Price of GWP Puppies

[Line]

I'm not going to give a pedigree or a breeder's name as I wish for the breeder to remain anonymous. The breeder is a Senior NAVHDA Judge and is well known and respected throughout the fraternity.
The Sire is a Versatile Champion
The Dam is a UT Prize I and will be attending this years Invitational.
The breeder's only request is that I have the dog tested for his Natural Ability. I do plan to test the dog all the way through. The breeder lives about 50 miles from me and he will play an important role as a source of information and guidance when comes to the training. Both dogs come from German Bloodlines starting with their grandparents and both dogs are a result of his breeding plan.

My feelings are rather simple no puppy on this green earth is worth more the $700 I don't care how it's bred. That's an investment that you can lose on. You can take the 2 Versatile Champions and end up with a litter of 4 legged, non-hunting, excessively bushy and lazy dogs. Statistically you shouldn't' and you probably won't but please don't say it will never happen.

So, what do you guys think what is a well bred puppy worth? What's the most you would pay?
What would you expect to pay?

[Ayres]

$700 wouldn't get you a vizsla pup in Illinois. These little boogers are expensive. I think you might be able to get one with that in Iowa though.

That being said, that's my point. The price for a pup will probably vary regionally.

[grant]

So, what do you guys think what is a well bred puppy worth? What's the most you would pay?
What would you expect to pay?

I've paid $700, and i've felt that the pup was worth far more than that. I guess I measure value by what someone is willing to pay for something.

I've only sold one dog, but I found that if I had a started dog for sale at 1K a hunter may buy it, but someone who wants that dog as a pet could careless about whoa, fetch, etc.... Hence the dog is only worth $500 to a pet owner.

Just my thoughts...

[Line]

You brought out the point out that I was alluding to. A STARTED dog is worth $1000-$1500 and I believe that and I would pay that. You also realize a started dog is exactly that, started, he understands basic commands, you can bring him home and work with him that day if you want. He's also is probably at least 1yr old.
Why is a started dog worth more, because, YOU KNOW IT WORKS you don't know if a puppy will work. So how can you say a puppy is worth only $300 less then a started dog. Do the math, you're saying the time and effort a breeder puts into a puppy to make it a started dog is only worth $300-$800 you could spend $300 dollars on dog food alone. The time is priceless people by nature will pay a little more to get what they want. How many started dogs do you see for sale @ $2500 not many why because people will pay a little more they don't want to be rip off.


Let's say the dog you think was worth more then $700 lets say that dog didn't do pooh. Sat on his hind all day licking up crumbs and when he does his retrieves they're week and he's not direct to the command. Believe me you wouldn't think it was worth more you'd probably say it was a poor investment.

To Ayres: I don't believe region has anything to with it because if your looking for QUALITY your shopping papers and performance not a region and breeders no what people will pay. So, the standard is pretty consistant from East to West and if people pay a ton more then they were dealing with puppy peddler and they must not have known what they're doing.

All I'm trying to get at is why is a puppy so expensive it hasn't proved anything other then it'll crap, sleep and eat and occasionally throw a natural point.

I've already laid my deposit on the pup and the breeding hasn't even happened yet so I've made an investment on papers and performance. I said it before papers don't make the dog they only provide a stable base if the pups take after the parents you're good but if don't you're butt out.

[icefire]

my current litter of pups (gsp's) are $750., we recently paid $800 for a 1 1/2 year old dog that had rarely even been out of the kennel, not only not started but not socialized, house broken or crate trained. long story but I am glad and was lucky to get her for that. had been trying to get the dog for6 months. the true value of a dog is a combination of what the least is that someone will take for it and the most that someone will pay for it. there are show dogs out there that are "worth" thousands that i would not spend a dime on. it comes down to how bad do you want it and how bad do they want to get rid of it? people will pay for quality, with a LOT of shorthair puppies in the $250 to $500 range, the fact that i can sell them for $750 means that serious people are more interested in what they are getting then what they are paying. I have seen little pet quality puppies (chi's/pugs ect) go for $1000 plus. some of those $250 shorthairs are great dogs and some of the expensive ones (not mine of course :) ) are worthless!

[Colleen]

Haha. Hahaha. I loooove this debate. Someone on another forum one time basically implied that my dog is worthless and inbred because I only paid $300 for him. Haha again. He is worth much more than that to me, but I don't regret for a second that I didn't have to sell a kidney to buy him. He's been easy to train, loves water, will retrieve till he keels over from heat stroke, has a great nose, isn't gunshy, and is the most lovey dog I know. And good-lookin to boot. As a matter of fact, several people who have his littermates, myself included, are going back for a second pup from this breeder, and word of mouth has brought enough interest that he is breeding two litters to be ready early fall. All for these cheap, worthless, inbred pups.

Yes, as a general rule you get what you pay for, but nothing is a guarantee. And I do think Ayres has a point about region. I think a big reason my pup wasn't more expensive is because the breeder is just not in an area where people will pay $600-$700 for a dog. I watched an ad for GSP's in hte paper start out asking $600 for their dogs, and a month later they were down to $300.

[Line]

See Colleen someone who drops there price $300 isn't a breeder they're a peddler. When I sell my dogs the older they become the more the price goes up not down. The reason the price goes down is because they can't stand dealing with 5month old pups and the plan to breed to make money backfire and continues to with each passing day. When I do a breeding if I can't sell them for what I'm looking for guess what to words "kennel up" I'll keep em before I start dropping the price becuse the yahoo that didn't wan't to pay $500 is now coming to me to pay $700 for 6-7mon old dog. Breeders can keep every last puppy if they had to peddlers can usually only keep one and drop the price until they're all gone. As for you your a prime example of what I'm getting at you have a wonderful dog that you got inexpensively and he works great for you. His pedigree might not speak volumes but he's a good. You can have a dog that is less of a hunter then yours and if the ped is outstanding people will give more cheddar for it. WHY? Don't tell me oh well your more serious doggers will pay more money. Your off your rocker WE all want good dogs at fair prices. People good bred dogs sell them for big money because they're are yahoos out that will pay for it. We all want good dogs from good stock and breeders know we're a slave to a good dog and so they'llstick it to us.

[Ayres]

Line: Region certainly does have something to do with it, if even just a correlation and not a causation.

I spent a year and a half researching vizslas and several breeders before I eventually picked out a specific breeding and a specific pup. I can tell you from experience, that breeders out on the East Coast will demand $1500 for a vizsla pup with good lines. Bring that in near the Chicago area and you have breeders that demand $1000 - $1200. Take that across the river into Iowa, and the breeders there demand $700 - 900. And then there are breeders out in Arizona and California, but I didn't research that far away.

All of those dogs would come from Championship lines, both in the show ring and in field trials. Many are dual champs. Increasing or decreasing quality isn't a factor.

Basically, a pup is a pup and if it's got the genetics, then the rest can be trained. Breeding a good dog to another good dog results in, with a high degree of certainty, that the offspring will also be good dogs. Some breeders will even guarantee this with their pups, and will refund your cash and take the pup back if you feel otherwise.

I'm with Grant, here, in that something is only worth what you are willing to pay for it and put into it.

[Line]

Vizslas isn't my breed of choice and maybe it's that way with them but I'm going to disagree with you when it come to other breeds.

[emae]

This is interesting. We got our first gwp, from what many would consider-----dare I say it, a backyard breeder. The family who had the litter, wanted a pup from his male and so bred his dogs. The sire and bitch are both hunters and AKC registered. I paid $200 for her. She is BIRD CRAZY to say the least, could care less about gunshot and has a great nose. I don't care much about all the FC,MASTER HUNTER, or all the other titles that go behind a dogs name. Our next pup, we were specificallyl looking for a bigger gwp, granted it took a long time to find one and of course aren't guaranteed to be big, but the sire is 90lbs. So we went w/him and for now is looking like he's going to be a pretty husky dog.
We got him from a breeder, whose dogs don't have titles behind their names. The breeder is an honest, genuine person who loves and hunts his dogs. They are registered and this cost us $400. He is 16 weeks old and is doing great w/obedience and appears to have agreat little nose on him so far. So what do you make of that. 2 "ordinary" dogs who perform great and we actually like them!?!?!?how can that be??? Here's a pic. of our "worthless dogs"
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4 ... 0000001610

[grant]

Here are some of my thoughts etc...

So, what do you guys think a well bred puppy is worth?

The price I would pay for a puppy would depend on my goals. For example, tastes, wants, needs, preferences, and usefulness...

I need a bird dog. I want a GSP from a snips litter. I guess I'm willing to pay the extra cash for what I want... If I can afford it.... I sold off some of my deer hunting equipment to get my pup.

What's the most you would pay?

Market price.

What would you expect to pay?

I expect to pay more for a champion bloodline.

If I had to bet my life on the performance of two dogs, one from some puppy mill, or one from reputable champions, I would bet on the offspring of champions. The main deciding factor would come down to genetics. I paid for reputation and genetics...

Could I be let down, sure. I've seen 2 dumb parents with smart kids, and 2 smart parents with dud kids...

I think supply and demand might be one of the biggest influences in the price of pups.

[Ayres]

I don't want anyone to think that I was advocating the belief that if you don't pay a load for a dog then it's worthless. That's soooo far from what I was saying (and what I believe). Heck, I know quite a few people who have excellent dogs that came from rescue centers or the pound.

All I was saying is that there's regional differences as to what breeders will normally charge for their pups. I don't know why there are these differences, but there are.

As for me, I paid slightly above the cheapest price I could find for my viz. I did this because I was able to communicate with the breeder as he lived hours closer to me, I knew the sire and his owner, and I knew that the dogs were good hunters. The breeding also came highly recommended to me, and it was a second breeding of the same sire and dam. Consequently, I was also able to see a 2 year old pup from the previous breeding, and she was a doll. For those reasons, I felt that paying a slightly higher price was worth it. To some people it wouldn't be worth it, and that's fine. I'm sure I could have gone to the Iowa lines and gotten a gem of a hunter for cheaper, but I would have sacrificed all the things that I mentioned above.

I don't buy into the talk that "breeders only charge what goes into the pup, because when you talk about all that care time, feed, vaccinations and the such..." That just seems like BS to me, because if it were true then almost all pups would be the same price, and there would be no $300 - $700 - $1500 price differences between breeds. But, there is a market for certain breeds and they will sell at a higher price because people will pay it. With that line of thinking, then I guess Line is right in saying that some breeders just want to make some cash. I don't know, though, I'm not a breeder. I just like my dog is all. If everyone likes their own dog, then what's the hurt?

[snips]

I think the price of a quality pup is reflected in what the breeder puts into their bloodlines. Putting the thought and research in to producing a dog someone can compete in different venues, and linebreeding intelligently enough that you could reach into a litter of pups and pick any one of them and have a high instance of getting a good one, to us is worth a little more. Campaigning dogs to title them and prove their worth is not cheap either. Sure, you could pay 300. and get a good pup, but I don`t think a 300. breeder is putting what we do into a litter to EXPECT to get quality from an entire litter.

[icefire]

the sad thing is that at $750/pup people comment that i am making a bunch of money on the pups. I wish i was? this litter has been in the making for 3 years, the reason I did the breeding is because i want the dogs. we are keeping 2-3 of them for ourselves.i would have to breed a lot of pups fairly indescriminatly to make any money at it. that is not what i am about. genetics and effort do put a whole lot of value on a pup though and how the entire line has been bred really can and does make a difference in the pup. you cannot take 2 random "good dogs" and put them together and get the quality and depth of a pup that you can from a good program. even if your f-1 turns out well you have no knowledge of how the positive traits line up or what faults have been bred out. if all you are after is a single dog that does well and you are good at picking pups with a little luck you can have a great dog. if you want to choose from a litter that is very consistent with the qualities that you want and have the ability to pass those qualities on you are taking a huge risk by not purchasing a pup from a proven line bred program. this is all basic genetics.

no, this is not a slam on "cheaper" pups at all. many people want different things in and from their dogs, the beauty of the open market is that with a little research you can find what fits your deisires the best.

[Line]

I'm really glad that I was able to get the opinion and insight from all you guys. Some boards by now would have turned into arguements over ped and why there dogs are better. I'm glad we all kept mature over it.

[sudiegirl]

i do think that some of the reason for the price has to do with supply and demand, but i also think that it has to do with the titles etc on the sire and dam. you can get a ford f 250 that is a great truck and will get you to the grocery store and in and out of your favorite hunting spots. then you can get that f-250 supercab with the extra doors and the heated leather seats, on-star, the dvd player and the fancy toolbox. it will still get you to the grocery store and in and out of your favorite hunting spots, just a little more comfortably. buying a puppy is a gamble, but i think that buying one from a reputable breeder who, at his or her expense, has taken the time to put titles on and tested and hunted his or her dogs makes the risk a little more "comfortable, " as THE BREEDER has already taken the gamble for you, and that is alot of what you are paying for. and yes, this costs money, often ALOT of money!! and more expensive does not mean better dog, but to me, it means that the breeder has tested the lines that they are breeding and selling and can guarantee (often in writing or they will take their puppy back) that you are getting the dog that you want. and if you dont want the dog with guaranteed potential to "go all the way" in the field trials, the show ring, and/or in the field, etc, then dont pay for it. it is all about what you want to get out of your dog. why did you buy him or her in the first place? to me, the difference is that one comes with the gift certificate for the bells and whistles, and the other can have the bells and whistles installed at radio shack later at the owner's expense . both dogs have the potential to have wonderful traits, one is just more likely to already have some of them "included" in the purchase price.

[grant]

Let me cover my butt first. I'm not an economist nor am I a avid dog breeder, but this would justify why I bought my dog for the price I did. =) Now, I have owned bird dogs ranging from $50 - $700, so I'm not bashing anyone...

Here is why I feel that supply and demand affected the price that I bought my dog.

Breeder 1: Breeds dogs as fast as possible for income. Currently has 30 dogs for sale

Breeder 2: Produces the best dogs they feel possible, currently and successfully campaigns dogs in shows and trials, and systematically chooses mates to produce the best genes possible. They currently have 8 pups. This operation is a reputable and well know kennel.

Consumer 1: Does not really care if about dogs pedigree, but just wants a GSP. This consumer doesn't want to spend over $350 for their new pup. There are 30 of these customers.

Consumer 2: Wants the good pedigree and is willing to pay at least $700 for the dog that comes from champion bloodlines. There are 30 of these customers also.

Because the Breeder 2's 8 dogs are demanded by 30 people, the price will subsequently rise because, according to the demand relationship, as demand increases, so does the price. Hence, breeder 1 has 30 dogs and has 30 consumer 1s demanding the dogs. They're price is lower because demand is lower.

I feel like I bought my dog at fair market price, because the price had been raised due to demand. I knew this and was willing to make the accommodations to get the dog that I wanted most. If I could just not afford the dog, I would make the adjustments to get less expensive dog.

Does this make any sense?

[Country-Side Breeders]

There are a lot of factors that go into determining the price of pups...region, lines, supply/demand as well as reputation. I agree most with the region, which does go hand in hand with supply/demand. A person raising pups in an area in which the dogs aren't going to be able to be utilized as well as pups in an area that can be utilized year round isn't going to get the same price as the other. You also have to take into account the economic level in the area that the pups are coming from...small town area with few secure jobs vs. big towns/citites where the economy is stable for most living there. I'm not saying that rural breeders aren't going to get anything for their pups, I'm saying that if the money isn't there, you can't sell for as much as a person living in an area with lots of money. However, living in a small area and with the reputation, you can get what they're worth because the pups are often times sold before they are born, and most times out of the area.

Lines/background also play an important role. You aren't going to pay the same price for a champion lined dog as you are for the "Average Joe". Many people buy on lines only and are willing to pay for them.

Bottom line...is the dog worth the price to you?????? Everyone has a different idea/opinion as to what a dog should be worth. That's what you need to go on.

[grant]

If I could just not afford the dog, I would make the adjustments to get less expensive dog.

I'm quoting myself. I was re-reading the posts and that made me sound like I had some $$. I wish!

I sold all of this on ebay to get my new pup:
- Deer Stand
- Hoyt Bow
- Carl "GSP" "Sold to friend"
- Power Supply for computer
- Software for video editing
- a few more small things

hahahaha, little Kage is all worth it!

The things we do for our pets huh.....hahahahha

Grant

[sdgord]

Line, you basically answered all your own questions with the fact that the breeder is 50 miles from you. Is a NAVDA judge and should know what a decent dog should be. He is also there to help with your training questions. IMHO you are getting a pup at a fair price a pup with the "potential" that you are looking for. Can you get a pup for less money with as much potential? Yes but you may have to go through a few of them to get the results you want. In short the price you pay for a pup should reflect the amount of time and care that went into the parents and the litter when on the ground. I think that the breeder, with all the costs associated with breeding a quality litter did not break even. SDGORD

[Rubyspal]

This has been a great thread to read! Some very good points have been brought up both to justify a higher priced pup and to justify sticking with a backyard breeder with lower prices. Both can and do produce good dogs. I have owned dogs that came from both sides of the coin.

20 years ago I was a backyard breeder of GSPs in Washington State and the highest I ever charged for a pup was $175, even when I bred my solid hunting stock female to a HT titled sire. They produced some great family pets that hunted their tails off for their owners. We only bred once every two to three years and had repeat buyers often. Since those Shorthairs have long passed on to the fields in the sky I have stopped breeding and just do my research and purchase what I feel to be the right pup for me when I am ready for a new charge.

I have paid $500 to $600 for a pup and would pay more if thats what it cost to get the pup I wanted. The way I look at it the initial cost difference in the pup is insignificant when looking at the total cost of ownership over the life of a dog. So why not do your research and get the best pup you can for your needs. That certainly doesn't mean that you buy the most expensive pup you find, it just means that you get the best pup for your circumstance.
Given that all the health certifications have been done and that you are comfortable with the guarantee if there is one given.
Sorry for being long winded.
All this talk makes me want another pup....
Pat

[msparks]

Maybe you can think of it this way.

Say you are paying $300 for the dog and $400 for the nearby experise of a top NAVHDA trainer/judge.

Heck I would gladly pay $400 for someone who lived that close and was willing to work with me!!!

BTW I paid $800 for my GSP and $2000 for my Bracco, and I don't regret it one bit.

The amount that I paid I feel went to the breeders who have put in over 30 years of a quality breeding program with several top BIS winners, Master hunters and more. They are only interested in bettering the breed and not just breeding worthless dogs. Secondly my dogs are guarenteed for the common definciencies associted with the breed, Eyes, hips and thyroids for the GSP. So $800 seems likes small changed compared to the Basset hound that I paid $150 for several years ago then spent over $600 on surgury to correct a breed deficiency that the stupid (AKC) breed knowingly breed anyhow.

Hope this helps.