Gun Dog Forum

I have read studies from Purina that to lessen the chance for soft tissue injuries that one should use a dog food with 20% fat. To get 20% fat one needs to go to a higher protein content as well (that is all that is available). I thought (think) I made a smart move by going to a puppy food with 29% protein and 20% fat and it is listed as an "all life stages" dog food. I hunt 5-6 days per week and my dogs hunt 3 hours at a time which means they cover 18-23 miles per day. This is a premium dog food. Can (will) this puppy food provide for stamina over the season? Others have suggested that their bear dogs (mine are bird dogs) last best on the cheaper low-fat, low-protein foods--is that possible? Should I go back to a 26-16 ?

Try it and see what results you get, it's the only you will know.

As Mike said, it all comes down to how your dogs do on it. ALS foods work well for pups to old dogs for the most part. There are adult feeds that have high fat/protein as well, but most seem to be als formulas today. A few companies also make a 24/20 food and many people like it.

I kinda believe in the old addage, "You are what you eat" and I think it applies to dogs too. I may be wrong but I just can't believe that the cheap stuff is not made from cheap stuff. I know the guys from Vienna sausage plant I call on always say, "Don't buy the cheap potted meat. Buck up and by the brand name." Just seems that if you expect top notch performance from your dog that you would put top notch food in it.

But how does top notch feed have anything to do with feeding puppy food?

Ezzy

Arliegh Reynolds conducted the Purina study. A sled dog enthusiast, his nutritional research almost cut the the amount of time it takes the mushers to run the Iditarod in half.

Dogs running as yours are need a sound nutritional program. If I were you I would read everything that Arliegh has published on canine nutrition and conditioning. Since he is a musher, a lot of his writings can be found on sled dog sites and magazines.

I use tea spoon of cooking oil mixed in with food or stew gravy plenty of protein. Giving puppy food to an adult dog I would be afraid of turning their stomachs.

ezzy333 wrote:But how does top notch feed have anything to do with feeding puppy food?

Ezzy

I was referring to the OP's comments on "premium" food verse "cheaper" food. For clarity's sake, I would and do opt to feed a higher quality food. Reasons: Feed less during non-demanding times of year, do not have to switch between two foods and worry about digestive problems, feel that premium foods probably use higher quality ingredients, have had terrific results with performance and health, dogs like it.

If you have ever pulled 4-5 bags of puppy food off the rack and compared them to 4-5 adult all age food, you will find the percentages are nearly identical. Example: Pro Plan Puppy verse Pro Plan Performance has .3% difference in calcium level if memory serves. I am in favor of feeding either as long as the quality is there.

My dogs do better on a 32/25 diet then they do on 26/16. I don't mind backing the portions down during the off season. Hard working dogs need the fat for energy and the protein for recovery.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:My dogs do better on a 32/25 diet then they do on 26/16. I don't mind backing the portions down during the off season. Hard working dogs need the fat for energy and the protein for recovery.

All you are listing is the percent in the feed. How the dog does or how much it is consuming is determined by how much you are feeding. The amount on the label has nothing to do with how a dog is doing so there is no magical number that a dog does better on. If you feed a pound of the 32/25 or a 1 1/4 of the 26/16b the dog would be consuming the same amount. But it is doubtful the dog needs that much and would end up with loose stools or worse. You could feed a puppy food but adults do not need it and you would need to cut back the amount of feed. You also could end up with too much calcium and phosphorus.

Ezzy

My dogs get more placements on the higher protein/ fat ratios and I don't have to feed as much. I'm a results kinda guy so nobody can convince me otherwise.

Also when dogs are running 7 days a week they need a higher fat/ protein diet. If I feed more food of lesser numbers, I only increase the over feeding problems without the performance benefits. It's not rocket science and you only have to look at what mushers feed to know what the ultimate K9 athletes will benefit from.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Also when dogs are running 7 days a week they need a higher fat/ protein diet. If I feed more food of lesser numbers, I only increase the over feeding problems without the performance benefits. It's not rocket science and you only have to look at what mushers feed to know what the ultimate K9 athletes will benefit from.

What the mushers feed their dogs that are working all day in severe cold and then many times sleeping out on the snow is a far cry from what your or my dogs need. The musher that comes down to our library every year for the kids ouiting feeds Loyall but carries a cooker and raw meat on the trail. They don't take dry kibble with them on the sleds. Too much weight.

Ezzy

They take supplements like Kronch and other pre digested supplements that are high in protein and fat but don't take up much space. They get digested much faster then bulky foods. It only aids in their recovery.

The simple answer is...


Most puppy formulas are simply a performance type food with high protein and fat and slightly lower protein and fat for lg brd puppies.

As long as you meet the criteria for growth by the AAFCO it can be called Puppy the same food can also be listed as Performance. There is where the ALS (All Life Stage) formulas appear. If it is formulated to the AAFCO specifications it can be called All Life Stage because it is good basic nutrition.

The biggest difference is the name on the bag.

Well my season is over and 3 of my 4 had no issues with the puppy food. The oldest English setter (7.5 years) would run out of gas after 2.5 hours and 16 miles. Normally he was full speed ahead for as long as I went. But it also could have been age. I intend to keep feeding the premium edge puppy year around. It is listed as an all life stage formula , the ingredients and the protein and fats are fine. Unless the price goes goofy like the canidae I see no reason to give up something good for an unknown.

Luminary Setters wrote:Arliegh Reynolds conducted the Purina study. A sled dog enthusiast, his nutritional research almost cut the the amount of time it takes the mushers to run the Iditarod in half.

Dogs running as yours are need a sound nutritional program. If I were you I would read everything that Arliegh has published on canine nutrition and conditioning. Since he is a musher, a lot of his writings can be found on sled dog sites and magazines.

While AR is an important person, he was in diapers when Kronfeld and Downey (Annamaet) were at Penn doing endurance work. Downey produced (and still produces) a 32/20 years before Purina did. I think if you asked AR he would give at least some credit to those two guys, just a bit. :roll:

Also, I believe the soft tissue studies dealt with protein of 26%, not fat.

Many top mushers carry dry kibble on the sled, they will often start off with a cooler of dry mixed with cold water so it soaks into a firm kibble. For instance, Dallas Seavey does and he won the Iditarod last year; I bet all of the top ten finishers did last year. They also do feed a lot of fatty meat in addition to this.

It is about changing the ability of the mitochindria at the cell level to become more efficient, which you can do with a hugh fat diet. More fat in the diet encourages these mitochondria to burn energy more efficiently and allows for more efficient metabolism. Takes several months to do that, thus that is why you want to feed a high fat food months in advance of when training starts. Young or old, it works that way. Dogs can only consume 3.5% of their body weight in food a day, so you need a concentrated energy source on a per weight basis to do so.

Again, if everyone is on one food type you cannot assess how it might be different. A 32/25 type food like someone suggested makes a lot of sense and with proper training and genetics I bet beats out other equally conditioned dogs. Start something like this in the offseason and you watch how the dogs do in training and competition. It is pretty amazing to see the change.

Arleigh has done a lot of great work out there, the only nutritionist I have known to run dogs, also a vet, so I listen to him. He runs sprint races, even one similar to a hunting dogs' burst of energy than a distance dog. Another visionary of athletics in dogs this way is Mike Davis of Oklahoma State. Read his stuff if you can.

Sled dogs have honestly changed a lot about how we look at athletics and performance in dogs and you can draw some parallels from them to every other dog. The last 10 years have been exciting in the field.