To young for probiotics?

[Marty0091]

Is there a age limit to probiotics?

[ezzy333]

Not that I know of but tell us why you think a dog getting a good food would need them/ I just have a problem with what is called preventative medication of any sort. You will be a lot further ahead to let the body produce it's own needs and to build their own immune system if you want a healthy dog or any other animal. If there is a temporary need of some sort then fine, but not on a preventative basis.

JMO
Ezzy

[Marty0091]

More of an overactive prepuppy question really.

My Brittish Lab is to be conceived sometime this month.

[MonsterDad]

A recent study of 25 probiotic products concluded that only 2 had any viable strains but there was no evidence they would survive once fed.

Your best bet is to use a food with beet pulp and some sort of prebiotic like chicory root. This way your dog's own bacteria will get fed and stay at high levels.

Wheat also is a very good prebiotic.

[ezzy333]

About the only time a probiotic might be helpful is after a dog has been on a fairly high level of antibiotics for a period of time. Other than that there just isn't any reason or any benefit to use them. Except for the people making and selling them, it really helps them.

Ezzy

[Doc E]

70% of a dog's immune system is in the gut = = the home of beneficial bacteria (probiotics).
IMO, having an abundance of beneficial bacteria is a PLUS.



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[ezzy333]

70% of a dog's immune system is in the gut = = the home of beneficial bacteria (probiotics).
IMO, having an abundance of beneficial bacteria is a PLUS.

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The dog can only support so many bacteria and it produces as many as needed. When you start providing for them it is just like putting a person on welfare, they no longer produce for themselves and it is just a matter of time till they will shut down and then you are in trouble and all for no reason as proven by feeding tests. My dogs have never had a probiotic and have never needed one in the past 50 years.

I have gone through the same thing with the pigeons. I have had 50 people tell me you can't win with out using such or such, seldom the same material. And to date my birds have never been supplemented or vaccinated and I haven't lost any yet. Let them build their own immunity if you want them healthy.

[frontline]

Is there a age limit to probiotics?

No. Newborns can be given beneficial bacteria. Here's a link to a popular product that many breeders use: http://www.jefferspet.com/bene-bac-plus/p/4157/

[shags]

70% of a dog's immune system is in the gut = = the home of beneficial bacteria (probiotics).
IMO, having an abundance of beneficial bacteria is a PLUS.



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Where'd you get that information? From a product commercial?
The immune system is comprised of thymus, bone marrow, spleen, and lymph nodes.
Probiotics help with immune response in cases of things like IBD, though.

[Doc E]

70% of a dog's immune system is in the gut = = the home of beneficial bacteria (probiotics).
IMO, having an abundance of beneficial bacteria is a PLUS..

Where'd you get that information? From a product commercial?
The immune system is comprised of thymus, bone marrow, spleen, and lymph nodes.
Probiotics help with immune response in cases of things like IBD, though.

Common knowledge -- Biology 101.
True about the thymus, bone marrow, spleen and lymphatics (not just the nodes).
Still, 70% of a mammals immune syetem in from beneficial gut bacteria...... Simple as that.


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[ezzy333]

70% of a dog's immune system is in the gut = = the home of beneficial bacteria (probiotics).
IMO, having an abundance of beneficial bacteria is a PLUS..

Where'd you get that information? From a product commercial?
The immune system is comprised of thymus, bone marrow, spleen, and lymph nodes.
Probiotics help with immune response in cases of things like IBD, though.

Common knowledge -- Biology 101.
True about the thymus, bone marrow, spleen and lymphatics (not just the nodes).
Still, 70% of a mammals immune syetem in from beneficial gut bacteria...... Simple as that.


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Bet the companies making the vacines hope no one finds out that a probiotic will do everything those high priced meds do . learned it in Biology 101.

Ezzy

[Doc E]

A recent study of 25 probiotic products concluded that only 2 had any viable strains but there was no evidence they would survive once fed.

Link to the study ?


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[Doc E]

The dog can only support so many bacteria and it produces as many as needed.

When you start providing for them it is just like putting a person on welfare, they no longer produce for themselves and it is just a matter of time till they will shut down and then you are in trouble and all for no reason as proven by feeding tests.

The dog produces as many as needed ?

No longer produce for themselves ?

They will "shut down" ?

Those are three of the silliest things that I've read in many months.


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[shags]

A recent study of 25 probiotic products concluded that only 2 had any viable strains but there was no evidence they would survive once fed.

Link to the study ?


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I'd like a link to the 70% thing LOL

[Doc E]

I'd like a link to the 70% thing LOL

I'll do so as soon as I have time (within a couple days or so).


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[frontline]

Bet the companies making the vacines hope no one finds out that a probiotic will do everything those high priced meds do . learned it in Biology 101.

Ezzy

Why the sarcasm and why are you bringing up vaccines? Probiotics are not vaccines, one has nothing to do with the other and they have different functions. Either you don't understand vaccines or you are stirring the pot. Which is it? This kind of behavior is NOT what moderators should be doing.

[ezzy333]

The dog can only support so many bacteria and it produces as many as needed.

When you start providing for them it is just like putting a person on welfare, they no longer produce for themselves and it is just a matter of time till they will shut down and then you are in trouble and all for no reason as proven by feeding tests.

The dog produces as many as needed ?

No longer produce for themselves ?

They will "shut down" ?

Those are three of the silliest things that I've read in many months.


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I am sure you know a great deal more than I and the vets that I have worked with over the years. But your last statement just says you don't read much. Sometimes as we get older we think we know it all and stop learning. I know that happens to me as so many here on the forum have pointed out.

It has always bothered me that we spend so much time finding the perfect feed and then decide we need to supplement it. And all we are doing is making someone rich that has sold people a bill of goods.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

Bet the companies making the vacines hope no one finds out that a probiotic will do everything those high priced meds do . learned it in Biology 101.

Ezzy

Why the sarcasm and why are you bringing up vaccines? Probiotics are not vaccines, one has nothing to do with the other and they have different functions. Either you don't understand vaccines or you are stirring the pot. Which is it? This kind of behavior is NOT what moderators should be doing.

I agree but we have some that are saying the probiotics are the biggest part of the immune system.

This kind of behavior is NOT what moderators should be doing

I agree with this also and that is not why I posted as a moderator. My duties as a mod keep me busy enough but I still like to post once in a while just like you do as a dog owner. Oops, forgot you don't have a dog. I shouldn't say that either, sorry, and thanks for the help in explaining what mods should be doing.

Ezzy

[Doc E]

your last statement just says you don't read much. Sometimes as we get older we think we know it all and stop learning.
It has always bothered me that we spend so much time finding the perfect feed and then decide we need to supplement it. And all we are doing is making someone rich that has sold people a bill of goods.

Ezzy

As a Clinical Nutritionist, I read Peer Reviewed Scientific journals all the time. I also attend considerable Continuing Medical Education classes. It's part of my job.
The 'perfect diet' seldom contains adequate beneficial bacteria in amounts that are truly beneficial.
You do understand that PRObiotics are the opposite of ANTIbiotics . . . Right ?


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[ezzy333]

Yep sure do. But it is an entirely different process that you haven't bother to mention. There can be a reason to use them if the digestive bacteria have been reduced in some manner such as a period of time using antibiotics. But the use of either as a preventative medication is not necessary or wise. And more to your statement that those bacteria are part of the immune system is totally misleading. We all know good health helps promote a good immune system but is not part of it. Good health is not based on the erroneous theory that if a little is good, a lot is better.

The 'perfect diet' seldom contains adequate beneficial bacteria in amounts that are truly beneficial.

Another statement that is misleading. I do not know of any feed that contains adequate or in many cases any beneficial bacteria in the amounts that are truly beneficial. That is not the dog foods role in nutrition. Dog food is used to sustain the life of the dog, whose digestive system contains what beneficial bacteria are needed to perform that task. In practically every case when we start adding to what the body produces or uses, all we do is cause the normal function of the body to cutback or in extreme cases stop it's natural functions. In other words, it works like all of the government functions of today such as unemployment payments, food stamps, health care, and hundreds of others where all we do is reduce the incentive of providing for yourself and just becoming dependent upon a source that may or may not always be there and it sure doesn't make anyone richer, healthier, or to start providing for themselves.

Providing supplements to any healthy animal causes more long range problems that it cures.

Ezzy

[MonsterDad]

Probiotics given to very young and newborn pups has been shown to help their immune system. That paste that you see in the store for $8. There is actually science backing that up.

After that, feeding probiotics is a total waste of time and money. The fiber in the diet is what supports the natural flora.

Even in studies where probiotics have marginally helped dogs with diarrhea, the strains used were taken from other dogs, ie native strains.

Doc E, the kind in the bottle just dont work.

[Chukar12]

What are we trying to fix or prevent?
Do a bunch of us have sickly dogs out there? It seems to me that active dogs are like active people, in overwhelming large numbers too busy to be unhealthy...
Then we start fussing...things have to be perfect, it's all about comfort, perfect balance, tinkering with nature...
and voila! Fat, neurotic, unproductive society

[V-John]

I agree with this also and that is not why I posted as a moderator. Ezzy

How do we know the difference between when you post as a "mod" and when you dont'?

[MinneapolisMatt]

I had no idea a simple question about probiotics could turn into such an entertaining thread

[MonsterDad]

I had no idea a simple question about probiotics could turn into such an entertaining thread

Wait for one on raw feeding or corn. Now that is entertainment.

[ezzy333]

I agree with this also and that is not why I posted as a moderator. Ezzy

How do we know the difference between when you post as a "mod" and when you dont'?

I'll explain it to you some time if you can't tell the difference. But most people would be bored.

Ezzy

[NJGriffNut]

" I do not know of any feed that contains adequate or in many cases any beneficial bacteria in the amounts that are truly beneficial. That is not the dog foods role in nutrition. Dog food is used to sustain the life of the dog," Ezzy

Let me first say, that you clearly have a very solid foundation base of nutrition. *not sarcastic* I have read many posts by you, some I agree, some I don't. From what I gather, you are definitely old school and in certain areas my personal belief (not worth much to anyone but me) is that comments like the above are from an era come and gone. Your responses seem to stem from work in Big Pet Food, and from some time ago. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not, however when you say that dog food is simply used to sustain the life of the dog, it really shows a generational gap in thinking. We all know that the AFFCO guidelines of "complete and balanced" foods aren't really complete and balanced, because it doesn't recognize Omega fatty acids within foods as "a necessary nutrient".

The problem lies in that dogs cannot produce omega fatty acids on there own, thus they MUST get it from either supplementing oils, or including specific proteins within the food. It is vital for many different bodily functions, and is a similar showing of AAFCO's age, and their overall feelings towards dogs and cats in that they minutely differentiate them from livestock. After all, AAFCO prioritizes livestock over pets as far as regulations and concerns go.

While you might not expect dog food to merely sustain life, I demand dog food to allow my dog the best possible chance of a long, healthy, disease free ife and one that he can thrive on. There are too many crap diets on the market that contain 4d proteins, euthanized dogs and cats, and rotten moldy grains. You know, I know it. Most of these ARE capable of SUSTAINING life, but they will not EXTEND life. You can feed a dog corn until it turns yellow and it will live, but it won't live WELL. I think the pet food industry and AAFCO have maintained similar minimal standards of "complete and balanced", "good standards of operating procedure" for far too long. Today's consumers are generally much more educated, and we simply demand more of our pet food. You either adapt or die when it comes to pet food. That is why grain free diets and raw diets are taking over market share. I read an article on Science Diet losing market share, and them having to do a face life to their line up. It isn't any surprise.

No dogs are too young for probiotics or prebiotics. Some pet foods contain them, but are not guaranteed to be viable. If it isn't in the guaranteed analysis on the bag of food, you shouldn't expect much. Even when the microorganisms are listed in the guaranteed analysis the cooking process results in nutrient damage. Your best bet is to supplement a prebiotic/probiotic combination (although you don't have to do so everyday), and there are many on the market. I like Wholistic Pet's Digest All Plus (plus digestive enzymes), as it contains the strongest concentration of microorganisms that I have found on the market. For every 1/4 teaspoon, there are a guaranteed 10billion CFU's, or colony forming units. I've used that one with good success, although it certainly isn't the only good one out there.

[frontline]

NJGriffNut, I can tell you love your dog(s) and want them to live the longest life possible. There are many here that don't share your passion and consider their dogs nothing more than livestock, it was nice to read your post!

[shags]

Yeah. Those of us who don't fall for corporate marketing ploys concerning the cure du jour don't love our dogs and only consider them to be lovestock :roll:
Can anyone provide peer reviewed papers that offer quantitative comparisons of canine immune systems between healthy animals receiving these supplements and those which do not?

[Doc E]

Can anyone provide peer reviewed papers that offer quantitative comparisons of canine immune systems between healthy animals receiving these supplements and those which do not?

I'm in the process of getting links to articles that people need to see, but my main source (a service that I pay for) is 'down' right now.
As soon as they get the site back up, I'll post up what I can find.


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[Remmag]

This topic has gone quiet. I was looking forward to some real information on this subject. DocE, did you find the info you mentioned? Just looking some answers. Thanks.

[Del Lolo]

Doc E is an "internet friend" of mine.
He tells me that he has been banned from this site.

[claybuster_aa]

If transitioning your dog from a different food upgrading the protein to a higher level, that can cause some upset stomachs and possibly some unpleasant accidents in the home (hopefully not on the carpet or rug). Mixing in some probiotic (with the new food) can help in that transition IMO.) Take apart the gel capsule and sprinkle some acidophilus onto the the food. Once the transition is complete and stools appear to be normal again, then I would back off with the probiotics. I did it once for my dog when upgrading the diet, it helped a lot and that is the only time I ever used a probiotic for my dog.