Human Protein bars

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:22 am

can i feed these to my dog ?,
we will shortly be on a trip, hunting 4 days straight 6-8hrs/day.
i am looking at energy replacement/recovery in the mid day break & something light to carry.
the human ratio is 1g of bar/1kg of body weight, he weighs 21kg

.........tasi

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:47 am

I would look more into giving them a shot of something like honey.

Jim

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:03 am

There are recipes to make your own for dogs- in the end after looking at all the ingredients- I have just gone with 1/2 of a Salted peanut roll bar
(Pearsons Salted nut roll)

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:44 am

I've been using a glycogen supplement during breaks from hunting/training. I have some published articles somewhere. One was a study from Cornell and the other was a Purina paper. Basically, they confirm that glycogen (maltodextrins) supplements replenish the glycogens (sugars) in the muscles which are the source of energy, and become depleted with exercise. Food cannot replace glycogen at a rate fast enough to keep up with continuous, multiple consecutive day training. Certain complex sugars/carbohydrates (maltodextrin) provide an expedited conversion to glycogen stores in the muscles. Feeding simple sugars will provide a temporary short term boost, but a spike in the insulin will drag energy down after a short time.

From what I've read, proteins take days to convert to glycogen.

There are a few brands of glycogen supplements around. I use Elements Nutrition "R". It works for me an my dogs and I can see the difference when hunting as the day wears on. I had forgotten to bring it on a multi-day hunt and found my dog was really dragging after a couple days and had to give the dog a day off, when I had recent past experience with no break needed with the supplement.
http://www.elements-nutrition.com/

There's an old thread from 2008 that covered this subject as well.
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=15450&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
You'll note that the last comment was a question about whether or not the dog would be attracted to drinking simple maltodextrin in water. That's something I can't answer. But I can tell you the dogs are very interested in drinking water with Elements "R".

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:57 am

Coconut oil is converted to energy quickly...but if you wanna give your dog a boost try a can of sardines mid-day, makes em really happy

As far as overnight recovery, I find it hard to believe that an expensive supplement would be any better than a banana or some oatmeal with the dogs dinner.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:49 am

Both Elements R and Aneomate Glycocharge are phenomenal products. I say this from my personal experience using both products on the prairies.

I do not profess to be an expert in the science behind the products, but I have talked extensively with the developer of Elements R. It was a long and very enlightening conversation on canine nutrition and metabolism. If used as directed, it works better than a banana and oatmeal because on the concentrations of the proper sugars saturating the muscle tissue at the proper time to maximize glycogen recovery. There is a narrow window of time to get the sugars into the bloodstream, and a rest period required after it is ingested by the dog. If the directions aren't followed, you might as well pour it on the ground.

A colleague recommended Glycocharge to me quiet a few years ago. I was amazed how it affected the dogs I was working hard and daily on the prairies. When Elements became available I switched because of convenience.

I'm sure many will say it is nothing more than "snake oil", but it works for me and my clients that take extended hunting trips.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:34 am

Luminary Setters wrote:Both Elements R and Aneomate Glycocharge are phenomenal products. I say this from my personal experience using both products on the prairies.

I do not profess to be an expert in the science behind the products, but I have talked extensively with the developer of Elements R. It was a long and very enlightening conversation on canine nutrition and metabolism. If used as directed, it works better than a banana and oatmeal because on the concentrations of the proper sugars saturating the muscle tissue at the proper time to maximize glycogen recovery. There is a narrow window of time to get the sugars into the bloodstream, and a rest period required after it is ingested by the dog. If the directions aren't followed, you might as well pour it on the ground.

A colleague recommended Glycocharge to me quiet a few years ago. I was amazed how it affected the dogs I was working hard and daily on the prairies. When Elements became available I switched because of convenience.

I'm sure many will say it is nothing more than "snake oil", but it works for me and my clients that take extended hunting trips.

Did you ever pair Annamaet Glycocharge with Annamaet Impact? I live close to that company and know the feeds really well. I do know the joint supplement that company sells is really good.

hill · Post by **hill** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:40 pm

I don't know about the human protein bars and have never thought of it. I have used glycocharge sold by LCS on multi-day hunts. I am very confident that it works and could tell a big difference in the dogs performance when I gave them the glycocharge. I believe I gave it to them after the second day of hunting and each day after that, but I could be mistaken. On each hunt I could tell a difference between the day before and the day after I gave it to them. I am very interested to hear some responsed on the human protein bars.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:39 pm

I'm always amazed at the drastic effectiveness of Elements "R".

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:44 pm

My vet. has herding dogs that she competes with and turned me on to Kronch Pemmikan bars. I used them through the hunting season and had good results. I gave about 1/2 a square (they're divided up like a chocolate bar) every 2 hours. We did a couple 8 hour hunts in cold conditions and the pup stayed in the game all day. They're about $8 depending on where you get them. I bought 2 and still have some left. I think the protein is about 26% and fat is 56%.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:22 pm

Protein is not what you want to produce energy. Fats and carbs are what is important and from what I have read the maltodextrose is one of the few things that really help if given timely.

Save the protein till later as it will aid in repairing muscle tissue.

Ezzy

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:42 pm

I have used joint supplements in the past, but I cannot say that I have observed any benefit from them. I feel like a lifestyle of sound nutrition and conditioning suffices in my program

I agree with Ezzy. In consecutive days of hunting dogs are depleting their glycogen reserves. A dog that is worked hard and put up will take 5 days to rebuild his glycogen levels. Most dogs will shut down after 4 days of hunting due to glycogen depletion if not provided with the carbs needed to replenish them. Trembling or shivering are signs of low glycogen. Kyro syrup is a convenient and economical way to provide these sugars as well.

My understanding, in canines, is the proteins primary function is to provide the amino acids necessary to efficiently metabolize the the fat, the primary fuel source in a "well conditioned" dog. Others may be have understanding or can explain this better than me.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:16 pm

http://www.acvs.org/Symposium/Proceedin ... rs/135.pdf

The link above is to a Cornell paper from study on dogs. I think our dogs fit the intermediate group rather than sprinter or endurance groups.

Somewhere I'll find the specific information I had on glycogen supplements.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:42 pm

http://www.elements-nutrition.com

I was fortunate enough to meet the developer, Todd S. several years ago in MN. He's a very knowledgable guy who runs labs in trials in addition to being a nutrition expert. Fantastic line of products that were way ahead of the curb. I still can't belive he hasn't sold out to one of the big companies.

Nate

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:44 pm

http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchR ... issue1.pdf

This was the article I recall from Purina/Arleigh Reynolds. Pages 6 and 7 have specific information on supplementing for glycogen replenishment. The maltodextrins they refer to in the article are what Elements "R" and other makers have developed to target the biologic window of opportunity with.

Honey is mentioned along with other simple sugars like Karo is made from.

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:02 pm

Love my Glycocharge, and have used Elements "R" and Kronk bars too. Ditto on the positive comments. As for human bars, I would be cautious about some of the ingredients, such as chocolate, which can in larger quantities be harmful to dogs.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:36 pm

I just looked at a couple commercial "protein" bars ingredients. The ones I looked at appear to be loaded with simple sugars. Corn syrup is a major ingredient.

From what I read into all the published stuff from recognized authorities in the canine nutrition biz points me toward maltodextrin based supplements and away from simple sugars like corn syrup and honey. I've chosen to take their advice and go with a maltodextrin supplement. I'm happy with my results as well as others. You may find something better. I just don't know other than this path and I didn't want to experiment over a few dollars.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:56 am

I use K9 Superfuel during periods of high stress. I have used it on and off enough to see a difference in my dogs performance during multiple days of hunting or trialing.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:52 pm

TYPICALLY, the "protein bars" for humans use Soy as one of the major sources of protein.
Dogs don't utilize soy protein. As others have mentioned, they are usually loaded with
simple sugars (setts the dog up for a big blood sugar spike followd by hypoglycemia).

Maltodextrin is available from Home Brew shops and it's not expensive.

.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:42 pm

thanks everyone for your input, it's been most helpful.
Doc E , good point about the Soy & sugar spike, we do have a Home Brew shop here so i will visit them re the Maltodextrin.....any idea on dosage & when ?
roanie, most helpful & appreciate your effort.
Glycocharge/Element R are just not available where i live (Tasmania, Australia), believe me i spent most of yesterday looking . doubt with the way the world is these days i would be able to import,& Google wasn't much help. will also be having a chat to my Vet for her input .
down here, Working/Performance dogs (other than Greyhounds) really don't get much consideration re diet/supplements.

...........tasi

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:23 pm

[quote="Doc E"]TYPICALLY, the "protein bars" for humans use Soy as one of the major sources of protein.
Dogs don't utilize soy protein. As others have mentioned, they are usually loaded with
simple sugars (setts the dog up for a big blood sugar spike followd by hypoglycemia).

Maltodextrin is available from Home Brew shops and it's not expensive.

Who says dogs don't utilize soy protein? There are numerous studies that say the exact opposite. Also many protein bars use much more whey protein than soy, and most use soy protein isolate which is one of the easiest to digest for man or dog.

You must have a different internet than everyone else.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:26 pm

tasi devil wrote:thanks everyone for your input, it's been most helpful.
Doc E , good point about the Soy & sugar spike, we do have a Home Brew shop here so i will visit them re the Maltodextrin.....any idea on dosage & when ?
...........tasi

For a 70 lb dog, give 1 level or slightly heaping Tablespoon ---- the night BEFORE the energy will be needed.
After a day's hunt, give it again within 20 minutes after finishing hard exercise.

.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:34 pm

Doc E

"The soy proteins in most commercial pet foods have digestibility values comparable, or superior to, protein from animal sources.1, 2 The apparent digestibility of protein from soy sources in diets of dogs has been variously reported as 71% to 90%.3, 4, 5, 6 Three isocaloric, isonitrogenous dry dog foods with primary protein sources of either beef and bone meal, soybean meal, or a combination of these two ingredients showed no difference in protein digestibility.1 Other studies have shown that protein in soybean meal is at least as digestible as beef or poultry meals used in dog foods.2, 7 Based on this data, the bioavailability of amino acids from soybean protein is comparable to that of protein from animal sources."

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:50 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Doc E

"The soy proteins in most commercial pet foods have digestibility values comparable, or superior to, protein from animal sources.1, 2 The apparent digestibility of protein from soy sources in diets of dogs has been variously reported as 71% to 90%.3, 4, 5, 6 Three isocaloric, isonitrogenous dry dog foods with primary protein sources of either beef and bone meal, soybean meal, or a combination of these two ingredients showed no difference in protein digestibility.1 Other studies have shown that protein in soybean meal is at least as digestible as beef or poultry meals used in dog foods.2, 7 Based on this data, the bioavailability of amino acids from soybean protein is comparable to that of protein from animal sources."

How about the "anti-nutrients" in soy ?
"The soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients." First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These inhibitors are large, tightly folded proteins that are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking. They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. Soybeans also contain haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and haemagglutinin are growth inhibitors."
The majority of experts on pet nutrition agree soy isn't good nutrition for cats or dogs. It is considered a low-quality, incomplete protein well known to create food allergies in pets.
American Journal of Veterinary Research, 2004 May;65(5):592-6.

Feel free to continue feeding that Ol'Roy to your dogs.
For mine, I'll steer clear of soy

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:15 pm

Doc E wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Doc E

"The soy proteins in most commercial pet foods have digestibility values comparable, or superior to, protein from animal sources.1, 2 The apparent digestibility of protein from soy sources in diets of dogs has been variously reported as 71% to 90%.3, 4, 5, 6 Three isocaloric, isonitrogenous dry dog foods with primary protein sources of either beef and bone meal, soybean meal, or a combination of these two ingredients showed no difference in protein digestibility.1 Other studies have shown that protein in soybean meal is at least as digestible as beef or poultry meals used in dog foods.2, 7 Based on this data, the bioavailability of amino acids from soybean protein is comparable to that of protein from animal sources."

How about the "anti-nutrients" in soy ?
"The soybean contains large quantities of natural toxins or "antinutrients." First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These inhibitors are large, tightly folded proteins that are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking. They can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. Soybeans also contain haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and haemagglutinin are growth inhibitors."
The majority of experts on pet nutrition agree soy isn't good nutrition for cats or dogs. It is considered a low-quality, incomplete protein well known to create food allergies in pets.
American Journal of Veterinary Research, 2004 May;65(5):592-6.

Feel free to continue feeding that Ol'Roy to your dogs.
For mine, I'll steer clear of soy

Well maybe Purina will hire you to teach all those PHD's a lesson and maybe let you reformulate Purina One, which is one the best selling foods in the country. I have yet to meet a dog that didn't do well on that food and look great. Soy shouldn't be used as a sole source of protein, but you made a totally false statement and just thought you needed some facts. Soy has been tested in sled dogs paired with corn gluten in a MEATLESS diet and the study showed no deficiences at all, not even red blood cell count.

I don't use a food with soy, but when you make false statements like you made, some people that do might worry, and they shouldn't.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:48 pm

Purina One has soy in it's ingredients ?

.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:43 pm

Doc ,Tex weighs in at 21kilos or 46pounds (70 pounds/31kilos) so i reckon 2x level teaspoons would be okay & safe.
interesting to give it the night before,seems to correlate with what i've read so far re distribution in the body.

..........tasi

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:49 pm

tasi devil wrote:Doc ,Tex weighs in at 21kilos or 46pounds (70 pounds/31kilos) so i reckon 2x level teaspoons would be okay & safe.
interesting to give it the night before,seems to correlate with what i've read so far re distribution in the body.

..........tasi

Sounds about right.
Giving it the night before (and right away after the hunt) restores the glycogen stored in the muscle, which is utilized the next day.

.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Fri May 24, 2013 6:03 am

just want to say thanks everyone,
went with the Maltodextrin @ the suggested dosages also gave him some mutton flaps with a high quality working dog dry food as his evening meal.
worked a treat, he hit the ground running hard on the 4th day & did a 6hr stint. he wasn't fresh put ran hard. pulled up with little soreness on the days after.
very impressed with his recovery as much as the retained energy levels while hunting

............tasi

marysburg · Post by **marysburg** » Fri May 24, 2013 3:24 pm

I was only able to find maltodextrin in 50 lb. bags available by special order through a brewing supply store, so I looked into human supplements made for bodybuilders and extreme athletes. There is a post workout maltodextrin formula available for a reasonable price in smaller amounts than 50 lb. That will likely fill the bill for me.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:39 am

I buy the gallon jugs from Elements Nutrition. They will last me about a season per gallon, maybe a little less than the season. I have a friend with a homebrew shop. I'll ask him about bulk maltodexrin.

david0311 · Post by **david0311** » Wed May 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Northern Brewer----Maltodextrin 8oz. bags $1.75--dc

Great discussion and information in this post--

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