I have a friend that bred two litters with 16 puppies between the two litters. From those 16 puppies 5 have had Demodectic Mange, two with serious generalized outbreaks. I have a firm standing on my position to not breed any of the dogs and not to breed the parents again; However, my friend's "cowboy" vet has him convinced that it is "no big deal". Can any of you give me some arguments to use to help convince him that breeding these dogs would be bad for his kennel name, the breed, and his reputation?
Jim
Demodectic Mange
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Margaret
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_de ... mange.html
Demodectic mange. The demodex mite lives on the skin of all dogs, and is passed to puppies by their dam. In healthy dogs, this mite causes no problems. However, demodectic mange can occur when a dog has a weakened or compromised immune system. The American Academy of Veterinary Dermatology passed a resolution in 1983 suggesting that all dogs that develop generalised demodex should be neutered or spayed as there is a genetic link to the development of generalised demodectic mange.
Demodectic mange can occur in localised form, which is characterised by a few spots that do not itch. These patchs usually appear on head, neck and fore limbs. Ninety percent of those puppies that develop localised demodex will heal on their own. Ten percent of those puppies will go on to have generalised demodex.
Demodectic mange. The demodex mite lives on the skin of all dogs, and is passed to puppies by their dam. In healthy dogs, this mite causes no problems. However, demodectic mange can occur when a dog has a weakened or compromised immune system. The American Academy of Veterinary Dermatology passed a resolution in 1983 suggesting that all dogs that develop generalised demodex should be neutered or spayed as there is a genetic link to the development of generalised demodectic mange.
Demodectic mange can occur in localised form, which is characterised by a few spots that do not itch. These patchs usually appear on head, neck and fore limbs. Ninety percent of those puppies that develop localised demodex will heal on their own. Ten percent of those puppies will go on to have generalised demodex.
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
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When you have a known problem Why would you want to catgorize your self with one being one of "THOSE KIND" of breeders. and produce puppies with problems...sounds like an uncaring breeder to me.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Jim,
I don't know if you ever saw the thread over on shorthair.net, but there was a rescue over there that had Generalized Demodex that took many months to get fixed up, lots of Vet bills and lots of meds. There were a number of pix of the poor dog and a long drawn out story of what it took to get that dog to where it could even enjoy life by the rescue person who saved her. It might not be a bad idea to print out that thread and let him read it for himself..... it may just be enough for him to reconsider his "Cowboy" Vets opinion.
I'll see if I can't come up with the link for you.
Ps. It's not even so much about his reputation as it is, what the poor dogs will go through for the rest of their lives.......
I don't know if you ever saw the thread over on shorthair.net, but there was a rescue over there that had Generalized Demodex that took many months to get fixed up, lots of Vet bills and lots of meds. There were a number of pix of the poor dog and a long drawn out story of what it took to get that dog to where it could even enjoy life by the rescue person who saved her. It might not be a bad idea to print out that thread and let him read it for himself..... it may just be enough for him to reconsider his "Cowboy" Vets opinion.
I'll see if I can't come up with the link for you.
Ps. It's not even so much about his reputation as it is, what the poor dogs will go through for the rest of their lives.......
Bruce Shaffer
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain
Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain
Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)
Jim, Here you go. This is a tough link for anyone to read through without some emotion for this poor GSP.
http://www.shorthairs.net/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
http://www.shorthairs.net/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
Bruce Shaffer
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain
Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten"
Mark Twain
Bruce, Raine, Storm and GSP's
Almost Heaven GSP's
"In Search of the Perfect GSP";)
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Wow...poor pup....
and come to think of it...I Thankfully have never come across a vet that would be ignorant enough to tell a person it is OK to breed a gyp which is passing democtic mange to her pups...
And yes I will go that far to say that....any medical reports you bring up on that kind of mange tells you to spay or neuter those animals....
and come to think of it...I Thankfully have never come across a vet that would be ignorant enough to tell a person it is OK to breed a gyp which is passing democtic mange to her pups...
And yes I will go that far to say that....any medical reports you bring up on that kind of mange tells you to spay or neuter those animals....
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
every dog in the world that ever has pups passes demodectic mange on to those pups. the problem arises when the pups immune system, for whatever reason, is too weak to prevent the mange from overgrowing and becoming a severe problem. this could be due to genetics or something totally unrelated, like poor nutrition or poor housing, etc. unfortunatly no way to tell from one case to another if it is because of a genetic defect or not.
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Kurzhaar
Dog Dr.:dog dr wrote:every dog in the world that ever has pups passes demodectic mange on to those pups. the problem arises when the pups immune system, for whatever reason, is too weak to prevent the mange from overgrowing and becoming a severe problem. this could be due to genetics or something totally unrelated, like poor nutrition or poor housing, etc. unfortunatly no way to tell from one case to another if it is because of a genetic defect or not.
I agree with your assessment. However, in this case with 5 of 16 puppies rasied in different environements throughout the USA expressing the problem one would have to assume that it is genetic.
Jim
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kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
When a female passing on to a pup the mange..and the pups come down with it ...more often then not i see it being the immune system...
in general dirty conditions and poor feed infected otehr dogs my vets find to be scarcopitc mange not democtic mange at fault. which is much easier to treat on a general rule..
Just about Every vet I have spoken with on related subject say to spay the female that is passing the weak trait....Specially IF your planning on being a serious breeder...Why wouldn't you want to cull that weakness...If i had that many pups show up with a problem There is something WRONG which needs to be addressed and no longer breeding the bitch would be the first part of being a responsible breeder.
To many dogs out there that do not have issues with pups to continue breeding on that does pass on undesired issues
I say promote responsible breeding practices...do not pass on known problems...just what the rescue programs need more unwanted animals with issues...
.BE a responsible breeder do what you can to promote healthy breedings
in general dirty conditions and poor feed infected otehr dogs my vets find to be scarcopitc mange not democtic mange at fault. which is much easier to treat on a general rule..
Just about Every vet I have spoken with on related subject say to spay the female that is passing the weak trait....Specially IF your planning on being a serious breeder...Why wouldn't you want to cull that weakness...If i had that many pups show up with a problem There is something WRONG which needs to be addressed and no longer breeding the bitch would be the first part of being a responsible breeder.
To many dogs out there that do not have issues with pups to continue breeding on that does pass on undesired issues
I say promote responsible breeding practices...do not pass on known problems...just what the rescue programs need more unwanted animals with issues...
.BE a responsible breeder do what you can to promote healthy breedings
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
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QCBirddogs
Jim,
Make that 6! And I have another from that litter coming in soon for training.....We Will see how she is making out.
The immune system keeps the mites at bay in a normall dog. As you know, and was afore mentioned...alll dogs have mange mites, just not active to a clinical point.
One dog with mange does not an immune problem make....6 in a litter is a RED flag.
My dog out of this litter....was aquired for a prospective mate to one of Fine's pups....... as it stands Right now.....his future as a perspective Stud will be "neutered" and his testing carreer came to an abrupt hault.
Shame to...as he was working through his training with flying colors.
Call me, if you want more information. As I will be contacting the breeder as well.
Phil
Make that 6! And I have another from that litter coming in soon for training.....We Will see how she is making out.
The immune system keeps the mites at bay in a normall dog. As you know, and was afore mentioned...alll dogs have mange mites, just not active to a clinical point.
One dog with mange does not an immune problem make....6 in a litter is a RED flag.
My dog out of this litter....was aquired for a prospective mate to one of Fine's pups....... as it stands Right now.....his future as a perspective Stud will be "neutered" and his testing carreer came to an abrupt hault.
Shame to...as he was working through his training with flying colors.
Call me, if you want more information. As I will be contacting the breeder as well.
Phil
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DK Dogs
I have a female from this litter that is one of the dogs that had this problem. I will not breed her and as it looks from talking to a good friend he would be happy to make her part of his family. I wish for both me and the dog that we didnt have to deal with this problem. Expensive vet visits and two months of lost training.
