Any of you feed raw?

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:51 am

Looking at the organizations Mercola supports, listed at the bottom of his home page, it's apparent that he has his own bias and agenda. And if the diet he promotes is so great, why does he market a bunch of supplements?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:08 am

shags wrote:Looking at the organizations Mercola supports, listed at the bottom of his home page, it's apparent that he has his own bias and agenda. And if the diet he promotes is so great, why does he market a bunch of supplements?

The point is that you can find support for any position you wish to take. Dr. Mercola, by the way, is not the source of the bulk of companion animal information on his site. That would be illegal. I'm not necessarily supportive of the entire philosophy presented there, but the resources overall are good and I have enough education and experience to sift through the dogma, so to speak, and not pooh-pooh the entire site based on a view of the homepage.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:30 am

Precisely. One must consider the source.

Kind of like following politics on MSNBC vs Fox News.

Listen to both sides, consider the source, then make up one's own mind based on education and experience or lack thereof

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:44 am

displaced_texan,

I will admit is isn't a simple process at least not for me. But I had some difficulty feeding my dog when he was a pup using store bought puppy food. That's what led me to do some research and talk to some dog owners that feed the raw diet. I certainly don't think it's for everyone. But its not rocket science either. I also may have been a little out of line in my cost comparison comment, since I have never really done any kind of real documentation to prove my statement. I guess what I really meant was it is easy on my wallet because I have access to good deals on store bought meat as well as some wild game meat. I do admit though my dog is close to 3 years old now and doing really well on what I've been feeding him. I wonder how many people in these conversations who feed raw have discussed their feeding decision with their vets and what response they got?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:56 am

walkos5 wrote: I wonder how many people in these conversations who feed raw have discussed their feeding decision with their vets and what response they got?

I did some years ago !
He recommended exclusively the products they had in store?.

Maybe he was bias ?....
......
Curiously, I have also had great delight over the years shopping at ASDA/WALMART , fantastic savings at the 'sell by date' counter (fit for human consumption) but over the 'best by date'...works out cheaper than Dog food!..What's that all about ?..

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:38 pm

brdhntr wrote:As a side note, one of the reasons I like to feed raw is because there is no tax. I find it disturbing that to feed my dog dry food the government first must collect 7.125%.

How about 15% in Ontario - of course everyone does have complete "free" health care.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:53 pm

walkos5 wrote:displaced_texan,

I will admit is isn't a simple process at least not for me. But I had some difficulty feeding my dog when he was a pup using store bought puppy food. That's what led me to do some research and talk to some dog owners that feed the raw diet. I certainly don't think it's for everyone. But its not rocket science either. I also may have been a little out of line in my cost comparison comment, since I have never really done any kind of real documentation to prove my statement. I guess what I really meant was it is easy on my wallet because I have access to good deals on store bought meat as well as some wild game meat. I do admit though my dog is close to 3 years old now and doing really well on what I've been feeding him. I wonder how many people in these conversations who feed raw have discussed their feeding decision with their vets and what response they got?

I agree with you. My point was that some here are quick to dismiss experiences like yours because they don't support what they already believe.

MikeAZ · Post by **MikeAZ** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:02 pm

My dogs get a combo of raw chicken (frozen) and cooked (rice, veggies, meat).

I like leaving the raw frozen so they work on it for a bit and it keeps their teeth clean; I saw zoo keepers doing something similar with treats for zoo animals and figured it would work for my dogs. Raw also seems to completely digest, so if the poop doesn't get picked up it turns white and crumbles away.

I found that just feeding raw wasn't working for my lab so I added the rice and veggies. This also stops them from eating the grass.

The cost is far less than buying the good bagged foods and I think what they are getting is far better. I did have a vet try to sell me on some commercial food, but I sometimes thinks vets get some payback from dog food companies the way doctors do from big pharma.

I have tried just about everything over the years and this combo seems to be the best, at least for me.

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:28 pm

I posted this pic on the UK gundog training forum under a subject heading of “Spot the Kibble Fed Dog”. Well, I thought that was funny (the Goldie is a regular guest here, he is kibble fed, the spaniels are raw fed), but someone pointed out it was unwittingly starting yet another Raw versus Kibble debate. I just thought it was a good picture

To be honest, I can, and have, argued the Raw v Kibble debate on many occasions from both sides - it’s a regular hot topic on numerous UK forums (working dog and pet/companion). What suits the dog AND the owner is more important (in my opinion) than lectures and statistics, but I do have an issue with some of the kibbles that are laced with additives (yes, I do believe this can lead to behaviour issues).

I’m not siding with Polmaise because he’s a “Brit”, lol, but that picture of his dogs looks good and it would be difficult to argue that he’s got it wrong. Of course, others could post pictures that show their dogs in good order that are fed on the cheapest kibble available, so it's a discussion that will continue for years to come :roll:

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:25 pm

Old picture taken with a camera as cheap as the dog food we used to feed.

Wayne's puppy O's and Old Roy she made it almost to 17 and was a sight to see.....I almost feel guilty what we fed our dogs back then but
they always looked good and had plenty of energy. Never an allergy or anything I can recall, but we did scoop alot O' Poo

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:49 pm

spaceman wrote:I posted this pic on the UK gundog training forum under a subject heading of “Spot the Kibble Fed Dog”. Well, I thought that was funny (the Goldie is a regular guest here, he is kibble fed, the spaniels are raw fed), but someone pointed out it was unwittingly starting yet another Raw versus Kibble debate. I just thought it was a good picture

To be honest, I can, and have, argued the Raw v Kibble debate on many occasions from both sides - it’s a regular hot topic on numerous UK forums (working dog and pet/companion). What suits the dog AND the owner is more important (in my opinion) than lectures and statistics, but I do have an issue with some of the kibbles that are laced with additives (yes, I do believe this can lead to behaviour issues).

I’m not siding with Polmaise because he’s a “Brit”, lol, but that picture of his dogs looks good and it would be difficult to argue that he’s got it wrong. Of course, others could post pictures that show their dogs in good order that are fed on the cheapest kibble available, so it's a discussion that will continue for years to come :roll:

Absolutely. That is funny!!

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:30 am

Just curious as to how many of u raw feeders feed wild game meat to your dogs? And if so, what?

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:12 pm

MonsterDad wrote:There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

The ethical consideration we have is to look after the animals in our care. If it causes you personal angst that your dogs are not eating a "natural" diet, then fill your boots, but you also need to remember that your own personal ethical dilemna does not automatically relegate everyone else to a bad place. As long as the dogs are being cared for then the underlying, fundamental ethic is being met. Your own personal interpretations reflect only upon you and your character and not that of anyone else.
So, NO, even if it is possible from an economic and time standpoint, it is not a responsibility of everyone to feed your interpretation of a "more natural diet".

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:17 pm

walkos5 wrote:OK lets look at this discussion from another angle. From what I have read commercial dog food was never sold on store shelves until the early 1950s so what did everyone feed their dogs before then? I guess all the hunting dogs before 1950s were unhealthy. Can anyone recall grandpas dog or dogs as being unhealthy?

On average the dogs of today live healthier and longer lives because of the development of consistent, economical, convenient dog foods.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:38 pm

MonsterDad wrote:There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?

It's even more natural to let them go hunt down and kill their own dinner. Want to go there? :roll:

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:11 pm

shags wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?
It's even more natural to let them go hunt down and kill their own dinner. Want to go there? :roll:

You win.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:31 pm

slistoe wrote:
shags wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:There is an ethical side to this argument of fresh/raw vs. dry/commercial that doesn't get enough attention.

Do we as caretakers have the responsibility of feeding a more natural diet, assuming it is possible from a time and economic standpoint?
It's even more natural to let them go hunt down and kill their own dinner. Want to go there? :roll:
You win.

No, not a valid point.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:00 pm

Imagine Millers On Line running until 11 or 12 in the national on dirty kibble

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:06 pm

Lassie and Old Yeller never ate any dry kibble...

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:07 am

birddog1968 wrote:Imagine Millers On Line running until 11 or 12 in the national on dirty kibble

I fed his sister a nice big chunk of raw elk roast today, but she's just my wild bird dog.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 pm

walkos5 wrote:Lassie and Old Yeller never ate any dry kibble...

Yea but they were both bootlickers

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:31 pm

And Ole Yeller never had his rabies shots either.

Charlie

Del Lolo · Post by **Del Lolo** » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:44 pm

One of my best friends has a PhD in canine nutrition and even he says he doesn't know enough to feed raw.

.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:23 pm

Del Lolo wrote:One of my best friends has a PhD in canine nutrition and even he says he doesn't know enough to feed raw.

.

Having the knowledge to do it right would be my concern also.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:21 pm

birddogger wrote:
Del Lolo wrote:One of my best friends has a PhD in canine nutrition and even he says he doesn't know enough to feed raw.

.
Having the knowledge to do it right would be my concern also.

Charlie

The major problem is the lack of an analysis of what is in each ingredient you are feeding the equipment to mix the proper amount so the feed is consistent, and a lab to check if the mix is what you are wanting. If there was a way to do all of that without breaking the bank plus the time to do it, it would be a great way to feed. It has always mystified me why the people who seem to be overly concerned about the ingredient list and the formula of a commercial feed are the same ones that want to feed raw where they can not even begin to control the formula even close to a dry feed. And all of the feed tests I have ever seen show the lack of a consistent formula undoes any advantage of feeding a raw formula no matter how good it is. To take advantage of the raw formula you need to feed the same feed with the same analysis everyday.

But I think most people agree if there was a way to do it right it would be great for the dog. It is just hard for anyone to do that plus find the time and money to do it right. And we do know that feeding a dry kibble is an excellent way to feed so the advantage of feeding raw is probably non-existent.

Ezzy

brdhntr · Post by **brdhntr** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:42 pm

If you think a dog food label assures you of complete nutrition you are naive. World class athletes don't put that level of analysis into their diets. As a former high level athlete and now coach I can assure you no one is taking nutrition that far. My biggest concern as an athlete wasn't what I was taking in as much what I kept out of my body. I'm more sure of what I feed my dogs than any thing that comes in a bag. Exacting amounts of ingredients is not even relevant because there is no magic one sizes fits all diet. Another thing I know is no athlete with specific nutritional goals can meet their needs in any single meal especially if they only eat one thing for every meal.

yamadirt426 · Post by **yamadirt426** » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:02 pm

Ive been feeding raw for years. Ive never had an issue with it. It comes from a reputable guy. Chicken bone veg mix all ground up. They get raw turkey necks all the time. Eat raw deer legs for days in the back yard. They dont have to drink as much water and have smaller poos. Most of the time i dont even thaw it out. Just give them a lbs frozen and let them have at it. No farts, clean teeth, nice coats, tons of energy. Good stuff.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:56 am

brdhntr wrote:If you think a dog food label assures you of complete nutrition you are naive. World class athletes don't put that level of analysis into their diets. As a former high level athlete and now coach I can assure you no one is taking nutrition that far. My biggest concern as an athlete wasn't what I was taking in as much what I kept out of my body. I'm more sure of what I feed my dogs than any thing that comes in a bag. Exacting amounts of ingredients is not even relevant because there is no magic one sizes fits all diet. Another thing I know is no athlete with specific nutritional goals can meet their needs in any single meal especially if they only eat one thing for every meal.

I'm with you Brdhntr, no one will ever convince me that processed dog food that sits on the shelf in stores for weeks or longer is better then what mother nature can provide through feeding a raw diet. I think if dogs on dry kibble could speak they'd be saying "where's the beef"!!!

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:09 am

walkos5 wrote:
brdhntr wrote:If you think a dog food label assures you of complete nutrition you are naive. World class athletes don't put that level of analysis into their diets. As a former high level athlete and now coach I can assure you no one is taking nutrition that far. My biggest concern as an athlete wasn't what I was taking in as much what I kept out of my body. I'm more sure of what I feed my dogs than any thing that comes in a bag. Exacting amounts of ingredients is not even relevant because there is no magic one sizes fits all diet. Another thing I know is no athlete with specific nutritional goals can meet their needs in any single meal especially if they only eat one thing for every meal.
I'm with you Brdhntr, no one will ever convince me that processed dog food that sits on the shelf in stores for weeks or longer is better then what mother nature can provide through feeding a raw diet. I think if dogs on dry kibble could speak they'd be saying "where's the beef"!!!

Or "where's the green tripe!!!"

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:34 am

Del Lolo wrote:One of my best friends has a PhD in canine nutrition and even he says he doesn't know enough to feed raw.

.

Who offers a Ph.D. in canine nutrition?

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:And all of the feed tests I have ever seen show the lack of a consistent formula undoes any advantage of feeding a raw formula no matter how good it is.

Ezzy

Do any of us ever get to see any links to all the studies you refer to or do we just have to take your word for everything?

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:06 pm

Picked up 30lbs of pork shoulder today for $8.

Chopped, deboned and bagged and in the freezer now.

Also got 5lbs of chicken livers for free that someone ordered and paid for and decided not to pick up.

Maybe I will get lucky with some rabbits again.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:07 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Picked up 30lbs of pork shoulder today for $8.

Chopped, deboned and bagged and in the freezer.

Also got 5lbs of chicken livers for free.

I don't like you any more.

And if you feed those chicken livers to the dogs instead of frying them we're really going to have issues!

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:11 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Picked up 30lbs of pork shoulder today for $8.

Chopped, deboned and bagged and in the freezer.

Also got 5lbs of chicken livers for free.
I don't like you any more.

And if you feed those chicken livers to the dogs instead of frying them we're really going to have issues!

I hate chicken liver....although I do have a good pasta recipe that calls for them. Tomorrow I will make some fresh pasta with Caputo '00' flour.

http://www.lidiasitaly.com/recipes/detail/884

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:36 pm

I know of a study you can go witness in person, its called the Ames Plantation in Febuary

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:00 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I know of a study you can go witness in person, its called the Ames Plantation in Febuary

I'm just not inclined to be terribly influenced by someone I don't know on the Internet who's only qualification I've ever seen is pointing out his own vast reserve of experience. If there are all these volumes of proof and studies, show me.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:21 pm

I tend to agree which is why i pointed out something tangible and visable, but those poor dogs probably don't know how bad off they are

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:39 pm

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm constantly hearing about studies and research from Ezzy, but we never get any proof beyond his words... For all I know it's as valid information as all the Facebook posts in the past few days about the 28th ammendment to the Constitution...

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:28 am

There are no studies that I am aware of regarding the value of raw feeding or any comparative studies of raw vs dry because there is no money to be made by Purina, Eukanuba or Royal Canin.

The vast majority of nutritional studies are really advertising by the large companies cloaked as science. They only do these studies when they know the data will support a marketing angle.

Ezzy has a valid point about upside in all this, and in that I tend to agree. There are only 24 hours in a day and some people rightly allocate time to family, recreation, church, charity, etc.

When I can I fit raw feeding in, I do, and I am a big proponent of doing it partially, but it doesn't take priority over life.

Your dogs health in the end has less do to with diet (in the US, Canada & Europe) and much more about genetics. However, many non-genetic issue like healthy teeth and gums, which can have a huge impact on longevity and health, is much easier to do when the dogs eat raw or as little carbohydrate as possible. That even Ezzy will agree with. Ear infections, which are a pain and very costly don't effect longevity, are non-existent in raw fed dogs.

As for balance, in an adult dog perfect nutritional balance is something man made up, it doesn't exist naturally so its not an issue. In a very young pup it is important and in nature it is manifested in nursing. Pups do in fact eat a near perfect balance of nutrients each day, so he is right there but an adult dog need not be treated that way.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:46 am

Not only is there no money to be made in such a study but money to be lost in profits to the dog food industry if there was a larger movement on feeding raw. Not to mention a loss in profit from the sale of vet meds if we were to keep our pets super healthy. I have to agree too that time is an important factor to consider when choosing to feed raw and I seriously doubt that feeding some kibble now and then or mixing some in when your a little short on fresh meat will do skippy any harm. Its feeding a dog from a bag day after day that I have a problem with regardless of what the labels may say.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:23 am

MonsterDad wrote: Ear infections, which are a pain and very costly don't effect longevity, are non-existent in raw fed dogs.

You want data, yet you make ludicrous claims like this with absolutely no reference to back it up. It is the raw food proponents that are making claims of longevity, increased health etc. that are completely irresponsible in this matter - they are making stuff up. If it wasn't for companies like Purina and Eukanuba there would be very little known about the role of nutrition in canine health - and we would be still operating on the voodoo science the raw diet folks are purporting.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:26 am

walkos5 wrote:Its feeding a dog from a bag day after day that I have a problem with regardless of what the labels may say.

I really have no problem with feeding your dog in any manner you see fit, even the above. But you have to be truthful and admit that the "problem" is a personal one of your mind and actually has nothing to do with the dog. If you cannot admit that, I still have no problem with what you are doing with feeding your dog, but I have a huge problem with how you are presenting in an intentionally deceitful manner.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:25 am

slistoe wrote:
walkos5 wrote:Its feeding a dog from a bag day after day that I have a problem with regardless of what the labels may say.
I really have no problem with feeding your dog in any manner you see fit, even the above. But you have to be truthful and admit that the "problem" is a personal one of your mind and actually has nothing to do with the dog. If you cannot admit that, I still have no problem with what you are doing with feeding your dog, but I have a huge problem with how you are presenting in an intentionally deceitful manner.

Wow, why the anger? Ask anyone with a dog with persistent skin problems including ear infections if feeding raw or eliminating carbohydrates helped or eliminated the problem. You will be quite surprised.

Any cost savings from feeding poor quality dry foods is quickly spent just on cleaning teeth, unless you like dogs with sewer breath and gum infections. I like pearly whites and don't spend money on needless vet visits. One complete cleaning in my area is well over $500 and an extraction is an easy $1,000. That is a lot of green tripe my angry friend.

walkos5 · Post by **walkos5** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:35 am

Seems like we hit a raw nerve slistoe. Who do you work for Purina or Eukanuba? My writing skills are nothing to write home about but I assure you I never meant to be deceitful so I'll apologize to anyone who agrees with you, but I have every right to defend myself from you and your friends above. Your recent statement makes me believe that only those within dog food industry and vets have the ability to understand what is nutritionally best for our k9 friends. Well excuse me for not putting all of my faith in either. There are books, online information and documentaries written and produced by scientists and wildlife biologist's that can teach those willing to learn what our k9 friends have been eating since the beginning of time, and they have nothing to do with the dog food industry. Our dogs behavior may have changed through domestication but their digestive systems and nutritional needs have not. Sorry for practicing voodoo!!!

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:59 pm

Y'all getting personal is just ranting! ..
Feed what you want !... :roll:
On the point of teeth?..however I must favour the 'au naturale' ....
Green Tripe comes in many flavours

...and btw..As I often do...one big lump , gets them chewing on them molars' and them incy wincy bits that a toothbrush don't get, is ..a'''rgh , like a natural toothbrush of ...wow!
Also available defrosted

S1040001.JPG

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:33 pm

MonsterDad wrote:
slistoe wrote:
walkos5 wrote:Its feeding a dog from a bag day after day that I have a problem with regardless of what the labels may say.
I really have no problem with feeding your dog in any manner you see fit, even the above. But you have to be truthful and admit that the "problem" is a personal one of your mind and actually has nothing to do with the dog. If you cannot admit that, I still have no problem with what you are doing with feeding your dog, but I have a huge problem with how you are presenting in an intentionally deceitful manner.
Wow, why the anger? Ask anyone with a dog with persistent skin problems including ear infections if feeding raw or eliminating carbohydrates helped or eliminated the problem. You will be quite surprised.

Any cost savings from feeding poor quality dry foods is quickly spent just on cleaning teeth, unless you like dogs with sewer breath and gum infections. I like pearly whites and don't spend money on needless vet visits. One complete cleaning in my area is well over $500 and an extraction is an easy $1,000. That is a lot of green tripe my angry friend.

Angry?

No, just annoyed with the impertinence of the raw food evangelists.
Try putting up something factual. THe only dog of mine that ever needed a tooth cleaning was a 17 year old we had switched over to canned food thinking it would be better for her - the vet attributed the build up to the wet food.
I can assure you that your dogs will not live longer, have less health issues nor perform any better than mine simply because you are feeding raw. Why? Because there is absolutely no evidence in a study by anyone to show that there is even a remote possibility of such. If you want to try it, fine, I really don't care. But don't try to pass it off as some sort of truth.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:40 pm

walkos5 wrote:Seems like we hit a raw nerve slistoe. Who do you work for Purina or Eukanuba? My writing skills are nothing to write home about but I assure you I never meant to be deceitful so I'll apologize to anyone who agrees with you, but I have every right to defend myself from you and your friends above. Your recent statement makes me believe that only those within dog food industry and vets have the ability to understand what is nutritionally best for our k9 friends. Well excuse me for not putting all of my faith in either. There are books, online information and documentaries written and produced by scientists and wildlife biologist's that can teach those willing to learn what our k9 friends have been eating since the beginning of time, and they have nothing to do with the dog food industry. Our dogs behavior may have changed through domestication but their digestive systems and nutritional needs have not. Sorry for practicing voodoo!!!

I work for no dog food industry in any way - ever before, now or after. Because I call a spade a spade you think I have something financial to gain? Fits with your thought process I guess. When you state that there is something wrong nutritionally with the dry dog foods that are backed by dozens of real scientific studies then you are being intentionally deceitful.
As to learning how our wild canids live, what is the life expectancy of a wolf or a coyote in the wild?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:57 pm

I would like to know why any of you think raw is better? I, like Slistoe, have no desire to change what you want to feed, but some of the statements that are being made are not based on any facts I have ever seen but generally indicate what you like is better than what anyone else likes. We all agree raw is fine for a dog but there are problems with it just like there is with anything else. Statements like healthier, live longer, natural, what they ate in the past, are all qualities that you had to discover on your own and I think the rest of us neophytes need to know about. When the evidence of how a dog lives and works is all around us and probably 95 to 98% of those animals are eating kibble I am always interested in what make anyone think they are feeding something better than the rest of the world is doing it.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Is there any statistics available on dogs that eat '"bleep"' on those that don't ?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:23 pm

polmaise wrote:Is there any statistics available on dogs that eat '"bleep"' on those that don't ?

Not that I have ever seen. They have done some trying to find out why they eat their own and haven't come up with an answer as far as I know. They did say it wasn't nutritional though.

Ezzy