need advice

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BigJake
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need advice

Post by BigJake » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:38 pm

I have a one year old English setter, he was born in October. Up until last summer he was doing fine, then came June and he started biting his hair off. Took him to the vet, he looked him over said it was not allergies, he said allergies would be more wide spread. He gave him a cortisone shot and did a skin scrape for mange which he said he did not have. After a couple weeks he started biting more, the cortisone never did really stop it. Took him back to the vet, he decided to put him on prednisone, which one again slowed down the biting but did not stop it, did another skin scrape which showed up nothing. I felt that the prednisone was just masking a problem and not helping all that much, so I took him to a skin specialist, they ran more tests on him and did another skin scrape which showed nothing. They said it must be allergies, i switched dog food to grain free chicken free and kept him on prednisone. That is not working and I am sick and tired of paying vet bills that are giving me no answers. They thought it could be a seasonal allergy and to wait for the ground to freeze, well we had are first Frost about a month ago, and quite a few since, but my dog shows no let up. I have contacted my breeder a few times, but she is not any help, she said she has never had a dog with allergies, but has had some with mange, I asked if she bred the dogs with mange, and never got an answer, for I heard that it could be hereditary and dogs with it should not be bred, don't know if that's true or not, I am not a breeder. I am just a frustrated owner of an English setter who is just looking for a cure. Any help would be appreciated. I have attached a photo to show what he looks like.
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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: need advice

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:54 pm

It seems that the two vets would have identified it if it was the mange. Don't trash your breeder unless you know for sure. I am sure they took you through a litany of questions like: chemicals around the house, new carpet, etc. etc. There are two types of allergies, food borne and environmental. I assume you have had both tests run on him. We have several DVM's on the Forum, hopefully they can give you other ideas. I feel sorry for both of you, particularly your setter. :?

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Re: need advice

Post by Labs4Me » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:00 pm

I suggest you get the thyroid checked. Ask your vet to run a full panel through MSU.

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:07 pm

Thanks AZ,
Not trashing the breeder, but when you ask them questions and get little to no response, it makes it difficult. My only concern is my dog and being unable to help him makes it extremely hard on both of us. I do not like to see animals suffer, and he is such a nice boy. I just want to get him cured, or at the very least, know what is causing his discomfort.

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:10 pm

Labs4me,
How would the thyroid cause itching?

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Re: need advice

Post by Labs4Me » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:28 pm

Thyroid hormone is essential to healthy skin and a lot of other bodily functions including the immune system, so skin problems that may look like allergies can involve hypothyroidism.

English Setters have one of the highest incidences of hypothyroidism due to autoimmune thyroiditis.

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Re: need advice

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:18 pm

Don't rule out fleas. A single bite can cause that reaction in a highly allergic dog. Also look for possible environmental sources, particularly plants. I agree with the thyroid panel, also.
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Re: need advice

Post by MonsterDad » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:33 pm

Does the dog have that issue on the other side of his body? Symmetrical?

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:37 pm

No just that side, everything else is normal.

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Re: need advice

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:46 pm

Skin problems can be some of the toughest to diagnose & can become very expensive trying.

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Re: need advice

Post by MonsterDad » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:18 pm

BigJake wrote:No just that side, everything else is normal.
Well if it was thyroid the hair loss probably would be symmetrical over the body not just on one side.

You sure there are no fleas in the house?

Did the vet suggest anything like OTC allergy medication like zyrtec or benedryl?

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Re: need advice

Post by gripper39 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:38 pm

Same exact issue with my Setter. Try apple cider vinager it works no joke my dog stopped itching and the redness and inflammation went down big time in a day.

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:46 pm

Gripper39
How much did you give him, and do you still give it to him?

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Sharon
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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:39 am

I'm not a vet ; my dog looked like that once. Scrapings showed nothing . My vet prescribed Advantage 55 Multi for 6 months and problem disappeared. She decided the sarcoptic mites were there but can't always be found with a skin scraping.. Not saying this will work for your dog but............

itch gone in a week, hair back fully in 6 months
Last edited by Sharon on Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: need advice

Post by Fun dog » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:14 pm

I have a friend that struggled with a dog like that for years. She finally tried a gluten free diet and the dogs hair grew in. Don't know if it would work with your or not, but might be worth looking into.

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Re: need advice

Post by dog dr » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:30 pm

Sharon wrote:I'm not a vet ; my dog looked like that once. Scrapings showed nothing . My vet prescribed Advantage 55 Multi for 6 months and problem disappeared. She decided the sarcoptic mites were there but can't always be found with a skin scraping.. Not saying this will work for your dog but............
+1. the sarcoptic mites can be hard to find.

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Re: need advice

Post by dr tim » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:19 am

I agree. When itching persists despite prednisone and a young dog always treat for mange, specifically sarcoptic in this case. Ivermectin might just stop this in its tracks. Sarcoptic is difficult to find versus demodectic mange(so called "puppy mange" )where you would finds lots of them on a skin scraping, especially after prednisone use. Food allergies can cause this in some cases but the itch seems too severe, seasonal allergies should have gotten better with pred and too young for thyroid. Still needs antibiotics for the secondary infection from scratching.

Bet you dinner it is sarcoptic, though. I'll take barbeque.

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:56 am

Dr. Tim
I like doing bbq, I am going treat him for sarcoptic mange, I was thinking of using revolution, do you think this is a good way to go for it.

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Re: need advice

Post by dr tim » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:06 pm

I have not used Revulotion personally on a dog for scabies but all I have read says it works. Ivomec orally is the method I have used but both are proper. Let us know if it works as you should see the itch stop with in a week.

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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:29 pm

BigJake wrote:Dr. Tim
I like doing bbq, I am going treat him for sarcoptic mange, I was thinking of using revolution, do you think this is a good way to go for it.
Sharon" wrote:
I'm not a vet ; my dog looked like that once. Scrapings showed nothing . My vet prescribed Advantage 55 Multi for 6 months and problem disappeared. She decided the sarcoptic mites were there but can't always be found with a skin scraping.. Not saying this will work for your dog but............

itch gone in a week, hair back fully in 6 months

..............................................................

Assuming it's mange why not use what worked for me? Yes it's more money . I'm offended. :)
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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:58 pm

Sharon, did not want to offend, my vet does not carry advantage 55, he has revolution. Advantage 55 was the first thing I asked for, said he had good results with revolution, if it turns out to be mites. Hope we can still be friends:) if it works you can come to the bbq with dr.tim.

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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:46 pm

BigJake wrote:Sharon, did not want to offend, my vet does not carry advantage 55, he has revolution. Advantage 55 was the first thing I asked for, said he had good results with revolution, if it turns out to be mites. Hope we can still be friends:) if it works you can come to the bbq with dr.tim.

LOL Okay. :)
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Re: need advice

Post by MonsterDad » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:49 pm

Advantage 55 is known in the USA as Advantage Multi. A six tablet container is around $80 plus you need a prescription for it.

It is for fleas but not ticks, heartworms and common intestinal worms primarily. I guess it has off label use for mange.

I think I would just ask your vet to show you how to dose 1% ivermectin liquid that any feed store has. That seems to be the drug of choice for mange.

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Re: need advice

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:53 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Advantage 55 is known in the USA as Advantage Multi. A six tablet container is around $80 plus you need a prescription for it.

It is for fleas but not ticks, heartworms and common intestinal worms primarily. I guess it has off label use for mange.

I think I would just ask your vet to show you how to dose 1% ivermectin liquid that any feed store has. That seems to be the drug of choice for mange.
Most vets we work with have gone to Advantage Multi or Revolution for redundant sarcoptic sp. treatment. It far outperforms the oral treatment. Sorry, but cheaping out isn't always the way to go.
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Re: need advice

Post by kninebirddog » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:59 pm

dog dr wrote:
Sharon wrote:I'm not a vet ; my dog looked like that once. Scrapings showed nothing . My vet prescribed Advantage 55 Multi for 6 months and problem disappeared. She decided the sarcoptic mites were there but can't always be found with a skin scraping.. Not saying this will work for your dog but............
+1. the sarcoptic mites can be hard to find.
+2 agree whole heartedly

I have seen a dog that was treated for allergies for 5 years. Then the owner bred the female :roll: :? anyways about 6 weeks of age all the puppies began to itch and loose hair. vet found the mange on the pup as once the skin begins to bleed the mites move on to a new spot and that is what makes it so hard for themto be found.
as for thyroid yes that can compromise the immune systemthus allowing the animal not to be able to ward off the mites this includes demodetic mange.

I would go through an aggressive attack internally and externally for mites that way you can rule them out. Hopefully that helps if not then go down the list of possible other autoimmune issues.

Good Luck
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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:35 pm

That is my thinking right now, if it turns out not to be mites, I am going to get a thyroid panel run next. I so appreciate all the help and a direction to go, I am hoping to finally get a healthy happy puppy once again.

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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:46 pm

Apparently from what I've read , all dogs have mites. Their immune system keeps it under control .When the immune system is weakened , the mites take over. Why my dog would have had a weakened immune system is my real question. Maybe I won't let her sleep in my bed anymore. :)

Done research on the subject and of course you see all kind of possibilities:

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... une+system.
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Re: need advice

Post by dog dr » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:05 am

Sharon wrote:Apparently from what I've read , all dogs have mites. Their immune system keeps it under control .When the immune system is weakened , the mites take over. Why my dog would have had a weakened immune system is my real question. Maybe I won't let her sleep in my bed anymore. :)

Done research on the subject and of course you see all kind of possibilities:

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... une+system.
that applies for Demodectic mange, but Sarcoptic mange is not ordinarily found on healthy dogs. Demodex is a lot easier to find on a skin scrape.

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Re: need advice

Post by Gordon Guy » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:00 am

Apparently from what I've read , all dogs have mites. Their immune system keeps it under control .When the immune system is weakened , the mites take over. Why my dog would have had a weakened immune system is my real question. Maybe I won't let her sleep in my bed anymore.

Done research on the subject and of course you see all kind of possibilities:
Corn.. :lol:

I was kidding when I said corn but food allergies can have an impact and show up in a dog in unusual ways. One of my dogs is allergic to wheat and or corn and it shows up with frequent ear infections. At the vets sugestion I changed dog food and the problem went away,. I didn't believe that there could be a link between the two, so I went back to a food with wheat and or corn and the ear infections came back. Go figure!
Tom

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Re: need advice

Post by dog dr » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:11 am

Gordon Guy wrote:
Apparently from what I've read , all dogs have mites. Their immune system keeps it under control .When the immune system is weakened , the mites take over. Why my dog would have had a weakened immune system is my real question. Maybe I won't let her sleep in my bed anymore.

Done research on the subject and of course you see all kind of possibilities:
Corn.. :lol:

I was kidding when I said corn but food allergies can have an impact and show up in a dog in unusual ways. One of my dogs is allergic to wheat and or corn and it shows up with frequent ear infections. At the vets sugestion I changed dog food and the problem went away,. I didn't believe that there could be a link between the two, so I went back to a food with wheat and or corn and the ear infections came back. Go figure!
just depends on what the dog is allergic to.

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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:46 pm

dog dr wrote:
Sharon wrote:Apparently from what I've read , all dogs have mites. Their immune system keeps it under control .When the immune system is weakened , the mites take over. Why my dog would have had a weakened immune system is my real question. Maybe I won't let her sleep in my bed anymore. :)

Done research on the subject and of course you see all kind of possibilities:

https://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=n ... une+system.
that applies for Demodectic mange, but Sarcoptic mange is not ordinarily found on healthy dogs. Demodex is a lot easier to find on a skin scrape.

....................................................

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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:38 pm

Well I put the revolution on Luke, all that's left is to cross my fingers and hope it works:)

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Re: need advice

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:20 pm

Did the vet say one dose would show an improvement?
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Re: need advice

Post by BigJake » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:10 am

Hi Sharon,
If it is sarcoptic, he should start showing results in about a week. The vet gave me a three month supply. So I am hoping in the next few days the itching and biting stop:)

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Re: need advice

Post by pointstar » Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:21 am

If this has been happening since June, and you took the dog to the vet in June, and there is still little to no improvement in 5 months.... I would look for a second opinion from another vet. One other thing that you might try, is to see if any other pups in this litter have a similar situation as this would rule out mites and indicate that an allergy or genetic situation is the cause. Good luck....

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Re: need advice

Post by brittfans » Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:08 am

I had a similar problem the vet used ivermictin just in case it was mange .after spending over 500 $ on another vet to find the problem .
It cost me around 10$ to treat 3 dogs with ivermictin and was good in just a few days.

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