Any of you feed raw?

[Bounty_Hunter]

Amazing how fast the newbies become experts isn't it? I love it!

Raw is much better than dog kibble by far,raw provides more nutrients and vitamins than dry dog kibble. Kibble is based mostly off corn meal which is just a filler with empty carbs. Corn is not digestable and will only lead your dog to being hungrier and gain more weight.

Gosh, and only less than a month ago you had "no idea" what to feed your new dog.

Gotta love it :roll:

Why should I take any advice from you two? Nothing you two have been saying makes any sense. I think the raw feed people make better points about what is better for my dog.

[slistoe]

I can make all kinds of good points if I wanted to just make "bleep" up. Real facts are hard to come by from those folks.
Cooking food makes it more digestible - for all food types. The studies have been done - scientific with mice and real life with people.

[ezzy333]

I can make all kinds of good points if I wanted to just make "bleep" up. Real facts are hard to come by from those folks.
Cooking food makes it more digestible - for all food types. The studies have been done - scientific with mice and real life with people.

I have been waiting for someone to speak up and correct this bit about digestibility. We do not cook food just to provide something for your wife or mother to do. But it is just another thing that won't be settled here since it isn't as simple as many think. There is a difference between digestibility and palatability. There are so many factors involved in this whole argument that no one is taking into consideration. I guess that is the reason it takes several years of schooling and experience to understand it all.

Ezzy

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Have at it young man maybe the raw feeders will put the feed companies out of business!! BUT I DOUBT IT.
Train & run your dog in some competition trials & show all these kibble dogs up! Shouldn't be difficult !

[Garrison]

Article about this subject, I will stick with kibble.


http://news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_det ... o?id=10666

[SubMariner]

We do not cook food just to provide something for your wife or mother to do.
Ezzy

Dude... tell me you just didn't go there! Better back up that MCP truck before something happens...

[ACooper]

We do not cook food just to provide something for your wife or mother to do.
Ezzy

Dude... tell me you just didn't go there! Better back up MCP truck before something happens...

haha, I was waiting for this.

[displaced_texan]

So by using sled dogs as proof that raw is better, and they feed raw because they care so much about their dogs? Are you saying we don't care as much?

As far as your endless argument about corn, I'd be willing to bet that a HUGE percentage of high level trial dogs (not guys like me that run 6 trials a year with a local club to exte their season, but all age guys) feed Pro Plan, which if I remember right includes corn. They feed it because it works.

I can make all kinds of good points if I wanted to just make "bleep" up. Real facts are hard to come by from those folks.
Cooking food makes it more digestible - for all food types. The studies have been done - scientific with mice and real life with people.

I have been waiting for someone to speak up and correct this bit about digestibility. We do not cook food just to provide something for your wife or mother to do. But it is just another thing that won't be settled here since it isn't as simple as many think. There is a difference between digestibility and palatability. There are so many factors involved in this whole argument that no one is taking into consideration. I guess that is the reason it takes several years of schooling and experience to understand it all.

Ezzy

I was actually about to make this exact point!

[birddogger]

Why should I take any advice from you two? Nothing you two have been saying makes any sense. I think the raw feed people make better points about what is better for my dog.

Well there you go then...It's settled. This proves that raw is better!

Charlie

[slistoe]

So by using sled dogs as proof that raw is better, and they feed raw because they care so much about their dogs?

A few more "real facts". I had some spare time so I started browsing websites from competitors in the endurance sled dog races. The ones that bother to mention what they feed are feeding some type of high protein, high fat kibble.
So much for the "they feed raw because it's better" argument.

[ezzy333]

And if you would like to check on it they also carry a small stove to cook the raw meat they carry with them before feeding it during the Iditarod.

Ezzy

[displaced_texan]

So by using sled dogs as proof that raw is better, and they feed raw because they care so much about their dogs?

A few more "real facts". I had some spare time so I started browsing websites from competitors in the endurance sled dog races. The ones that bother to mention what they feed are feeding some type of high protein, high fat kibble.
So much for the "they feed raw because it's better" argument.

And if you would like to check on it they also carry a small stove to cook the raw meat they carry with them before feeding it during the Iditarod.

Ezzy

You two and your facts. What about opinions and feelings, don't they count as proof?

[displaced_texan]

Also, Ezzy would probably know this... What about nutrient density? I know that kibble is pretty processed, I'm assuming it's much more nutrient dense than raw food, wouldn't that plus the added digestibility of cooked food make it easier for the dogs to get the most benefit from the available nutrients?

[MonsterDad]

So by using sled dogs as proof that raw is better, and they feed raw because they care so much about their dogs?

A few more "real facts". I had some spare time so I started browsing websites from competitors in the endurance sled dog races. The ones that bother to mention what they feed are feeding some type of high protein, high fat kibble.
So much for the "they feed raw because it's better" argument.

Yes we know that. The more successful and better funded teams use Dr. Tim's, Red Paw and Eagle as well as some others.

No one denied that. It would be impossible or impractical to put 10,000 calories per day in a dog without kibble.

[ezzy333]

Also, Ezzy would probably know this... What about nutrient density? I know that kibble is pretty processed, I'm assuming it's much more nutrient dense than raw food, wouldn't that plus the added digestibility of cooked food make it easier for the dogs to get the most benefit from the available nutrients?

I am not sure how the density of a prepared raw diet would compare. The meat portion would be quite dense but the vegetable part could be all over the board.

I don't know if the results were ever published on not but I do know on the test we run the inconsistance of home made raw diets undid the advantace plus some when compared to a good dry food.

Someone made the statement in one of these threads that no feed companies had ever tested kibble against raw, but I will guarantee you they have and would be doing it if there was a way to do it and make money with it.

And I also want to say again that myself or no one else that I have witnessed has said raw wasn't good. It is just not economically feasible if it is done right. The labor and overhead would kill you. Solve those problems and I would try it again.

Ezzy

[displaced_texan]

Also, Ezzy would probably know this... What about nutrient density? I know that kibble is pretty processed, I'm assuming it's much more nutrient dense than raw food, wouldn't that plus the added digestibility of cooked food make it easier for the dogs to get the most benefit from the available nutrients?

I am not sure how the density of a prepared raw diet would compare. The meat portion would be quite dense but the vegetable part could be all over the board.

I don't know if the results were ever published on not but I do know on the test we run the inconsistance of home made raw diets undid the advantace plus some when compared to a good dry food.

Someone made the statement in one of these threads that no feed companies had ever tested kibble against raw, but I will guarantee you they have and would be doing it if there was a way to do it and make money with it.

And I also want to say again that myself or no one else that I have witnessed has said raw wasn't good. It is just not economically feasible if it is done right. The labor and overhead would kill you. Solve those problems and I would try it again.

Ezzy

Part of what made me wonder that was the Bil Jac frozen food.

I've always assumed it was closer to a raw diet, and I know it's insanely low in protein and fat.

[slistoe]

So by using sled dogs as proof that raw is better, and they feed raw because they care so much about their dogs?

A few more "real facts". I had some spare time so I started browsing websites from competitors in the endurance sled dog races. The ones that bother to mention what they feed are feeding some type of high protein, high fat kibble.
So much for the "they feed raw because it's better" argument.

Yes we know that. The more successful and better funded teams use Dr. Tim's, Red Paw and Eagle as well as some others.

No one denied that. It would be impossible or impractical to put 10,000 calories per day in a dog without kibble.

Denied it? It was never asserted. The assertion made was that dog sledders fed raw because it was better for their dogs in the extreme endurance they demanded. Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of raw food diet, it is completely false.

[kibafang90]

I don't know about anybody's dogs but mine.

All i know, is when i change my dogs diet, she changes. For better or worse. Seizures, or an attentive happy dog.

MY dog craves raw meat. She does great on it. She feels her best.

That's all i can say.

[Point2Point]

I don't know about anybody's dogs but mine.

All i know, is when i change my dogs diet, she changes. For better or worse. Seizures, or an attentive happy dog.

MY dog craves raw meat. She does great on it. She feels her best.

That's all i can say.

THIS is how one argues for raw. Nice job fang. I feed kibble and my dogs do great on it. Fang feeds raw and his dog does great on it. I bet we are both just happy that OUR dogs are doing well.

[kibafang90]

I don't know about anybody's dogs but mine.

All i know, is when i change my dogs diet, she changes. For better or worse. Seizures, or an attentive happy dog.

MY dog craves raw meat. She does great on it. She feels her best.

That's all i can say.

THIS is how one argues for raw. Nice job fang. I feed kibble and my dogs do great on it. Fang feeds raw and his dog does great on it. I bet we are both just happy that OUR dogs are doing well.

I'm FEMALE

[kibafang90]

A few more "real facts". I had some spare time so I started browsing websites from competitors in the endurance sled dog races. The ones that bother to mention what they feed are feeding some type of high protein, high fat kibble.
So much for the "they feed raw because it's better" argument.[/quote]

Yes we know that. The more successful and better funded teams use Dr. Tim's, Red Paw and Eagle as well as some others.

No one denied that. It would be impossible or impractical to put 10,000 calories per day in a dog without kibble.[/quote]
Denied it? It was never asserted. The assertion made was that dog sledders fed raw because it was better for their dogs in the extreme endurance they demanded. Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of raw food diet, it is completely false.[/quote]


Those same kibble fed dogs bled from the anus during the race. :/

[walkos5]

Denied it? It was never asserted. The assertion made was that dog sledders fed raw because it was better for their dogs in the extreme endurance they demanded. Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of raw food diet, it is completely false.

"Here we go again," spinning my statements to benefit your own cause. What I said word for word was, kibble alone cannot supply the nutritional needs to compete at such a level. Now had I said only raw can supply the nutritional needs, you would be right, but I didn't. So once again you are wrong. As for the information you failed to find on what most sled dogs eat, I can help. Most feed a mixture of raw meat and dry dog food. Meats like beef, caribou, chicken, and other sources of fats and protein like salmon, turkey skins, seal fat and fish oil. The best information I found on what might produce the best diet for endurance was a 2009 article that was published in Mushing Magazine titled, Rendering sense into feeding. It was posted by Arleigh Reynolds PHD DVM. It is a detailed study done with the help of Oklahoma University, and shows what foods would produce the best diet for a sled dog in such a competition. Read it. I personally would prefer to take the word of someone who has spent most of their professional career studying sled dog nutrition then the kibble club.

[Mountaineer]

As Jerry Clower once said in a story about a hunter, a tree and a bobcat..."whooooo-ooohhh, just shoot up here amongst us, 'cause one of us got to have some relief".

[displaced_texan]

I don't know about anybody's dogs but mine.

All i know, is when i change my dogs diet, she changes. For better or worse. Seizures, or an attentive happy dog.

MY dog craves raw meat. She does great on it. She feels her best.

That's all i can say.

So she has seizures on kibble?

All dogs crave raw meat, mine eats it just as excitedly as he eats his kibble. Unless it's half rotten, then he likes it better. Maybe I should start feeding him half rotten carcasses.

[displaced_texan]

Those same kibble fed dogs bled from the anus during the race. :/

Source? You can't just claim something, you need to be able to back it up.

"Here we go again," spinning my statements to benefit your own cause. What I said word for word was, kibble alone cannot supply the nutritional needs to compete at such a level. Now had I said only raw can supply the nutritional needs, you would be right, but I didn't. So once again you are wrong. As for the information you failed to find on what most sled dogs eat, I can help. Most feed a mixture of raw meat and dry dog food. Meats like beef, caribou, chicken, and other sources of fats and protein like salmon, turkey skins, seal fat and fish oil. The best information I found on what might produce the best diet for endurance was a 2009 article that was published in Mushing Magazine titled, Rendering sense into feeding. It was posted by Arleigh Reynolds PHD DVM. It is a detailed study done with the help of Oklahoma University, and shows what foods would produce the best diet for a sled dog in such a competition. Read it. I personally would prefer to take the word of someone who has spent most of their professional career studying sled dog nutrition then the kibble club.

I have much higher strength and endurance than most people. My diet isn't the same as Olympic athlete, you keep comparing different things.

[Cajun Casey]

BilJac frozen isn't raw or even close to raw. Raw meat isn't nutritionally dense due to the water content. The energy in raw diets depends on the fat content. Commercial raw diets (frozen) don't sell well because of cost and storage. Most of the raw feeders I know also supplement the heck out of their dogs. Cats do not do well on any raw diet except fish or rabbit. Feed what you want - it's your dog, your money and your choice.

[kibafang90]

I don't know about anybody's dogs but mine.

All i know, is when i change my dogs diet, she changes. For better or worse. Seizures, or an attentive happy dog.

MY dog craves raw meat. She does great on it. She feels her best.

That's all i can say.

So she has seizures on kibble?

All dogs crave raw meat, mine eats it just as excitedly as he eats his kibble. Unless it's half rotten, then he likes it better. Maybe I should start feeding him half rotten carcasses.

Your dog likes half rotten carcasses?
My bitch isn't your dog. We do not own the same dog. My bitch would NEVER touch that.. unless i forced it into her bowl day after day until she was starved and had to eat something, anything... the same as i used to put down her CHEAP purina kibble for her, day after day. Til she was forced to eat the crap. :/
Poor girl. I didn't know any better.
Lucky! You own a dog that simply doesn't mind about what he or she eats? I'm guessing you say she or he "does the same on kibble as raw"?
Good for you!

My dogs issues, almost all of them, clear up when fed raw.
She also performs better, can train "harder" and longer. And enjoys herself and all of her sports.

Also, could you please be as respectful to me as i have been to you?
You don't need to be sassy, with your "Maybe I should start feeding him half rotten carcasses"
I think you could have made your point without the sass talk.

[kibafang90]

Those same kibble fed dogs bled from the anus during the race. :/

Source? You can't just claim something, you need to be able to back it up.

"Here we go again," spinning my statements to benefit your own cause. What I said word for word was, kibble alone cannot supply the nutritional needs to compete at such a level. Now had I said only raw can supply the nutritional needs, you would be right, but I didn't. So once again you are wrong. As for the information you failed to find on what most sled dogs eat, I can help. Most feed a mixture of raw meat and dry dog food. Meats like beef, caribou, chicken, and other sources of fats and protein like salmon, turkey skins, seal fat and fish oil. The best information I found on what might produce the best diet for endurance was a 2009 article that was published in Mushing Magazine titled, Rendering sense into feeding. It was posted by Arleigh Reynolds PHD DVM. It is a detailed study done with the help of Oklahoma University, and shows what foods would produce the best diet for a sled dog in such a competition. Read it. I personally would prefer to take the word of someone who has spent most of their professional career studying sled dog nutrition then the kibble club.

I have much higher strength and endurance than most people. My diet isn't the same as Olympic athlete, you keep comparing different things.

Well i was just reading your conversation a bit.. and if you think of it.. walkos make more sense.. Not to take sides. :/
I mean, you say you are healthy.. but..What ARE you eating?
Have you tried eating processed bagged dry foods? Ramen?

Sure, you aren't eating like a olympic athlete.. because, well, you aren't one.. I'm sure if you did start intensive training that required you to change your diet, you would..

But if you think of it..
Dogs that ARE performing at such high levels. Running such lengths, and in such conditions that would kill an unconditioned dog..
That's what walkos point is.
Sorry to but into your convo.

[kibafang90]

Those same kibble fed dogs bled from the anus during the race. :/

Source? You can't just claim something, you need to be able to back it up.

Sorry, it was a while ago i read it, i don't have a link. :/
Do you not believe me or something?

[kibafang90]

Also, i think its not "raw vs kibble" in this convo.. It should be "cooked food vs kibble vs raw"
Ill go change the subject thingy.

[frontline]

All dogs crave raw meat, mine eats it just as excitedly as he eats his kibble. Unless it's half rotten, then he likes it better. Maybe I should start feeding him half rotten carcasses.

Not true. Some dogs won't touch it and are forced to learn to eat it.

[Cajun Casey]

Also, i think its not "raw vs kibble" in this convo.. It should be "cooked food vs kibble vs raw"
Ill go change the subject thingy.

You don't have a hunting dog. The mud, blood and oilpatch crud of reality does not apply to you. Run a string of a dozen dogs in rough country and see how important food is compared to barbed wire, snakebites, feral hogs and grass awns.

[slistoe]

Denied it? It was never asserted. The assertion made was that dog sledders fed raw because it was better for their dogs in the extreme endurance they demanded. Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of raw food diet, it is completely false.

"Here we go again," spinning my statements to benefit your own cause. What I said word for word was, kibble alone cannot supply the nutritional needs to compete at such a level. Now had I said only raw can supply the nutritional needs, you would be right, but I didn't. So once again you are wrong. As for the information you failed to find on what most sled dogs eat, I can help. Most feed a mixture of raw meat and dry dog food. Meats like beef, caribou, chicken, and other sources of fats and protein like salmon, turkey skins, seal fat and fish oil. The best information I found on what might produce the best diet for endurance was a 2009 article that was published in Mushing Magazine titled, Rendering sense into feeding. It was posted by Arleigh Reynolds PHD DVM. It is a detailed study done with the help of Oklahoma University, and shows what foods would produce the best diet for a sled dog in such a competition. Read it. I personally would prefer to take the word of someone who has spent most of their professional career studying sled dog nutrition then the kibble club.

Thank you for the link to that article. I read it and a couple of the other ones they had on their site. Quite an interesting read and quite informative, although not really anything different than Iams/Eukanuba was saying in the mid 80's. What it has to do with this discussion I am at a loss for however. You did have a rather interesting omission in your info above. The title of the article is "Rendering sense into feeding FAT". It really has nothing to do with kibble vs raw or raw vs cooked or anything other than how to best use FAT to fuel a sled dog for extreme endurance events. Some interesting quotes I found in there:

"The concept has been further developed today with the formulation of performance diets which are so high in protein and fat that they may work without the addition of meat."

"Although providing adequate amounts of fat is a key to success in fueling a sled dog, carbohydrates still play an important role, and this role may differ depending upon the arena in which the dog is expected to perform. On the sprint side, exercise intensity often exceeds 85% of VO2 max. Even though fats supply most of the energy up to 60% of VO2 max, the remaining 25% or so must come from carbohydrates and if that fuel source is depleted, speed and performance will decline. "

"Sled dogs have an innate tolerance for dietary fat levels that would literally kill other breeds of dogs. For many of the sporting breeds a high fat diet would be considered 30% of the total caloric intake. For sled dog purposes high fat diets generally range from 50-80% of the calories."

As an additional aside to this, I attended a training seminar in the mid 80's by a couple of prominent trial trainers whose dogs were well conditioned to the hour events. They both gave the same answer when asked if they had any "secret" food supplements to help their dogs. Now, you need to understand that this knowledge of theirs came from the school of hard knocks in decades of competition long before any of the studies referenced in this article or any of the articles that used to be available from Purina or Iams in the mid 80's. These fellow learned their art from their grandfathers and were near the end of decades long careers by then. The answer they both gave was .... LARD.

[MonsterDad]

Nothing can convince me that kibble is as good as fresh food, whether that fresh food includes cooked grains, potatoes, sweet potatoes or not.

I don't care what the studies say, the issue is whether fresh, human-grade food is better than bagged dry food, not the nutritional break-down of the diets. Bagged dry foods have an adequate nutritional profile but the quality is not as good as a fresh diet with ingredients you would eat.

I will often add cooked grains but I use only steel-cut oats, organic yellow corn, quinoa and spelt. Spelt is my favorite of all the grains.

[kibafang90]

Also, i think its not "raw vs kibble" in this convo.. It should be "cooked food vs kibble vs raw"
Ill go change the subject thingy.

You don't have a hunting dog. The mud, blood and oilpatch crud of reality does not apply to you. Run a string of a dozen dogs in rough country and see how important food is compared to barbed wire, snakebites, feral hogs and grass awns.

I'm an agility, flyball, schutzhund, obedience, trick training, tracking, dock diving, therapy, fan.
Hunting isn't the only dog sport that requires a dog to work hard around "dangers".
"reality does not apply to you" as in "you don't hunt, so you are not exposed to barbed wires, hogs and grass awns and other dangers."

Seriously. You act like i don't take my dog outside at all.

My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

Yet somehow, i STILL manage the time to worry about my dogs health and nutrition.

[Cajun Casey]

Also, i think its not "raw vs kibble" in this convo.. It should be "cooked food vs kibble vs raw"
Ill go change the subject thingy.

You don't have a hunting dog. The mud, blood and oilpatch crud of reality does not apply to you. Run a string of a dozen dogs in rough country and see how important food is compared to barbed wire, snakebites, feral hogs and grass awns.

I'm an agility, flyball, schutzhund, obedience, trick training, tracking, dock diving, therapy, fan.
Hunting isn't the only dog sport that requires a dog to work hard around "dangers".
"reality does not apply to you" as in "you don't hunt, so you are not exposed to barbed wires, hogs and grass awns and other dangers."

Seriously. You act like i don't take my dog outside at all.

My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

Yet somehow, i STILL manage the time to worry about my dogs health and nutrition.

Do you run marathons? Maybe you should Facebook friend Kyra Sundance. Right up your alley.

[kibafang90]

Do you run marathons? Maybe you should Facebook friend Kyra Sundance. Right up your alley.

I was JUSTT on facebook chatting with her through PM! :O Also was just chatting with "set means sit". Good kind people, who love dogs.
Why? You have problems with her?

[Cajun Casey]

Do you run marathons? Maybe you should Facebook friend Kyra Sundance. Right up your alley.

I was JUSTT on facebook chatting with her through PM! :O Also was just chatting with "set means sit". Good kind people, who love dogs.
Why? You have problems with her?

Nope, not at all. I sell her books.

[Mountaineer]

...My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

A good badger dog is worth it's weight in spelt.

[displaced_texan]

Sorry, it was a while ago i read it, i don't have a link. :/
Do you not believe me or something?

Nope. You're some crazy stranger on the Internet, of course I don't just believe whatever you say.

I read all sorts of stuff on the Internet. Some of it is true. Using the Internet I can prove that the earth is flat, that there is a god, that there isn't a god, that the moon landing was fake, that we were all created 6k years ago, that we evolved, etc...

I'm an agility, flyball, schutzhund, obedience, trick training, tracking, dock diving, therapy, fan.
Hunting isn't the only dog sport that requires a dog to work hard around "dangers".
"reality does not apply to you" as in "you don't hunt, so you are not exposed to barbed wires, hogs and grass awns and other dangers."

Seriously. You act like i don't take my dog outside at all.

My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

Yet somehow, i STILL manage the time to worry about my dogs health and nutrition.

Cool story. It took me almost 20 minutes to get all the seeds and awns out of Turbo's eyes Saturday, two runs, about 10 minutes after each. The wife cleaned Sage's eyes, they weren't quite as bad.

Get back to me when you quit worrying about cuts, and start laughing about bloody ears, split tongues, stripes down the back... Because there reaches a point where I have to laugh or cry, so I choose to laugh. Get back to me when a successful outing includes calling your wife on the way home to tell her that no one ripped their pads off, and only one dog is limping.

[Cajun Casey]

Sorry, it was a while ago i read it, i don't have a link. :/
Do you not believe me or something?

Nope. You're some crazy stranger on the Internet, of course I don't just believe whatever you say.

I read all sorts of stuff on the Internet. Some of it is true. Using the Internet I can prove that the earth is flat, that there is a god, that there isn't a god, that the moon landing was fake, that we were all created 6k years ago, that we evolved, etc...

I'm an agility, flyball, schutzhund, obedience, trick training, tracking, dock diving, therapy, fan.
Hunting isn't the only dog sport that requires a dog to work hard around "dangers".
"reality does not apply to you" as in "you don't hunt, so you are not exposed to barbed wires, hogs and grass awns and other dangers."

Seriously. You act like i don't take my dog outside at all.

My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

Yet somehow, i STILL manage the time to worry about my dogs health and nutrition.

Cool story. It took me almost 20 minutes to get all the seeds and awns out of Turbo's eyes Saturday, two runs, about 10 minutes after each. The wife cleaned Sage's eyes, they weren't quite as bad.

Get back to me when you quit worrying about cuts, and start laughing about bloody ears, split tongues, stripes down the back... Because there reaches a point where I have to laugh or cry, so I choose to laugh. Get back to me when a successful outing includes calling your wife on the way home to tell her that no one ripped their pads off, and only one dog is limping.

Don't forget the boys going through barbed wire instead of under it! Of course, we've never heeled in heels, have we?

[displaced_texan]

Sorry, it was a while ago i read it, i don't have a link. :/
Do you not believe me or something?

Nope. You're some crazy stranger on the Internet, of course I don't just believe whatever you say.

I read all sorts of stuff on the Internet. Some of it is true. Using the Internet I can prove that the earth is flat, that there is a god, that there isn't a god, that the moon landing was fake, that we were all created 6k years ago, that we evolved, etc...

I'm an agility, flyball, schutzhund, obedience, trick training, tracking, dock diving, therapy, fan.
Hunting isn't the only dog sport that requires a dog to work hard around "dangers".
"reality does not apply to you" as in "you don't hunt, so you are not exposed to barbed wires, hogs and grass awns and other dangers."

Seriously. You act like i don't take my dog outside at all.

My dog is probably "out there" as much as your dogs are. She just doesn't have an owner with a gun to shoot the badgers (and other creatures) she catches.. (so in turn she chokes them to death, then brings back to me all proud.)"

Yet somehow, i STILL manage the time to worry about my dogs health and nutrition.

Cool story. It took me almost 20 minutes to get all the seeds and awns out of Turbo's eyes Saturday, two runs, about 10 minutes after each. The wife cleaned Sage's eyes, they weren't quite as bad.

Get back to me when you quit worrying about cuts, and start laughing about bloody ears, split tongues, stripes down the back... Because there reaches a point where I have to laugh or cry, so I choose to laugh. Get back to me when a successful outing includes calling your wife on the way home to tell her that no one ripped their pads off, and only one dog is limping.

Don't forget the boys going through barbed wire instead of under it! Of course, we've never heeled in heels, have we?

Lol! At least Turbo slows down before he goes through it. I cringed I love fear every time Diesel went through one at full speed...

[ezzy333]

If your dog is bringing back badger she has strangled I will guarantee no matter what kind of an owner she has she is coming back bloody with ripped ears and would be real lucky to not have cuts across her stomach and possibly a few intestine showing. And if it is far enough away to find a badger I will also guarantee it has stopped and had a few bites of doggy desert commonly known as deer and horse manure, bear scat, and kitty litter plus a few unknowns lying beside the road. For some strange reason dogs will be dogs no matter how much we like to think they wouldn't. But it doesn't make a bit of difference how good an owner we are. They all do it.

Ezzy

[displaced_texan]

If your dog is bringing back badger she has strangled I will guarantee no matter what kind of an owner she has she is coming back bloody with ripped ears and would be real lucky to not have cuts across her stomach and possibly a few intestine showing. And if it is far enough away to find a badger I will also guarantee it has stopped and had a few bites of doggy desert commonly known as deer and horse manure, bear scat, and kitty litter plus a few unknowns lying beside the road. For some strange reason dogs will be dogs no matter how much we like to think they wouldn't. But it doesn't make a bit of difference how good an owner we are. They all do it.

Ezzy

Off topic...

A few years ago dad found a big coon that one of his dogs had killed during the night. She had several scrapes, but no real cuts. I was shocked and demanded pictures.

[Cajun Casey]

If your dog is bringing back badger she has strangled I will guarantee no matter what kind of an owner she has she is coming back bloody with ripped ears and would be real lucky to not have cuts across her stomach and possibly a few intestine showing. And if it is far enough away to find a badger I will also guarantee it has stopped and had a few bites of doggy desert commonly known as deer and horse manure, bear scat, and kitty litter plus a few unknowns lying beside the road. For some strange reason dogs will be dogs no matter how much we like to think they wouldn't. But it doesn't make a bit of difference how good an owner we are. They all do it.

Ezzy

Off topic...

A few years ago dad found a big coon that one of his dogs had killed during the night. She had several scrapes, but no real cuts. I was shocked and demanded pictures.

Casey killed a skunk so fast once he didn't even get sprayed.

[displaced_texan]

If your dog is bringing back badger she has strangled I will guarantee no matter what kind of an owner she has she is coming back bloody with ripped ears and would be real lucky to not have cuts across her stomach and possibly a few intestine showing. And if it is far enough away to find a badger I will also guarantee it has stopped and had a few bites of doggy desert commonly known as deer and horse manure, bear scat, and kitty litter plus a few unknowns lying beside the road. For some strange reason dogs will be dogs no matter how much we like to think they wouldn't. But it doesn't make a bit of difference how good an owner we are. They all do it.

Ezzy

Off topic...

A few years ago dad found a big coon that one of his dogs had killed during the night. She had several scrapes, but no real cuts. I was shocked and demanded pictures.

Casey killed a skunk so fast once he didn't even get sprayed.

Was the skunk in the same county he was last seen in?

[Cajun Casey]

Off topic...

A few years ago dad found a big coon that one of his dogs had killed during the night. She had several scrapes, but no real cuts. I was shocked and demanded pictures.

Casey killed a skunk so fast once he didn't even get sprayed.[/quote]
Was the skunk in the same county he was last seen in?[/quote]

It was, which made it even more amazing.

[walkos5]

Denied it? It was never asserted. The assertion made was that dog sledders fed raw because it was better for their dogs in the extreme endurance they demanded. Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of raw food diet, it is completely false.

"Here we go again," spinning my statements to benefit your own cause. What I said word for word was, kibble alone cannot supply the nutritional needs to compete at such a level. Now had I said only raw can supply the nutritional needs, you would be right, but I didn't. So once again you are wrong. As for the information you failed to find on what most sled dogs eat, I can help. Most feed a mixture of raw meat and dry dog food. Meats like beef, caribou, chicken, and other sources of fats and protein like salmon, turkey skins, seal fat and fish oil. The best information I found on what might produce the best diet for endurance was a 2009 article that was published in Mushing Magazine titled, Rendering sense into feeding. It was posted by Arleigh Reynolds PHD DVM. It is a detailed study done with the help of Oklahoma University, and shows what foods would produce the best diet for a sled dog in such a competition. Read it. I personally would prefer to take the word of someone who has spent most of their professional career studying sled dog nutrition then the kibble club.

Thank you for the link to that article. I read it and a couple of the other ones they had on their site. Quite an interesting read and quite informative, although not really anything different than Iams/Eukanuba was saying in the mid 80's. What it has to do with this discussion I am at a loss for however. You did have a rather interesting omission in your info above. The title of the article is "Rendering sense into feeding FAT". It really has nothing to do with kibble vs raw or raw vs cooked or anything other than how to best use FAT to fuel a sled dog for extreme endurance events. Some interesting quotes I found in there:

"The concept has been further developed today with the formulation of performance diets which are so high in protein and fat that they may work without the addition of meat."

"Although providing adequate amounts of fat is a key to success in fueling a sled dog, carbohydrates still play an important role, and this role may differ depending upon the arena in which the dog is expected to perform. On the sprint side, exercise intensity often exceeds 85% of VO2 max. Even though fats supply most of the energy up to 60% of VO2 max, the remaining 25% or so must come from carbohydrates and if that fuel source is depleted, speed and performance will decline. "

"Sled dogs have an innate tolerance for dietary fat levels that would literally kill other breeds of dogs. For many of the sporting breeds a high fat diet would be considered 30% of the total caloric intake. For sled dog purposes high fat diets generally range from 50-80% of the calories."

As an additional aside to this, I attended a training seminar in the mid 80's by a couple of prominent trial trainers whose dogs were well conditioned to the hour events. They both gave the same answer when asked if they had any "secret" food supplements to help their dogs. Now, you need to understand that this knowledge of theirs came from the school of hard knocks in decades of competition long before any of the studies referenced in this article or any of the articles that used to be available from Purina or Iams in the mid 80's. These fellow learned their art from their grandfathers and were near the end of decades long careers by then. The answer they both gave was .... LARD.

Well Thank you for taking the time to read the article. I get the sense that the quotes you posted have some alternative motive for something you are trying to say, then what they really mean. I took the information as proven evidence that fat and protein far outweigh carbs as part of a dogs diet. In fact I also read an article stating the fact that those dogs of the north can do just fine on a diet without any carbs. Something else that troubles me is how you jump to conclusions like, " Just like everything else that has been put up to "prove" the superiority of a raw food diet is completely false". If it is so false why are "100%" of those sled dog teams feeding large quantities of raw meat in the form of moose, caribou, seal, and other sources of natural protein like salmon? Yes they use dry dog food for added nutrition but from what I understand dry food is more of a means of feeding the dogs during summer months when they are inactive, and it is a matter of convience and economics. Huskies are classified as marine animals and that would explain the need for fish in the diet. The statement about high performance diets without meat surprised me too, but using the word "may" leaves room for doubt, may so, may not, may never, so we'll have to leave that up to research. As for how this information pertains to raw vs dry dog food, I thought it would be interesting to see how dogs other then hunting breeds get their nutrition and from what source. I do have respect for the generations past, for their experience and how they cared for their dogs. I too have heard about the addition of lard to the diet. Nothing wrong with that. In a the articles closing statement the author makes an interesting statement.

"It seems humorously ironic to me that if we were to put together all that we have learned from these studies that we would formulate a diet like that which was fed 1000 years ago". I wonder if there were any kibble makers back then Ezzy?

[Mountaineer]

... "It seems humorously ironic to me that if we were to put together all that we have learned from these studies that we would formulate a diet like that which was fed 1000 years ago". I wonder if there were any kibble makers back then Ezzy?

Perhaps, you might try a blue, jointed rapala and vary the speed.

[MonsterDad]

In fairness to Ezzy, the Romans and Egyptians did make grain-based kibbles to feed their dogs as they travelled to battle. Kibbles have been found in Roman and Egyptian ruins that were made of spelt.

The Romans used Mastiffs in battle and I doubt fresh meat was going to be fed to them while the soldiers were hungry.