines are better served with a meat free diet. However, this study seems to show it can be done.

[Chukar12]

It is interesting from that point of view, and I hope I was clear that i was trying to determine what type of response you were looking for? My built-in skepticism always sends me looking for the source and purpose of these type of things..and dear God I hope we don't run out of meat...that would certainly be a symptom of the ruination I spoke of previously...
thanks for the kind response

[nanney1]

I believe in research for the sake of research though I'm skeptical that it always happens that way. Especially since studies are sometimes funded. I once conducted a qualitative study, on a completely different subject, and some of the results were opposite of what I and most others would have expected. So, I will look at a research article and just read it without wondering too much about the bias or motives of the author.

If the dogs had ended up anaemic, then the research would have simply corresponded with the previous study. Probably would have still been published. I would have found that interesting too. And someone else would have tried again later.

[Francois P vd Walt]

Soon they will have heards of Huskies running in fenced camps in America like cows and sell them to the vegetarians !