Good 30/20 dog food?

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Double Shot Banks
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Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Double Shot Banks » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:16 pm

I probably wont be switching dog food for a while, until banks is a year old atleast.
But i am considering a good 30/20 dog food, but all the "name brands" are 45-55 bucks for a 33lb bag,
I did some looking and a 40lb bad of Diamond dog food is 30bucks, is this a good brand? i dont want to buy bad cheap food, but the GA looks the same and the others are "name brands" such as Eukanuba, Loyall, Iams
Thanks,
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Angus » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:26 pm

Check out Pro Pac. Great food from a good company.

Sportmix is made by the same company. It to is a good food and a bit cheaper than Pro Pac.

There are many good foods out there cheaper than Grocery Brands and Diamond is one of them. Find a feed that you can afford and will be in stock every time you need to buy a new bag. If the dog does well on it then that's all that matters.

Labs do well on just about any food. Don't limit yourself to 30/20 and regulate the amount fed.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MonsterDad » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:33 pm

Victor makes a great line of foods as well. There are lots of choices and the price is right.

Most Victor foods are about $.75lb.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by magspa » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:04 pm

My dogs and I really like 4health from tractor supply. $37 for 35lbs

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:13 pm

I'm still feeding The Pride 26/20 Pro Blend & 30/20 Puppy Blend but also reccomened for dogs of high stress.$26 for 50 lb bags.I 'm still waiting on that BIG price hike everyone told me was comming when the Loyall feed I was feeding jumped by 5 to $7 a bag.I'm sure it's comming sooner or later but doubt it will be close to that amount.My dogs don't seem to know any different all doing fine & seem to be more enthusiastic about eating it!!

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by lvrgsp » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:55 pm

Unless your running banks hard hard during the hunting/trial season I would say 30/20 may be a bit overkill....At anyrate I would suggest what ever brand you choose, try and find a large breed puppy/adult feed for Banks.

Now some folks on here will scoff at that, and so be it, but that would be my reccomendation. Find something that works for her and your budget and should be good to go. A good 26/18 would be more than adequate IMO......


Good luck and Have fun

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by brad27 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:28 pm

lvrgsp wrote:Unless your running banks hard hard during the hunting/trial season I would say 30/20 may be a bit overkill....At anyrate I would suggest what ever brand you choose, try and find a large breed puppy/adult feed for Banks.

Now some folks on here will scoff at that, and so be it, but that would be my reccomendation. Find something that works for her and your budget and should be good to go. A good 26/18 would be more than adequate IMO......


Good luck and Have fun
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:18 am

Huge fan of Sportmix here. I am not sure how your area is priced, but in my area it is 24$ for a 44lb bag (almost every time but 1 there has been 6 free lbs too), I have turned a few people in my area onto it and they love it also.

Corry

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Back » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:16 am

Pro Plan Performance... I think it's worth the money.

Plus you can turn in the weight circle and get rebate checks back that help out on the cost...

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Doc E » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:44 am

Different dogs do better or worse on different foods.
Find one that works for you and stick with it.



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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by art hubbard » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:18 am

how about Costcos chicken & rice, seems to have good ingrediants and their stores are everywhere...

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Double Shot Banks » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:19 am

I know it could be an overkill, but i dont really want to keep trying different foods to see what is best for him and me, He is only a hunting dog, no tests or trials but i want him to be the best he can.
Isaac and Banks.
Although i like how he looks now, on a mix of Iams and some my dad had left over, nearly the same GA
My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:31 am

Double Shot Banks wrote:I know it could be an overkill, but i dont really want to keep trying different foods to see what is best for him and me, He is only a hunting dog, no tests or trials but i want him to be the best he can.
Isaac and Banks.
Although i like how he looks now, on a mix of Iams and some my dad had left over, nearly the same GA
You are not going to change his performance by changing from one good food to another unless there is a serious nutritional problem and that is very unlikely. Thats like saying you would healthier eating chicken insteadof turkey.

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Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by wildwindgundogs » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:48 pm

We feed SportMIX Energy Plus 24/20 year round and have great success with it. The quality of the food is great, dogs have gloss healthy coats, dogs weight maintain very well year round and I find dog aren't get injuries during trials, hunting and training. I pay around $30 per 50 lb bag. I feed 4 cups to a 50 lbs dog through the winter and 2-3 cups throughout the rest of the year. SportMIX is made by Midwestern Pet Food they also make Pro PAC, Earthborn dog foods.
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by duckn66 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:20 pm

I switched to Diamond chicken and rice. I think its 26/16. My dogs have been doing very well on it. I had to adjust their feeding amounts and now have what I think is the right amount for each dog. I do think that their stools are a little on the soft side on this feed though which can sometimes be a mess. But, so far I am pleased with it and the dogs look and perform good.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:47 pm

I am glad that I learned that its not about price per pound, but about ingredients and and nutritional values. Dont get me wrong there are a lot of hi priced feeds that meet these standards, but you could get some stuff that is 50bux for a 40lb bag, and some stuff that is 25 for a 50lb bag and the dog would perform the same.

Corry

P.S. I really dont want my comment to start a debate about why this hi dollar food is better than this mid dollar food, I just wanted to throw that little bit of info out there.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:47 pm

Ghosted3 wrote:I am glad that I learned that its not about price per pound, but about ingredients and and nutritional values. Dont get me wrong there are a lot of hi priced feeds that meet these standards, but you could get some stuff that is 50bux for a 40lb bag, and some stuff that is 25 for a 50lb bag and the dog would perform the same.

Corry

P.S. I really dont want my comment to start a debate about why this hi dollar food is better than this mid dollar food, I just wanted to throw that little bit of info out there.
Not sure what you are trying to say but that might be a good way to avoid an argument.
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:55 am

I switched to Sportmix as well 6 months back. I have been very pleased. It is much more economical than what i was feeding before and was recommended to me by someone else who had a very good opinion of the feed quality.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MikeB » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:35 am

Banks,
Your comment "he's only a hunting dog". .... but you want him to be the best he can be. What the heck does that mean?
I think most would agree our dogs are first and formost a family pet and companion 80%, and a hunting dog 20%.
Well Iams doesn't make a performance 30/20 food only Eukanuba does staying in the same family. If when he is grown and he needs more energy to be only a hunting dog then you may have to change food. He may do just fine on Iams adult chunk 26/16.
There is nothing wrong with changing food to see if you can better your dogs health or performance if needed. I am sure their are many other brands that may be more cost effective than the major brands.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by nanney1 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:23 am

Iams has a new 29/18 Sporting Dog formula that can be purchased at Walmart. I don't know anything about it though. $37.88 for a 35lb bag at my local Walmart.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MonsterDad » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:36 am

I am sure many Labs do well on 30/20 foods but that wouldn't be my first choice for a Lab, or similar breeds. I would use a food with about 30% protein and much lower fat.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Double Shot Banks » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:34 pm

MikeB wrote:Banks,
Your comment "he's only a hunting dog". .... but you want him to be the best he can be. What the heck does that mean?
I think most would agree our dogs are first and formost a family pet and companion 80%, and a hunting dog 20%.
Well Iams doesn't make a performance 30/20 food only Eukanuba does staying in the same family. If when he is grown and he needs more energy to be only a hunting dog then you may have to change food. He may do just fine on Iams adult chunk 26/16.
There is nothing wrong with changing food to see if you can better your dogs health or performance if needed. I am sure their are many other brands that may be more cost effective than the major brands.
What i meant was, i want him to be full of energy all day, but i will not rely on his performance ie in a field trial or hunt test
Isaac and Banks
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Onk » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:17 pm

Have nothing bad to say about Diamond at all, only switched because of the gas issue it caused with one of the dogs ( the inside dog)! No matter the amount fed this dog became a fart machine, other dogs had no issues at all. Feed what works for your budget and does the dog good...no need spending big bucks!
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Maurice » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:16 pm

Carolina Gundogs wrote:I switched to Sportmix as well 6 months back. I have been very pleased. It is much more economical than what i was feeding before and was recommended to me by someone else who had a very good opinion of the feed quality.
ditto on the Sportmix food. I have fed it for several years. The dogs do well on it.

Mo

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:56 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:I know it could be an overkill, but i dont really want to keep trying different foods to see what is best for him and me, He is only a hunting dog, no tests or trials but i want him to be the best he can.
Isaac and Banks.
Although i like how he looks now, on a mix of Iams and some my dad had left over, nearly the same GA
You are not going to change his performance by changing from one good food to another unless there is a serious nutritional problem and that is very unlikely. Thats like saying you would healthier eating chicken insteadof turkey.

Essy
I will argue that point. I have noticed a difference in my setter's performance with different foods. I've fed good quality grain free food and she didn't have the stamina as a performance (30/20) food with corn. The difference was most noticeable with stamina.


I've fed Diamond Performance to my hunting and hunting/trial dogs and had very good results. I am currently trying a different food since we're in the off season, but come March I'll be going back to a "hotter" food. The food I'm considering trying if Diamond Performance keep jumping in price is called Red Paw. The owner of the Feed store I get my food from said Red Paw is supposed help the dog run cooler. I need to see how my dog performs before I believe that claim, but I hadn't heard that claim before about a dog food brand.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by slistoe » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:13 pm

Grange wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:I know it could be an overkill, but i dont really want to keep trying different foods to see what is best for him and me, He is only a hunting dog, no tests or trials but i want him to be the best he can.
Isaac and Banks.
Although i like how he looks now, on a mix of Iams and some my dad had left over, nearly the same GA
You are not going to change his performance by changing from one good food to another unless there is a serious nutritional problem and that is very unlikely. Thats like saying you would healthier eating chicken insteadof turkey.

Essy
I will argue that point. I have noticed a difference in my setter's performance with different foods. I've fed good quality grain free food and she didn't have the stamina as a performance (30/20) food with corn. The difference was most noticeable with stamina.
But Ezzy said switching from "one good food to another" and then you said "grain free food". :roll:

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:35 pm

Grain free can be an issue.

Corry

*Edit* I know there is a big debate that has been going on about either change up to a higher protein/fat food or feed more of the same feed for bird season or trial season. I personally go with the more feed method. I also believe that foods like 30/20 and the few that are even higher than that should only be fed to the dogs that are working constantly like trial dogs who work hard both during trials and are hammering it in the off season trying to get better.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:55 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grange wrote: I will argue that point. I have noticed a difference in my setter's performance with different foods. I've fed good quality grain free food and she didn't have the stamina as a performance (30/20) food with corn. The difference was most noticeable with stamina.
But Ezzy said switching from "one good food to another" and then you said "grain free food". :roll:

Grain free food can be good quality food. I don't think a blanket statement like the one Essy made is always true.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:41 pm

Grange wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Grange wrote: I will argue that point. I have noticed a difference in my setter's performance with different foods. I've fed good quality grain free food and she didn't have the stamina as a performance (30/20) food with corn. The difference was most noticeable with stamina.
But Ezzy said switching from "one good food to another" and then you said "grain free food". :roll:

Grain free food can be good quality food. I don't think a blanket statement like the one Essy made is always true.
Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:37 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.
I've compared some of the major 30/20 foods and can say I've noticed a difference. From the amount of food I had to feed to the endurance on long training run.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:36 pm

Grange, mind if I ask what foods you have checked out?

Corry

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:59 pm

Pro Plan Performance, Diamond Performance, Nutrisource Performance, Loyall, Diamond Extreme Athlete are the brands I tried multiple bags. All of these are or close to 30/20. The brand I actually thought worked the best for my setter was Diamond Performance. Pro Plan Performance is also good, but I noticed a difference in endurance on long training runs. Nutrisource is a good food and fellow trialer really likes that food, but for me it seemed like I had to feed my lab more food compared to the other brands. I noticed no benefit Diamond Extreme Athlete and if anything I remember thinking my setter had a little more "pep" with Diamond Performance.

As I said earlier I'm thinking of trying Red Paw for the Spring trial season.
Last edited by Grange on Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:00 pm

Grange wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.
I've compared some of the major 30/20 foods and can say I've noticed a difference. From the amount of food I had to feed to the endurance on long training run.
The dog pulls energy from what is stored in the body and what the dog ate to store that energy is unimportant. The only place the feed enters into the immediate equation is if you were feeding a feed that allowed the dog to be deficient in some essential element that is needed. Over time that can happen but is very unlikely. And you normally wouldn't see it from a recent change of feed. What you are describing can happen over weeks and more likely months. Can't say what you are doing but in most cases our long training runs are not that hard on our dogs. May be hard on us though.

I am sure you can see a difference in the long range health of a dog if you have fed a feed for several months but if you are feeding a good quality feed I doubt if you would be able to see anything sooner with out very controlled and structured tests done in a lab.

There may be other reasons you see a difference but it is doubtful it is strictly feed related.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:12 pm

Grange wrote:I've fed Pro Plan Performance, Diamond Performance, Nutrisource Performance, Loyall, Diamond Extreme Athlete are among the brand that are or close to 30/20. The brand I actually thought worked the best for my setter was Diamond Performance. Pro Plan Performance is also good, but I noticed a difference in endurance on long training runs. Nutrisource is a good food and fellow trialer really likes that food, but for me it seemed like I had to feed my lab more food compared to the other brands. I noticed no benefit Diamond Extreme Athlete and if anything I remember thinking my setter had a little more "pep" with Diamond Performance.

As I said earlier I'm thinking of trying Red Paw for the Spring trial season.


If you are going to see a difference from that many feeds I hope your tests have been ongoing for several years. Did you take into consideration of the weather and temperature changes while you were doing these tests? Were the housing and activity levels the same? How long was each feed fed? Did you weigh or measure the feed? And how did you measure the pep and endurance? I know if it is dry or wet underfoot makes a terrific difference, the firmness of the surface the dog is running on, and the amount of cover in height and thickness changes their energy requirements by as much as 30% or more.

These are all things you need to consider that have a great deal more effect on their daily performance than a feed change between feeds that are very much alike.
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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Angus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.

I have to disagree.

Feed what works best for the dog right? I have a dog that cannot eat poultry. Try finding a dog food without poultry in it. Most with poultry contain corn. Ones without poultry are most always the "Grain Free" or "Limited Grain" foods. That dog will run his butt off for 4 hours, take a small break and run another 4 hours when he's healthy. No corn needed.

WHile I will agree chicken meal and whole grain corn meal work well, it's not always true. Absolutes always have a nemesis... :wink:

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:56 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
If you are going to see a difference from that many feeds I hope your tests have been ongoing for several years. Did you take into consideration of the weather and temperature changes while you were doing these tests? Were the housing and activity levels the same? How long was each feed fed? Did you weigh or measure the feed? And how did you measure the pep and endurance? I know if it is dry or wet underfoot makes a terrific difference, the firmness of the surface the dog is running on, and the amount of cover in height and thickness changes their energy requirements by as much as 30% or more.

These are all things you need to consider that have a great deal more effect on their daily performance than a feed change between feeds that are very much alike.
I've been doing this for three years with my setter (I didn't start until she was one year old) and with my lab for about 7 years. For each of the foods listed above I fed each one for about 2 months at a minimum (two large bags) with some brands, like Pro Plan Performance and Diamond Performance longer. I've tried other foods as well, but either didn't give the food a long enough time to evaluate or it was lower in protein and fat so I don't expect the same performance level.

As far as how I measure pep and endurance I like to keep track of the dogs speed, distance covered, animation and time it takes for the dog's overall performance to dip. I tell when there is a performance dip by knowing my dog. Subtle things like the tail carriage or how hard she changes direction or hits cover, or even how much sticks to the trail. I do consider other factors such as temperature and availability of water. So if it was 70 degrees or dry I didn't compare that run to a run in 50 degrees with plenty of water.

It is not a scientific study (I get my fill of scientific studies at work), but I certainly won't buy someone telling me the type of food doesn't matter.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:29 am

Angus wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.

I have to disagree.

Feed what works best for the dog right? I have a dog that cannot eat poultry. Try finding a dog food without poultry in it. Most with poultry contain corn. Ones without poultry are most always the "Grain Free" or "Limited Grain" foods. That dog will run his butt off for 4 hours, take a small break and run another 4 hours when he's healthy. No corn needed.

WHile I will agree chicken meal and whole grain corn meal work well, it's not always true. Absolutes always have a nemesis... :wink:
Sounds to me like you have a very well conditioned animal. Honest question though, do you think that your dog would have more stamina if it could have the whole grain corn meal? *I am not trying to sound like a smart a$$ if it comes off that way* I think people (like you for example) who can not use the whole grain that work with their dogs a lot, train them well, and have them very well conditioned, that will out hunt dogs on say Pro Pac with chicken and whole grains.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MonsterDad » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:35 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Grange wrote:I've fed Pro Plan Performance, Diamond Performance, Nutrisource Performance, Loyall, Diamond Extreme Athlete are among the brand that are or close to 30/20. The brand I actually thought worked the best for my setter was Diamond Performance. Pro Plan Performance is also good, but I noticed a difference in endurance on long training runs. Nutrisource is a good food and fellow trialer really likes that food, but for me it seemed like I had to feed my lab more food compared to the other brands. I noticed no benefit Diamond Extreme Athlete and if anything I remember thinking my setter had a little more "pep" with Diamond Performance.

As I said earlier I'm thinking of trying Red Paw for the Spring trial season.


If you are going to see a difference from that many feeds I hope your tests have been ongoing for several years. Did you take into consideration of the weather and temperature changes while you were doing these tests? Were the housing and activity levels the same? How long was each feed fed? Did you weigh or measure the feed? And how did you measure the pep and endurance? I know if it is dry or wet underfoot makes a terrific difference, the firmness of the surface the dog is running on, and the amount of cover in height and thickness changes their energy requirements by as much as 30% or more.

These are all things you need to consider that have a great deal more effect on their daily performance than a feed change between feeds that are very much alike.
I have to agree with Ezzy on a lot of points. It is virtually impossible to see any health or performance differences in the dog foods we can buy here. Sure stools could be different or palatability could vary from dog to dog, but to say a dog runs faster or longer, or coat is better after 1 bag is a stretch IMO.

I am sure there are some outliers that can't eat poultry, but for 99.99% of dogs we are lucky to have better foods than every country in the world, even the cheaper ones.

When scientists test foods under very stressful conditions they use measures like red blood cell count to judge whether protein is adquate. They don't throw a ball in a field and say "Harry that dog sure runs better on this food".

My priority is production and ingredient safety not so much ingredients. Kibble is a compromise anyway, so even the "best" is not so great.

I have found that foods from one plant at any price level to be better than most because of some productions differences. I have also found Bil Jac for example to be one of the best foods you can buy. I know its expensive compared to Diamond but among the widely available foods, that is one darn good product. Digestion is excellent and palatibility is amazing.

So back to the point, I hear guys say all kinds of casual things about food but most board certified PHD's use foods with by-products and grain, but they insist the foods be made right. Starches have to be cooked completely.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Angus » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:39 am

Ghosted3 wrote:
Angus wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Whether it is true or not you will never know when you compare it to a feed with completely different ingredients. I agree wth you and you probably have seen where I have said that a good feed for active dogs needs corn in it if you want to maintain a dog that is working hard without it losing weight.

A feed without corn is not a particularily good food for working dogs,

I also think you may have a different opinion of a quality food than I. A quality food for an old dog is completely different than a quality food for a pup.

I have to disagree.

Feed what works best for the dog right? I have a dog that cannot eat poultry. Try finding a dog food without poultry in it. Most with poultry contain corn. Ones without poultry are most always the "Grain Free" or "Limited Grain" foods. That dog will run his butt off for 4 hours, take a small break and run another 4 hours when he's healthy. No corn needed.

WHile I will agree chicken meal and whole grain corn meal work well, it's not always true. Absolutes always have a nemesis... :wink:
Sounds to me like you have a very well conditioned animal. Honest question though, do you think that your dog would have more stamina if it could have the whole grain corn meal? *I am not trying to sound like a smart a$$ if it comes off that way* I think people (like you for example) who can not use the whole grain that work with their dogs a lot, train them well, and have them very well conditioned, that will out hunt dogs on say Pro Pac with chicken and whole grains.
I think the stamina comes down to the dog and conditioning more than the food, but all are important in one way or another. Terrain and conditions are also big factors.

I've had good results with Loyall and Pro Pac over the years with my other dogs. Took a year to track down the problem with my Setter pup. Tried several different feeds with mixed results with runny stool. The pup did the best on Pro Pac, but he'd firm up one day and then be loose multiple days. Switched to a Bison based food and his stool firmed up over night so I've stuck with it. Through all of this his stamina didn't change much. He's always loved to run.

My results could be different because he was a growing pup through this and is only 1.5 yo now.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Grange » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:37 am

MonsterDad wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Grange wrote:I've fed Pro Plan Performance, Diamond Performance, Nutrisource Performance, Loyall, Diamond Extreme Athlete are among the brand that are or close to 30/20. The brand I actually thought worked the best for my setter was Diamond Performance. Pro Plan Performance is also good, but I noticed a difference in endurance on long training runs. Nutrisource is a good food and fellow trialer really likes that food, but for me it seemed like I had to feed my lab more food compared to the other brands. I noticed no benefit Diamond Extreme Athlete and if anything I remember thinking my setter had a little more "pep" with Diamond Performance.

As I said earlier I'm thinking of trying Red Paw for the Spring trial season.


If you are going to see a difference from that many feeds I hope your tests have been ongoing for several years. Did you take into consideration of the weather and temperature changes while you were doing these tests? Were the housing and activity levels the same? How long was each feed fed? Did you weigh or measure the feed? And how did you measure the pep and endurance? I know if it is dry or wet underfoot makes a terrific difference, the firmness of the surface the dog is running on, and the amount of cover in height and thickness changes their energy requirements by as much as 30% or more.

These are all things you need to consider that have a great deal more effect on their daily performance than a feed change between feeds that are very much alike.
I have to agree with Ezzy on a lot of points. It is virtually impossible to see any health or performance differences in the dog foods we can buy here. Sure stools could be different or palatability could vary from dog to dog, but to say a dog runs faster or longer, or coat is better after 1 bag is a stretch IMO.

I am sure there are some outliers that can't eat poultry, but for 99.99% of dogs we are lucky to have better foods than every country in the world, even the cheaper ones.

When scientists test foods under very stressful conditions they use measures like red blood cell count to judge whether protein is adquate. They don't throw a ball in a field and say "Harry that dog sure runs better on this food".

My priority is production and ingredient safety not so much ingredients. Kibble is a compromise anyway, so even the "best" is not so great.

I have found that foods from one plant at any price level to be better than most because of some productions differences. I have also found Bil Jac for example to be one of the best foods you can buy. I know its expensive compared to Diamond but among the widely available foods, that is one darn good product. Digestion is excellent and palatibility is amazing.

So back to the point, I hear guys say all kinds of casual things about food but most board certified PHD's use foods with by-products and grain, but they insist the foods be made right. Starches have to be cooked completely.
So, it is impossible to see any performance difference based on the brand of dog food, but Bil Jac is one of the best? Why pay more for Bil Jac if it's impossible to see any performance difference?

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by slistoe » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:16 am

Like grange, I ran informal testing on different foods for my dogs. I concluded that if you are working your dogs hard ( a 40 lb dog dragging 15 lbs of chain at 16 mph average for a 45 min run 3x a week with 2 days of resistance pulling for an hour at varying speeds with 2 days off ) that the dogs did the best if the ration contained by-product meal and corn. Of course there were differences in the quality of performance in 30/20 rations with some of the cheaper ones fueling the dog adequately but the coat sheen fell off which was not acceptable to me because of trying to show the dogs in the show ring at the same time.
Grain free and Lamb meal simply did not get the job done at any level whatsoever - regardless of how much I paid.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by magspa » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:25 am

so is the conclusion that canines perform better on a corn/grain based diet rather than animal protein? I'm no veterinarian but that doesnt really make sense to me.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by slistoe » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:31 am

This is not a thought exercise, it is real world, paws to dirt sense.

And no, the dogs did not do better on a grain based diet - they did dismal on it. But you won't see those foods in a 30/20 format.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MonsterDad » Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:09 am

magspa wrote:so is the conclusion that canines perform better on a corn/grain based diet rather than animal protein? I'm no veterinarian but that doesnt really make sense to me.
There are no corn-based 30/20's or 26/16's for that matter. It is impossible. Corn is about 8% protein. If the whole bag was corn, then, the most the GA protein could be is 8%. Right?

Most 30/20's without corn gluten will get about 90% of protein from meat sources.

When it comes to corn, it has to be ground and cooked properly or else its a pretty horrible ingredient. Fine grinding helps a lot even if the cooking is marginal, but the greatest benefit comes from seperate or slow-cooking the corn.

That is why I have found the foods, any of them, made by Ohio Pet Foods, Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Regal, Blackwood, Dave's, etc to be better foods. Bil Jac I have found to be excellent because the corn is cooked seperately and then pelleted with the meat ingredients. Bil Jac is not a kibble. Some of the nicest coats I have ever seen were on Bil Jac fed dogs. If you spend money on Pro Plan or Eukanuba, then Tim's, Annamaet, Bil-Jac are all in the ball park.

Whether all this is a distinction without a difference is certainly possible. I am not trying to spend other people's money.

Just saying, different companies put more time, money and effort into production and ingredient standards than others. Its up to the individual to decide whats best.

For most of us, if a dog can't run around and hunt for 3-4 hours a day, something else must be wrong. Dr. Tim's Momentum certainly does dominate the racing scene now, for sure, but I am not sure if any dog on here really needs that kind of juice.

My uncle's dogs ate Wayne Doggy O's that oil company delivered and they did ok, not that I would use that but just saying.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:54 pm

I like reading the reviews by the Dog Food Advisor website. They are not afflilited by any company and seem to be quite objective and un opinionated. There are some pretty low cost foods that make their "top" lost and some expensive ones that don't.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by slistoe » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:18 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I like reading the reviews by the Dog Food Advisor website. They are not afflilited by any company and seem to be quite objective and un opinionated. There are some pretty low cost foods that make their "top" lost and some expensive ones that don't.
:roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
As I said, this is not a "thought exercise". I fed two of their five stars feeds and they did not meet the paws to the ground test any better than a bag full of wheat straw and soy meal.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by MonsterDad » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:38 pm

I don't think many people know The Dog Food Advisor is actually a dentist.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:46 pm

I know he's a dentist. I just said I like to read it not follow it like the gospel. I don't base any decisions on Internet stuff.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:35 pm

MonsterDad wrote:I don't think many people know The Dog Food Advisor is actually a dentist.
Some of the things he posts have proven to me he knows not of what he speaks. so I never look at it anymore.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Good 30/20 dog food?

Post by Ghosted3 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:49 pm

All it really boils down to is ask questions, research available stuff in your area and try it. If your dog is having good stools, nice coats, has the energy and keeping weight then sounds like you got a winner be it Pro Plan, Sportmix, or Ol Roy.

Corry

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