Vet visit and diet.

[Garrison]

I took two of my dogs to vet the other day, both were due for some vaccines. The normal Dr. that I have seen for quite some time was out, so he had a sub in his place. He did a quick exam of my Lab and GSP before he gave them their vaccines and commented on how great they looked, great muscle tone, clear eyes, great coat ect. "I see so many animals in poor shape it is nice to see some healthy ones" He then asked me what I fed my dogs. I planned on telling him during the off season I feed them Canidae all life stages and during hunting season when they are working hard I feed them Loyall Professional. But before I could finish the words "ALL Life Stages" he interupted me and said that he didn't agree with feeding an all life stages food, food should be age appropriate blah blah blah canned Science Diet answer. I don't think he even realized what was coming out of his mouth. I just kind of laughed and said I will consider that next time I go buy dog food. The same food that I am feeding them now with good results. Weird!

[SD44]

That's interesting. I had the same problem here a few weeks ago. I have spent the last 8 or so weeks really working my 19 month GSP. I had to take him to the vet because he had an eye issue. I didn't get to see my regular vet and ended up seeing a fill in vet. She said his coat looked good but was told my dog was to skinny and he probably had worms. I asked her how much she dealt with sporting breeds and was scoffed at? I explained to her we had been working very hard the last two months getting ready for the upcoming season. He eats 3 to 4 cups of Purina Pro Plan Sport a day. When we are not training I still feed Purina Pro Plan Sport just to help maintain his weight. Fortunate for me, my regular vet came back from vacation and said he looked good. My regular vet deals with all sporting breeds and understands what a trial dog should look like.

I would look into finding another vet if I were you. This is just my opinion but when a vet usually sees over weight dogs, they don't realize what a fit dog should look like.

[ezzy333]

No way would I look for a different vet because they called my dog too thin and miss the chance to help educate them. And in these two cases it wasn't their vet to start with. If we aren't willing to teach then we become part of the problem.

Ezzy

[SD44]

Ezzy,

Even when we teach not all vets are willing to listen as was the case with the fill in vet I saw. Being a vet doesn't give you the right to insult someone's intelligence or turn your nose up at them. Lucky for me my regular vet took the time to school her on what a sporting breed should look like especially one that has been training as hard as we have been. A vet should take the time to learn and understand all breeds and the jobs that they do so they can provide the best medical care for their clients dogs, cats or horses. Had she owned her own practice, Yes, I would definitely look for another vet.

[cjhills]

I have very good vets who are experts at sewing my dogs up when they get cut and treating other health issues. I pay them to do things I could do myself, because they need to make a living the same as I do and I want them to be there when I need them. If we have disagreements on diet ,conditioning , shots or anything, else so be it. I am not going to change vets or feel insulted if their opinion is different than mine, It is just their opinion.
There are times when my well conditioned dogs who are hunting hard and traveling would look better and perhaps, be healthier if they were carrying more weight. .......................................Cj

[ezzy333]

I have very good vets who are experts at sewing my dogs up when they get cut and treating other health issues. I pay them to do things I could do myself, because they need to make a living the same as I do and I want them to be there when I need them. If we have disagreements on diet ,conditioning , shots or anything, else so be it. I am not going to change vets or feel insulted if their opinion is different than mine, It is just their opinion.
There are times when my well conditioned dogs who are hunting hard and traveling would look better and perhaps, be healthier if they were carrying more weight. .......................................Cj

+1 Well put!

[brewer]

Our old vet (before we moved) recommended Science Diet - this was many years ago when we started our 13 yr old lab. Since then, the formula has changed to be mostly grain based. We told our vet (education) to read the label before recommending this food again, and they were shocked the recipe had changed.

We now feed Nutrisource. With two dogs, the food bill is getting steep so we are switching to Diamond Naturals.

[MonsterDad]

My vet is very progressive when it comes to diet. He does sell Hills but he doesn't display it nor push it.

For therapeutic diets he has a gal from Penn that makes fresh diets in a frozen pouch that he does sell and it doesn't appear to be anymore expensive than the junk from Hills.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I took two of my dogs to vet the other day, both were due for some vacines. The normal Dr. that I have seen for quite some time was out so he had a sub in his place. He did a quick exam of my Lab and GSP before he gave them their vacines and commented on how great they looked, great muscle tone, clear eyes, great coat ect. "I see so many animals in poor shape it is nice to see some healthy ones" He then asked me what I fed my dogs. I planned on telling him during the off season I feed them Canidae all life stages and during hunting season when they are working hard I feed them Loyall Professional. But before I could finish the words "ALL Life Stages" he interupted me and said that he didn't agree with feeding an all life stages food, food should be age appropriate blah blah blah canned Science Diet answer. I don't think he even realized what was coming out of his mouth. I just kind of laughed and said I will consider that next time I go buy dog food. The same food that I am feeding them now with good results. Weird!

You ever wonder how much money the Science Diet company donates to VET Schools each year? Scholarships etc.?

[nanney1]

Some people take their car/truck to a mechanic that sells Valvoline, but when they do their oil changes, always use Castrol, Quaker State, or always use synthetic, etc.... Doesn't mean their mechanic isn't knowledgeable or needs educating.

[dog dr]

I took two of my dogs to vet the other day, both were due for some vacines. The normal Dr. that I have seen for quite some time was out so he had a sub in his place. He did a quick exam of my Lab and GSP before he gave them their vacines and commented on how great they looked, great muscle tone, clear eyes, great coat ect. "I see so many animals in poor shape it is nice to see some healthy ones" He then asked me what I fed my dogs. I planned on telling him during the off season I feed them Canidae all life stages and during hunting season when they are working hard I feed them Loyall Professional. But before I could finish the words "ALL Life Stages" he interupted me and said that he didn't agree with feeding an all life stages food, food should be age appropriate blah blah blah canned Science Diet answer. I don't think he even realized what was coming out of his mouth. I just kind of laughed and said I will consider that next time I go buy dog food. The same food that I am feeding them now with good results. Weird!

You ever wonder how much money the Science Diet company donates to VET Schools each year? Scholarships etc.?

here we go again... :roll:

[Chukar12]

Vet: ok everything looks good here, I suggest feeding xyz because of abc.

Me: thank you for your input, I will give it some thought. I appreciate what you do, and have a good day.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I took two of my dogs to vet the other day, both were due for some vacines. The normal Dr. that I have seen for quite some time was out so he had a sub in his place. He did a quick exam of my Lab and GSP before he gave them their vacines and commented on how great they looked, great muscle tone, clear eyes, great coat ect. "I see so many animals in poor shape it is nice to see some healthy ones" He then asked me what I fed my dogs. I planned on telling him during the off season I feed them Canidae all life stages and during hunting season when they are working hard I feed them Loyall Professional. But before I could finish the words "ALL Life Stages" he interupted me and said that he didn't agree with feeding an all life stages food, food should be age appropriate blah blah blah canned Science Diet answer. I don't think he even realized what was coming out of his mouth. I just kind of laughed and said I will consider that next time I go buy dog food. The same food that I am feeding them now with good results. Weird!

You ever wonder how much money the Science Diet company donates to VET Schools each year? Scholarships etc.?

here we go again... :roll:

Sorry Doc. That was not directed at you. My vet does not try to up-sell me on anything. It seems some of the Vets fresh out of school try to steer you in certain directions.

[Garrison]

I have no problem with the brand he was selling or the companies marketing strategy. If my business was dog nutrition I would want every vet I could get to say my product was good, which I am sure it is. Just seemed odd that "your dog looks great but you should be feeding something different" was said in the same breath. My normal vet is a good guy and has provided good service to me and my dogs for the last 15 years, I don't expect that to change.

[Chukar12]

it is odd

[dog dr]

You ever wonder how much money the Science Diet company donates to VET Schools each year? Scholarships etc.?

here we go again... :roll:

Sorry Doc. That was not directed at you. My vet does not try to up-sell me on anything. It seems some of the Vets fresh out of school try to steer you in certain directions.

no apology necessary! I jumped the gun a bit with my response. I am a little sensitive to the whole "the vets get free food and t-shirts from Hills so they all push science diet" response that we seem to get here, though. Not all of us have been brainwashed!

[ezzy333]

here we go again... :roll:

Sorry Doc. That was not directed at you. My vet does not try to up-sell me on anything. It seems some of the Vets fresh out of school try to steer you in certain directions.

no apology necessary! I jumped the gun a bit with my response. I am a little sensitive to the whole "the vets get free food and t-shirts from Hills so they all push science diet" response that we seem to get here, though. Not all of us have been brainwashed!

There always has been and I suppose always will be those people who always need a conspiracy going on or think everybody but themselves are a little dishonest. Human nature I suppose but I tend to think everyone is completely honest till they prove otherwise.

[MonsterDad]

So Ezzy, you think its fair and ethical for a Vet to charge $70 - $80 a bag for 30lbs of GMO-grade corn meal? How else would a product like that sell without the "guidance" of the Vet selling it? You don't think there is more to that story?

Be consistent with your views. You think spending that kind of money on a legitimately good food is a waste, so use the same approach on a legitimately bad product rather than pick the side you like the best. You like the "establishment" that is quite clear.

[birddog1968]

How did i know GMO was next

[dog dr]

How did i know GMO was next

[Peter]

I fall into that category of recent grads, but don't think it is quite fair to lump us all together, or challenge my ethics because I happen to sell dog food. Ill will be the first to admit I benefited from Hills in school but, I was also the first one my clinic to push for a shift away from Hills. Keep in mind that clinics have Purina, Royal Canin, Hills, and Iams in our clinics for their prescription diets primarily and other maintenance foods for connivence of clients and to provide a higher quality dog food than Ol'Roy and Kibble and Bits. People also have different opinions on weight (vets and clients both) I recently had a new client because the previous vet had called her dog over weight and she wanted to punch him, it was 110 lab in a 65-70 lb body frame. I also have a client concerned because her German Shepard dropped 20 lbs after adopting a new dog and her dogs activity had increased dramatically. I recommended she switch her dog to Pro Plan, a product we don't carry because we don't have room for it, because I think it superior to what we carry in our clinic. The dog needs to gain maybe five pounds to be where I think he should be for his hip health and in good body condition. I guess my point is that we aren't all bad(but i admit few vets have experience with any form of hunting dog) and out to gouge people of their money. We mostly try to provide quality medicine for our patients and fortunately my ethics are still intact.

Thanks

Peter

[MonsterDad]

How did i know GMO was next

Mexico just banned the cultivation of GMO corn.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _28510.cfm

In Europe, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria have legislative bans on GMO corn.

In Asia, Japan, Thailand and South Korea have similar bans.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I fall into that category of recent grads, but don't think it is quite fair to lump us all together, or challenge my ethics because I happen to sell dog food. Ill will be the first to admit I benefited from Hills in school but, I was also the first one my clinic to push for a shift away from Hills. Keep in mind that clinics have Purina, Royal Canin, Hills, and Iams in our clinics for their prescription diets primarily and other maintenance foods for connivence of clients and to provide a higher quality dog food than Ol'Roy and Kibble and Bits. People also have different opinions on weight (vets and clients both) I recently had a new client because the previous vet had called her dog over weight and she wanted to punch him, it was 110 lab in a 65-70 lb body frame. I also have a client concerned because her German Shepard dropped 20 lbs after adopting a new dog and her dogs activity had increased dramatically. I recommended she switch her dog to Pro Plan, a product we don't carry because we don't have room for it, because I think it superior to what we carry in our clinic. The dog needs to gain maybe five pounds to be where I think he should be for his hip health and in good body condition. I guess my point is that we aren't all bad(but i admit few vets have experience with any form of hunting dog) and out to gouge people of their money. We mostly try to provide quality medicine for our patients and fortunately my ethics are still intact.

Thanks

Peter

Good for you Peter. It is never good to generalize. Glad you are a part of the forum.

[ezzy333]

So Ezzy, you think its fair and ethical for a Vet to charge $70 - $80 a bag for 30lbs of GMO-grade corn meal? How else would a product like that sell without the "guidance" of the Vet selling it? You don't think there is more to that story?

Be consistent with your views. You think spending that kind of money on a legitimately good food is a waste, so use the same approach on a legitimately bad product rather than pick the side you like the best. You like the "establishment" that is quite clear.

I do not think the word ethical has anything to do with it unless they are forcing you to buy it. It is there for you to buy if you want to and if not buy something else. Just that simple. If you are having problems with doing that I would let someone else buy the dog food for you.

I do think you will find there is little of it sold since I am sure you can find other brands that are as good or better for less money. I can't say much more about it since I am not anymore familiar with their formulas than you are and I have never used any of it nor included it in any feeding test.

As far as GMO corn is concerned I have never wasted my time worrying about it since we have been genetically modifying corn now for nearly 100 years. It is just recently that anyone was concerned about it but it is a great subject to argue about. I have no idea what your back ground is but evidently you are not familiar with the progress of the past few years of improving yields in most all of our farm crops during this time. And it all goes back to improved plants due to genetical changes.

I think it would carry a lot more weight when you start rating the quality of a feed if you would explain or show us why instead of just saying which I like best. And I have never really tried to place you or anyone else for that matter in a box titled individual consumer against "Establishment" for the very reason that most of those individuals that are part of your "Establishment" are also the individual consumer. How do you separate them out when there is almost 100% overlap?

This thread has been interesting as it allows everyone a place to state their opinions. It also has pointed out those that let their opinions govern what they think everyone else should believe, even when the evidence points elsewhere. In my mind Hill's is not a feed I would use ordinarily but I also think they have the right to make it and market it however they like. And I can not find the word ethical or unethical in that opinion.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

How did i know GMO was next

Mexico just banned the cultivation of GMO corn.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _28510.cfm

In Europe, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria have legislative bans on GMO corn.

In Asia, Japan, Thailand and South Korea have similar bans.

As far as I know all of those countries still have room for anyone that feels their country is a better place than the USA. That flag on the side of the plane I flew was the USA's. And the reason we were there is so the people of every country should have the right to believe whatever they wanted. It wasn't to make them choose the right answer but just the freedom to believe what they wanted.

Ezzy

[dog dr]

I fall into that category of recent grads, but don't think it is quite fair to lump us all together, or challenge my ethics because I happen to sell dog food. Ill will be the first to admit I benefited from Hills in school but, I was also the first one my clinic to push for a shift away from Hills. Keep in mind that clinics have Purina, Royal Canin, Hills, and Iams in our clinics for their prescription diets primarily and other maintenance foods for connivence of clients and to provide a higher quality dog food than Ol'Roy and Kibble and Bits. People also have different opinions on weight (vets and clients both) I recently had a new client because the previous vet had called her dog over weight and she wanted to punch him, it was 110 lab in a 65-70 lb body frame. I also have a client concerned because her German Shepard dropped 20 lbs after adopting a new dog and her dogs activity had increased dramatically. I recommended she switch her dog to Pro Plan, a product we don't carry because we don't have room for it, because I think it superior to what we carry in our clinic. The dog needs to gain maybe five pounds to be where I think he should be for his hip health and in good body condition. I guess my point is that we aren't all bad(but i admit few vets have experience with any form of hunting dog) and out to gouge people of their money. We mostly try to provide quality medicine for our patients and fortunately my ethics are still intact.

Thanks

Peter

well said!

[dog dr]

How did i know GMO was next

Mexico just banned the cultivation of GMO corn.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _28510.cfm

In Europe, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria have legislative bans on GMO corn.

In Asia, Japan, Thailand and South Korea have similar bans.

well, one thing is for sure. I definitely want the USA to make sure they follow right in line and do everything all those countries do....NOT. :roll: :roll:

[Cajun Casey]

A vet will see any given one of my mutts for fifteen minutes a year, typically. You bet I'm going to put a lot of weight on some unsolicited comment. Really?

[MonsterDad]

So Ezzy, you think its fair and ethical for a Vet to charge $70 - $80 a bag for 30lbs of GMO-grade corn meal? How else would a product like that sell without the "guidance" of the Vet selling it? You don't think there is more to that story?

Be consistent with your views. You think spending that kind of money on a legitimately good food is a waste, so use the same approach on a legitimately bad product rather than pick the side you like the best. You like the "establishment" that is quite clear.

I do not think the word ethical has anything to do with it unless they are forcing you to buy it. It is there for you to buy if you want to and if not buy something else. Just that simple. If you are having problems with doing that I would let someone else buy the dog food for you.

I do think you will find there is little of it sold since I am sure you can find other brands that are as good or better for less money. I can't say much more about it since I am not anymore familiar with their formulas than you are and I have never used any of it nor included it in any feeding test.

As far as GMO corn is concerned I have never wasted my time worrying about it since we have been genetically modifying corn now for nearly 100 years. It is just recently that anyone was concerned about it but it is a great subject to argue about. I have no idea what your back ground is but evidently you are not familiar with the progress of the past few years of improving yields in most all of our farm crops during this time. And it all goes back to improved plants due to genetical changes.

I think it would carry a lot more weight when you start rating the quality of a feed if you would explain or show us why instead of just saying which I like best. And I have never really tried to place you or anyone else for that matter in a box titled individual consumer against "Establishment" for the very reason that most of those individuals that are part of your "Establishment" are also the individual consumer. How do you separate them out when there is almost 100% overlap?

This thread has been interesting as it allows everyone a place to state their opinions. It also has pointed out those that let their opinions govern what they think everyone else should believe, even when the evidence points elsewhere. In my mind Hill's is not a feed I would use ordinarily but I also think they have the right to make it and market it however they like. And I can not find the word ethical or unethical in that opinion.

Ezzy

As is often the case, your facts are not correct. The first GMO or transgenic plant that was commercialized was tobacco in 1983. Then in 1993 the delayed ripening tomato. The first crop of GMO Round Up Ready soy was not planted until after 1996. So you are wrong in saying they were around for 100 years.

Improving yields and improving nutrition by hybridization is one thing, that has been going on forever, but putting genetic smart bombs in plants is quite another. We are still debating how to deal with collapsing bee colonies but the solution is being implemented all over the world and the bees are coming back. How much longer does the USDA need to study Neonicotinoid modified seed before it finds what many other countries found in 30 days.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Uhaa what was the question? Are we on a "side trip"?

[birddog1968]

How did i know GMO was next

Mexico just banned the cultivation of GMO corn.

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _28510.cfm

In Europe, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Luxembourg, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria have legislative bans on GMO corn.

In Asia, Japan, Thailand and South Korea have similar bans.

Yea, 90 percent of the corn in the US is GMO.....wildlife love it, corn ear worms love it and a ton of americans eat it daily. Its all hype that there is
anything wrong with it.....

[displaced_texan]

I think it would carry a lot more weight when you start rating the quality of a feed if you would explain or show us why instead of just saying which I like best.
Ezzy

Why don't you provide the same standard of proof when you talk?

[ezzy333]

I think it would carry a lot more weight when you start rating the quality of a feed if you would explain or show us why instead of just saying which I like best.
Ezzy

Why don't you provide the same standard of proof when you talk?

I suppose I better explain it to you. The difference is I am not rating which feed is better because I don't know. I have tried to point out the pitfalls as well as the good points so which might help you make an intelligent decision of what you want to feed and so you don't get started with something and then find out there is more to it than you were led to believe. Claybuster had a good post where he explained what he found out from his experiences. He still would like to feed a raw diet but pointed out how expensive it is as well as time consuming if you do it right. And if you noticed no one asked for his source. Most of my knowledge comes from experiences that I have working in the field for a coop that worked closely with the land grant universities, as well as our research farm and also Purina's research which was quite extensive. If you want to go back and look I am sure there was a lot of information published and also a lot of it wasn't since it was being done for the manufactures of the different products before it was put on the market. I know in our own case we run feed test on the research farms and then supplied several large consumers with the product to help insure it worked as well out in the country as it did in the research facility be fore it was ever put on the market. I think Purina did the same thing but I can't say for sure.

Hope this helps you understand why I do post quite often on the dog food wars we have on the board but I do not post what feed is better or recommend what feed to use to people who are wanting to know. I have said a thousand of times that if you have a brand that is readily available, one that you can afford, and your dog likes it , that is the feed you should use. And with that, I have told you about all I know. But if you need more info , I would be glad to sit down over a cold one and discuss it with you.

Ezzy

[displaced_texan]

I think it would carry a lot more weight when you start rating the quality of a feed if you would explain or show us why instead of just saying which I like best.
Ezzy

Why don't you provide the same standard of proof when you talk?

I suppose I better explain it to you. The difference is I am not rating which feed is better because I don't know. I have tried to point out the pitfalls as well as the good points so which might help you make an intelligent decision of what you want to feed and so you don't get started with something and then find out there is more to it than you were led to believe. Claybuster had a good post where he explained what he found out from his experiences. He still would like to feed a raw diet but pointed out how expensive it is as well as time consuming if you do it right. And if you noticed no one asked for his source. Most of my knowledge comes from experiences that I have working in the field for a coop that worked closely with the land grant universities, as well as our research farm and also Purina's research which was quite extensive. If you want to go back and look I am sure there was a lot of information published and also a lot of it wasn't since it was being done for the manufactures of the different products before it was put on the market. I know in our own case we run feed test on the research farms and then supplied several large consumers with the product to help insure it worked as well out in the country as it did in the research facility be fore it was ever put on the market. I think Purina did the same thing but I can't say for sure.

Hope this helps you understand why I do post quite often on the dog food wars we have on the board but I do not post what feed is better or recommend what feed to use to people who are wanting to know. I have said a thousand of times that if you have a brand that is readily available, one that you can afford, and your dog likes it , that is the feed you should use. And with that, I have told you about all I know. But if you need more info , I would be glad to sit down over a cold one and discuss it with you.

Ezzy

Now you're actually giving the me background! That's what I've been wanting, some sort of idea WHY we should listen to what you say about nutrition.

I spend a lot of time on a diesel forum, there is always someone with a better idea for a turbo, or a camshaft, or an injector, or any other of a myriad of parts... But if they came out to try to convince anyone of anything without verifiable proof, they will be CRUCIFIED. It doesn't matter how much experience they say they have, because it's all words, for all we know they were a janitor at a shop. However if they can produce turbo maps, dyno numbers, time slips, flow numbers, whatever, to show in some way that the new part actually works, that's great. That's actually proving something.

And when you vaguely reference feed studies that you worked on, it does nothing to prove or back up anything. It's just like an unverified claim that this part will work great. It's a start, but it's not really an answer.

I like to learn, and I've learned way more from actually reading and trying to understand research and studies than by being told that when tested something worked great.

I agree with you on how to pick a feed... And if you were closer I'd buy you a beer and tell you what I feed. Lol