What do you feed your Dogs?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:52 am

Pastor Brown wrote:the closest time I've seen it live was around 150-180 yards with a scope, they were definitely pulling out & eating entrails.

I have also come up on multiple carcasses and found the organs as much eaten as the muscle tissue.

My main point however, is that the butt - stomach area is always the point of entry.

Very true. And I have witnessed it quite a few times. If you are not there to witness the other clue is look what is left a couple of hours after a kill. The innards and content is gone. It is not hard to figure out what is happening but one of the fun things that my son and I have enjoyed is sitting in a blind with cameras and watch the wildlife in the area. It is rather amazing to see just what goes on when everything is not being disturbed.

BH, I appreciate your willingness to read what is being posted and I am trying to tell you what I have learned over the years from both study and experience. I know how hard it is to let go of some of your opinions you have had for years. I had the same thing happen but when you see the actual tests and the results it becomes impossible to not learn from them. Purina, our land grant universities have been leaders in the field but there are many other entities that have done research also. I am going to tell you with out a qualm that there are hundreds of good feeds on the market and the companies making them are trying their hardest to provide the best quality they can since no business in the area of feed manufacturing has ever succeeded that hasn't made a quality product. They rely on repeat business to survive and you don't do that if your product does not perform to the customers satisfaction. I admit there are a lot of companies who let their sales department write their adds and they are badly overstated in most cases. It bothers me as much as it does you, but if you do your homework and forget most of what you read and have read you will gradually see what true animal nutrition is all about.

And Frontline, I would appreciate if you would show the research or where ever you get your info. If I made a lot of mistakes in my dissertation I will have to admit I have made mistakes before and I have learned how to handle them but before I apologize to you and the world I want some proof that what I have learned is wrong. Then you will get the apology along with my appreciation of you teaching me something new.

Ezzy

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:15 am

I can offer this...but I would have to dig out some boxes to get the references. Back in late 90's, Redwolves in captivity had mandated feeding requirements under the SSP. Dry kibble (with nutritional analysis requirements I forget but the one we fed was 27 protein 18 fat - mineral content required but I forget) supplemented with ground raw meat made for zoo carnivores. Contained ground bones and organs and muscle.
These captive wolves had a sedentary life with very little activity.
Dogs are no longer wolves, of course.

Really all off topic though. "Why " was not part of the question. Just what do you feed?

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:17 am

AlbertaChessie wrote:Not quite sure where youre from, but its obvious youre from an area lacking in wolves. Ill send the two cattle I lost this year a memo that the fact their stomach was blown out long before any meat was taken by wolves was a complete fluke, and they should let the wolves know theyre apparently doing it wrong.Why do guys comment on things they have absolutely no knowledge of

The word carnivore doesn't pertain to just wolves. We do know that carnivores eat some of the intestines and they also eat the organs, and just about everything inside their prey. what we are trying to tell you is they do not eat the contents within the stomach. It is greenish yellow slime with partly digested vegetation in it and smells as bad as it looks and could eat the paint off of a car. Haven't you ever gutted a deer and cut into the stomach accidently??

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:38 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote:Not quite sure where youre from, but its obvious youre from an area lacking in wolves. Ill send the two cattle I lost this year a memo that the fact their stomach was blown out long before any meat was taken by wolves was a complete fluke, and they should let the wolves know theyre apparently doing it wrong.Why do guys comment on things they have absolutely no knowledge of
The word carnivore doesn't pertain to just wolves. We do know that carnivores eat some of the intestines and they also eat the organs, and just about everything inside their prey. what we are trying to tell you is they do not eat the contents within the stomach. It is greenish yellow slime with partly digested vegetation in it and smells as bad as it looks and could eat the paint off of a car. Haven't you ever gutted a deer and cut into the stomach accidently??

I concede. Everyone with practical experience and first-hand knowledge is wrong, you and your beliefs are spot on.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:16 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
slistoe wrote:
frontline wrote: The obvious faux pas, wolves, cats etc. eat the stomach contents of their prey first. They do not, it's a myth. If they are consuming a small animal it gets eaten automatically but in a larger prey it is avoided.
Perhaps a little knowledge yourself before you start calling someone on it. Coyotes and wolves certainly do not avoid the intestines of large animals, and they most certainly do eat it first. I didn't read this in a book somewhere, I have witnessed more than just a few large animals being eaten by coyotes and wolves and the pattern has been consistent in every single one of them.
Perhaps they're after the organs and stomach lining, because everything I have read says they do not eat the contents within the stomach and they actually avoid it. How close were you when you were watching them, is it possible it just looked like they were eating stomach contents. Perhaps a starving carnivore in an attempt to get his share might accidently eat it but it doesn't sound like the norm.

Next time I see a wolf I will ask him. All I know to be a fact in this matter is that there is no stomach contents left lying about the carcass - ever. Whether by design or accident they are gone.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:23 pm

That's B_H problem he gets his info from the web,books,dr.s every place but real life I have seen it in the wild outdoors.I guess when I see dogs,or coyote eating Rd apples,Cat s--t & guts from killed deer in the field & the rear end of dead animals ate out before the rest of the animals meat I'm seeing things.This is not counting over 40 yrs of feeding & raising numerous dogs,showing & FT plus hunting & the results of feeding kibble.
He is feeding one dog & knows all the answers because he just knows he's right & our REAL LIFE experience means nothing.I use to know more then I know now when I was younger TOO!! :roll:

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:09 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:That's B_H problem he gets his info from the web,books,dr.s every place but real life I have seen it in the wild outdoors.I guess when I see dogs,or coyote eating Rd apples,Cat s--t & guts from killed deer in the field & the rear end of dead animals ate out before the rest of the animals meat I'm seeing things.This is not counting over 40 yrs of feeding & raising numerous dogs,showing & FT plus hunting & the results of feeding kibble.
He is feeding one dog & knows all the answers because he just knows he's right & our REAL LIFE experience means nothing.I use to know more then I know now when I was younger TOO!! :roll:

Vonzepplin not everything needs to be experienced to learn and reading can prepare us for things we might experience. In my opinion all parties are partly right when looking at this argument from another angle. Read ahead, one party says wolves don't eat the stomach of their prey but wolves actually do but only the lining as they try to shake any matter out of the stomach to clean the lining and often distribute the matter all over the ground at the kill site. So they do eat some of the stomach but just not the contents inside. See, we resolved everything with just a little thought and research. WIN WIN for everyone !!

http://www.rawnecessities.co.za/content ... s-stomachs
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:49 pm

Same ole same ole internet not real life experiences.Carry on with your self! Oh & when you want to train a dog or have a training question READ a book or an article better then real hands on experience!! :roll:

Do you see how SILLY that sounds? but maybe you don't!

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:20 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Same ole same ole internet not real life experiences.Carry on with your self! Oh & when you want to train a dog or have a training question READ a book or an article better then real hands on experience!! :roll:

Do you see how SILLY that sounds? but maybe you don't!

Actually I don't, because I have learned quite a bit from this forum and it was all just from reading. Look at what we just learned in one day about wolves. Don't ya just love learning about wildlife and the outdoors!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:38 pm

Point PROVEN!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:49 pm

Seriously??? Your dissertation isn't on the mark and you would be wise to do some research before you argue the pros or cons of anything. It only takes one misstatement to hurt your credibility and you've made more than one. The obvious faux pas, wolves, cats etc. eat the stomach contents of their prey first. They do not, it's a myth. If they are consuming a small animal it gets eaten automatically but in a larger prey it is avoided. There are both advantages and disadvantages to feeding either whole foods or kibble. Why argue the point? Everyone has the right to feed their dog how they like. As a moderator you should respect the OP wishes and just list what you feed and keep this thread on track.
frontline Rank: Junior Hunter Posts: 70Joined: 14 Mar 2012, 17:09Location: Please ADD LOCATION

Read ahead, one party says wolves don't eat the stomach of their prey but wolves actually do but only the lining as they try to shake any matter out of the stomach to clean the lining and often distribute the matter all over the ground at the kill site. So they do eat some of the stomach but just not the contents inside. See, we resolved everything with just a little thought and research. WIN WIN for everyone !! Here is a case of one person saying something you agree with while ten or so are telling you they do so you decide to take the one post as proof you are right. And on top of that you had to embellish greatly by telling us they shake the stomach to get the material out of it and spread it around so we can't see it. There is no reason for anyone to go further with this conversation since you are now showing your unwillingness to listen or to show us where you get your ideas from other than searching till you find someone with no credentials to agree with you. And you take it from there. Not one of us that have watched how they eat are trying to mislead you but we also are wasting our time when you don't want to learn. So be it.

Good luck
Ezzy

PS Frontline says I need to leave you alone and get back to keeping this thread on subject. I think he is right so lets all just list what you are feeding.

Diamond High Energy

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:54 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Point PROVEN!!

If you say so...

Pastor Brown · Post by **Pastor Brown** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:56 pm

yeah... I apologize for opening up a can of worms with this question

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:10 pm

Pastor Brown wrote:yeah... I apologize for opening up a can of worms with this question

No harm done Pastor, would be a rather boring forum if everyone agreed all the time, don't you think?

grousetter · Post by **grousetter** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:32 pm

As many dog food choices as there are for human breakfast cereals.

Check out how your dogs food is rated and compares here:
(Removed)

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:46 pm

grousetter wrote:As many dog food choices as there are for human breakfast cereals.

Check out how your dogs food is rated and compares here:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

Now there is a can of worms. :roll:

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:04 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:That's B_H problem he gets his info from the web,books,dr.s every place but real life I have seen it in the wild outdoors.I guess when I see dogs,or coyote eating Rd apples,Cat s--t & guts from killed deer in the field & the rear end of dead animals ate out before the rest of the animals meat I'm seeing things.This is not counting over 40 yrs of feeding & raising numerous dogs,showing & FT plus hunting & the results of feeding kibble.
He is feeding one dog & knows all the answers because he just knows he's right & our REAL LIFE experience means nothing.I use to know more then I know now when I was younger TOO!! :roll:
Vonzepplin not everything needs to be experienced to learn and reading can prepare us for things we might experience. In my opinion all parties are partly right when looking at this argument from another angle. Read ahead, one party says wolves don't eat the stomach of their prey but wolves actually do but only the lining as they try to shake any matter out of the stomach to clean the lining and often distribute the matter all over the ground at the kill site. So they do eat some of the stomach but just not the contents inside. See, we resolved everything with just a little thought and research. WIN WIN for everyone !!

http://www.rawnecessities.co.za/content ... s-stomachs
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Too bad I don't have anything with stomach contents right now so I could set up a few pictures for you. I can tell you though, and this is not some internet speculation, that if I take the contents of the guts of a ruminant animal, spill them on the snow so they make "sno-cones" that the coyotes coming in the yard will eat them up completely. I can also tell you that if I make son-cones of gut juice and son-cones of blood there is a significant difference in the time it takes for the coyotes to show up and eat them - the gut juice cones will be cleaned up the first night as a general rule, the blood cones will sit till some coyote comes by on a happenstance. I know what conclusions I will be drawing from this experience and your opinion columns.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:03 pm

grousetter wrote:As many dog food choices as there are for human breakfast cereals.

Check out how your dogs food is rated and compares here:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

Please!! :roll:

frontline · Post by **frontline** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
And Frontline, I would appreciate if you would show the research or where ever you get your info. If I made a lot of mistakes in my dissertation I will have to admit I have made mistakes before and I have learned how to handle them but before I apologize to you and the world I want some proof that what I have learned is wrong. Then you will get the apology along with my appreciation of you teaching me something new.

Ezzy

The information can be found in this book:Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation by L. David Mech and Luigi Boitani ( http://www.amazon.com/Wolves-Behavior-C ... nservation) Sign in to Amazon and search the book.

Who is L. David Meech? "Lucyan David "Dave" Mech (born January 18, 1937) is an internationally recognized wolf expert, a senior research scientist for the U.S. Department of the Interior's U.S. Geological Survey (since 1970), and an adjunct professor at the University of Minnesota in St. Paul. He has researched wolves since 1958 in places such as Minnesota, Canada, Italy, Alaska, Yellowstone National Park, and on Isle Royale."

This link has a condensed version on how a wolf takes down it's prey and eating behavior: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_food_is_ ... f#slide=70 and might explain what Pastor Brown has witnessed.

Your original statement: "Most all of the meat eaters are always searching for vegetable matter and find it when they make a kill in the digestive system of the animal they killed. That explains why it is eaten first before the meat."

This thread has gone way off topic and I apologize to the OP. My main point though, maybe the moderator needs moderating since Ezzy did extensively take the thread off topic to pick on someone else's preference for feeding despite the OP requesting only a posting of what food everyone feeds. I didn't really notice if Ezzy even answered that question.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:09 pm

Frontline , did you happen to notice the OP was posting as well as several others. Make sure you talk to him and then apologize for all of us discussing something besides the original question.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:13 pm

I've personally seen newborn lamb kills in depredation areas where coyotes have eaten all the contents of the guts including lungs and hearts and not touched any other part of the lamb. I assumed those coyotes were in high condition and were living high on the hog (lamb).

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:40 am

slistoe wrote:Too bad I don't have anything with stomach contents right now so I could set up a few pictures for you. I can tell you though, and this is not some internet speculation, that if I take the contents of the guts of a ruminant animal, spill them on the snow so they make "sno-cones" that the coyotes coming in the yard will eat them up completely. I can also tell you that if I make son-cones of gut juice and son-cones of blood there is a significant difference in the time it takes for the coyotes to show up and eat them - the gut juice cones will be cleaned up the first night as a general rule, the blood cones will sit till some coyote comes by on a happenstance. I know what conclusions I will be drawing from this experience and your opinion columns.

Interesting to say the least! I have found very little information as to weather coyotes differ from wolves as far as eating stomach contents but I do know they tend to eat more vegetable matter then wolves and the DNA is not as close to wolves as a dog. I did find one little piece though that said both wolves and coyotes will roll in stomach contents at kill sites. Just maybe, wolves don't eat it and coyotes do. It's Not that I don't believe you but I wish we could find some sound research to put together with what you have witnessed and put this issue to rest. Lets remember too, I said opinions and advice are free and everyone on this forum seems to have both.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:13 am

Wake me up when spring gets here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Cj

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:12 am

ezzy333 wrote: There is no reason for anyone to go further with this conversation since you are now showing your unwillingness to listen or to show us where you get your ideas from other than searching till you find someone with no credentials to agree with you. And you take it from there. Not one of us that have watched how they eat are trying to mislead you but we also are wasting our time when you don't want to learn. So be it.

On the contrary, I am willing to listen but there are a few on here that are unwilling to believe in research. I think someone who has studied carnivores for more then 30 years should qualify as credible and should at least be considered that. As I said before I am here to learn more about both diets, kibble and raw but it seems that there are no clear cut answers and there are many more pieces missing from the puzzle. Its never a waste of time to hear about what other people have experienced, that's how we all learn...

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:39 am

Meh...BH, you'll probably learn more about raw feeding on a raw feeding message board, or email group. And you'll get comparisons from people who have fed both.

But for the record, I've fed both. Read Billinghurst's book, sought advice online, and gave it a shot. Went RAW/BARF for a year or more and then went back to kibble. I've fed premium, super premium, mid-grade, low-end, grocery store brands, feed store brands, generic mix, you name it. Tried many different kibbles. I can't say that there was a great deal of difference between any. Dogs did fine on everything, some better than others, but hey, eventually you have to pick something that the dogs do well on and is affordable and convenient to purchase.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:02 am

nanney1 wrote:Meh...BH, you'll probably learn more about raw feeding on a raw feeding message board, or email group. And you'll get comparisons from people who have fed both.

But for the record, I've fed both. Read Billinghurst's book, sought advice online, and gave it a shot. Went RAW/BARF for a year or more and then went back to kibble. I've fed premium, super premium, mid-grade, low-end, grocery store brands, feed store brands, generic mix, you name it. Tried many different kibbles. I can't say that there was a great deal of difference between any. Dogs did fine on everything, some better than others, but hey, eventually you have to pick something that the dogs do well on and is affordable and convenient to purchase.

Thanks for sharing this nanny1, Its nice to get a comparison and at least someone who is open to both ideas. I would like to end up eventually using both with maybe 60% raw and 40% good kibble mix. Still trying to sort thru things. Right now I feed about 80% raw and things are good but would like to save on buying the meat as kibble is cheaper. Thanks again!

B_H

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:38 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
nanney1 wrote:Meh...BH, you'll probably learn more about raw feeding on a raw feeding message board, or email group. And you'll get comparisons from people who have fed both.

But for the record, I've fed both. Read Billinghurst's book, sought advice online, and gave it a shot. Went RAW/BARF for a year or more and then went back to kibble. I've fed premium, super premium, mid-grade, low-end, grocery store brands, feed store brands, generic mix, you name it. Tried many different kibbles. I can't say that there was a great deal of difference between any. Dogs did fine on everything, some better than others, but hey, eventually you have to pick something that the dogs do well on and is affordable and convenient to purchase.

Thanks for sharing this nanny1, Its nice to get a comparison and at least someone who is open to both ideas. I would like to end up eventually using both with maybe 60% raw and 40% good kibble mix. Still trying to sort thru things. Right now I feed about 80% raw and things are good but would like to save on buying the meat as kibble is cheaper. Thanks again!

B_H

Are you for real BH? You have been getting real life advice from folks who have "been there, done that" for the entire time. No one has been closed to the idea of feeding RAW - simply telling you that it is not worth the extra time and cost when there is no upside and a some significant potential for downside.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:33 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
nanney1 wrote:Meh...BH, you'll probably learn more about raw feeding on a raw feeding message board, or email group. And you'll get comparisons from people who have fed both.

But for the record, I've fed both. Read Billinghurst's book, sought advice online, and gave it a shot. Went RAW/BARF for a year or more and then went back to kibble. I've fed premium, super premium, mid-grade, low-end, grocery store brands, feed store brands, generic mix, you name it. Tried many different kibbles. I can't say that there was a great deal of difference between any. Dogs did fine on everything, some better than others, but hey, eventually you have to pick something that the dogs do well on and is affordable and convenient to purchase.

Thanks for sharing this nanny1, Its nice to get a comparison and at least someone who is open to both ideas. I would like to end up eventually using both with maybe 60% raw and 40% good kibble mix. Still trying to sort thru things. Right now I feed about 80% raw and things are good but would like to save on buying the meat as kibble is cheaper. Thanks again!

B_H

If this is 80% raw by weight. the raw is about 75% water. The kibble is 5 to 10%. So the Raw Is really only about 30%. When you by raw by the pound 75% of your cost is four water.............Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:38 am

BH, this is the truest thing that has been said here and is the reason I said we are wasting our time since you just don't want to learn even though you very nicely say you do.

Are you for real BH? You have been getting real life advice from folks who have "been there, done that" for the entire time. No one has been closed to the idea of feeding RAW - simply telling you that it is not worth the extra time and cost when there is no upside and a some significant potential for downside.
slistoe GDF Junkie Posts: 3081Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 20:23Location: Please ADD LOCATION

.
As I think about it, I probably read you wrong. I think you want to learn but just can't let go of ideas as well what you have been doing for sometime. Like I said before it is hard and you are the one that has to do it. We can't help you anymore.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:00 pm

slistoe wrote:Are you for real BH? You have been getting real life advice from folks who have "been there, done that" for the entire time. No one has been closed to the idea of feeding RAW - simply telling you that it is not worth the extra time and cost when there is no upside and a some significant potential for downside.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not one person on here has told me that they have fed a dog from puppy hood through out its entire life a raw diet yet you feed me comments like, not worth the time and cost, no upside, some significant potential for downside. Why? Did you try feeding a dog from start to finish a natural raw diet and something went terribly wrong? If so, what? I already know about the cost comparison, its the rest that is unanswered. All I have really been hearing on here is how we have been feeding our kibble for years and years and don't see any reason to change with the exception of a few that add some meat to their kibble diet. You may not be totally against a raw diet but is sure sounds like you wouldn't support it regardless of what the truth might be. I ask a lot of questions because I read the other topics on here and the problems that seem continuous with health seem kibble related. There are two on here now, one with teeth the other with bad breath and stomach issues. That's why I'm not convinced of anything as of yet...

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:58 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
slistoe wrote:Are you for real BH? You have been getting real life advice from folks who have "been there, done that" for the entire time. No one has been closed to the idea of feeding RAW - simply telling you that it is not worth the extra time and cost when there is no upside and a some significant potential for downside.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not one person on here has told me that they have fed a dog from puppy hood through out its entire life a raw diet yet you feed me comments like, not worth the time and cost, no upside, some significant potential for downside. Why? Did you try feeding a dog from start to finish a natural raw diet and something went terribly wrong? If so, what? I already know about the cost comparison, its the rest that is unanswered. All I have really been hearing on here is how we have been feeding our kibble for years and years and don't see any reason to change with the exception of a few that add some meat to their kibble diet. You may not be totally against a raw diet but is sure sounds like you wouldn't support it regardless of what the truth might be. I ask a lot of questions because I read the other topics on here and the problems that seem continuous with health seem kibble related. There are two on here now, one with teeth the other with bad breath and stomach issues. That's why I'm not convinced of anything as of yet...

And all of these same things happen when feeding raw. bad breath and gas are not kibble caused or even related other than feeding too much or some dogs are not digesting everything completely which again usually goes back to too much feed. I have never fed raw from puppiy hood to death but I was involved with feeding trials where we fed sall different things. I will tell you one thing that I know for sure. When you supplement a good kibble the main thing you are accomplishment is to unbalance the ration. A small treat once in a while is find but when you replace half of the feed with meat you just cut the dog short on vitamins and carbs and also upset the amino acid balance. And all of this does not say raw meat is bad even though we know it can cause problems but rather you are changing the balance that the dog food has made a concentrated effort to research and provide with the kibble they produce.

Your call
Ezzy

northUpland · Post by **northUpland** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:28 pm

Bounty_Hounty Not trying to start something here. But very, very curious. Are you feeding a raw premade or your own? If it is your own have you had it sent to have a GA done? I am serious. You seem to be a heavy promoter of raw. I would like to hear back from you either pm or public. I am running feed tests and would like to know what you have found.

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:25 pm

All I can say is that I feed my dogs from puppy until the end with dry kibble. Have switched brands several times due to price fluctuations and availability. Dry kibble works. Find one that works for your dogs and your wallet and stick to it.

To answer the OP's question: Currently 6 of my dogs get Diamond Hi-energy and 3 get Pro-plan shredded or Loyall Active Adult.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:58 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
slistoe wrote:Are you for real BH? You have been getting real life advice from folks who have "been there, done that" for the entire time. No one has been closed to the idea of feeding RAW - simply telling you that it is not worth the extra time and cost when there is no upside and a some significant potential for downside.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not one person on here has told me that they have fed a dog from puppy hood through out its entire life a raw diet yet you feed me comments like, not worth the time and cost, no upside, some significant potential for downside. Why? Did you try feeding a dog from start to finish a natural raw diet and something went terribly wrong? If so, what? I already know about the cost comparison, its the rest that is unanswered. All I have really been hearing on here is how we have been feeding our kibble for years and years and don't see any reason to change with the exception of a few that add some meat to their kibble diet. You may not be totally against a raw diet but is sure sounds like you wouldn't support it regardless of what the truth might be. I ask a lot of questions because I read the other topics on here and the problems that seem continuous with health seem kibble related. There are two on here now, one with teeth the other with bad breath and stomach issues. That's why I'm not convinced of anything as of yet...

I operated a fur farm before the antis drove the industry into the ground. I mixed tons of raw feed - strict analysis of ingredients to provide a complete and balanced nutrition for some true carnivores - the kind where there would be no debate as to their status in the food classification. Funny thing about that is there were grain and vegetable products in that diet. Cost was not a consideration - performance was. The only way to make money was to raise healthy, vibrant, long lived animals with high reproductive capacity. The dogs got the same diet - a true carnivore diet (albeit with some grains and vegetables included to maintain the optimum nutritional profile for health, longevity and coat production). When I moved out from the fur farm business the dogs expanded with the new time available. I needed optimum performance from my dogs and I fed many different feeds in carefully monitored feed trials with my dogs looking for something that may give that little bit of a competitive edge. But really, what does any of that matter. You have demonstrated a complete lack of logical thought, a disregard for scientific research, disdain for those with real life experience and a romance with "agendas". I, nor anyone else, has said your dog will automatically be worse off if you feed raw - a well balanced nutritional diet of raw food is essentially the same as a well balanced nutritional diet of kibble so how could they be worse off. What I am, and will tell you, is that the ludicrous, unfounded claims of the miracle benefits of "raw" food are just that. There is no food that will make up for a deficiency in a dog. If you don't have enough dog to get'r'done on the trail grounds, in the show ring or on a week long hunting trip there is nothing any food is going to do for you. If you want your dog to be the best it can be, there are literally dozens of foods than can get'r'done for you.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:07 pm

northUpland wrote:Bounty_Hounty Not trying to start something here. But very, very curious. Are you feeding a raw premade or your own? If it is your own have you had it sent to have a GA done? I am serious. You seem to be a heavy promoter of raw. I would like to hear back from you either pm or public. I am running feed tests and would like to know what you have found.

To be honest its really hard to test what I feed northUpland. I did send a sample to a lab once to be tested but when they opened the box to test it it flew away. I have half a frozen chuck still in the freezer. Would it be possible for a lab to run some tests on that? I could UPS it to you if your interested.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:55 pm

slistoe wrote:I operated a fur farm before the antis drove the industry into the ground. I mixed tons of raw feed - strict analysis of ingredients to provide a complete and balanced nutrition for some true carnivores - the kind where there would be no debate as to their status in the food classification. Funny thing about that is there were grain and vegetable products in that diet. Cost was not a consideration - performance was. The only way to make money was to raise healthy, vibrant, long lived animals with high reproductive capacity. The dogs got the same diet - a true carnivore diet (albeit with some grains and vegetables included to maintain the optimum nutritional profile for health, longevity and coat production). When I moved out from the fur farm business the dogs expanded with the new time available. I needed optimum performance from my dogs and I fed many different feeds in carefully monitored feed trials with my dogs looking for something that may give that little bit of a competitive edge. But really, what does any of that matter. You have demonstrated a complete lack of logical thought, a disregard for scientific research, disdain for those with real life experience and a romance with "agendas". I, nor anyone else, has said your dog will automatically be worse off if you feed raw - a well balanced nutritional diet of raw food is essentially the same as a well balanced nutritional diet of kibble so how could they be worse off. What I am, and will tell you, is that the ludicrous, unfounded claims of the miracle benefits of "raw" food are just that. There is no food that will make up for a deficiency in a dog. If you don't have enough dog to get'r'done on the trail grounds, in the show ring or on a week long hunting trip there is nothing any food is going to do for you. If you want your dog to be the best it can be, there are literally dozens of foods than can get'r'done for you.

I sir have not shown any disregard for scientific research, it is exactly that that I seek. I have not been asking questions about dog food on this thread for nothing. I have been trying to sort out the truth from what is such a controversial issue that still has me and I am sure many others confused. There seem to be many experienced dog owners on here that are very helpful to me and most others and I really do appreciate them taking the time to help those who ask. As I have been following this forum I have been reading many topics concerning health and nutrition and I can go back and find a dozen or more that relate to kibble and health problems. I would think that in some cases Ezzy may be right in that over or under feeding may be to blame but there are other symptoms that are present that have nothing to do with how much a dog is fed. I don't think of kibble as a terrible way to feed a dog, I just like knowing as much as I can when caring for animals I am responsible for. I also have rabbits and they are now 9 years old and are kept outside year round and I go out of my way to feed and care for them also. Yes I feed them some commercial pellets but also a wide variety of natural foods as well. As I said I do feed my dog a small amount of kibble but at this point I am not comfortable feeding a diet of only kibble...

tieflyer · Post by **tieflyer** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:03 am

I'll tell you but….no one knows where i live right?…….Merrick grain free. No ingredients from China. Which is the main reason I like it.

northUpland · Post by **northUpland** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Bounty_Hunter, I was asking a very real and very professional question. You set such a high personal observation of raw nutrition and then you mock and belittle an opportunity to actually compare your findings with unbiased participants in the sporting dog world. I wish you the best of luck. I was hoping for much more from you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:52 pm

We did some of those tests years ago but have no idea if they were ever officially recorded or not but I know the raw diets had a lot of deviancies plus often lacking all of the essentials a dog needed. Most of that is because an individual just does not have the time, equipment, or the money to control it. That is the main downfall of feeding raw. Otherwise it is a great feed but just no good way for a person to get it done properly.

Ezzy

northUpland · Post by **northUpland** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:11 pm

Ezzy, I agree and that is interesting stuff.

I understand that even though today I feed, train, and condition the best ever possible...but... The absolute best EP I ever saw was Thorn when I was a young kid owed by my dad...late 70's who was fed Purina Hi Pro(from day one until his death). That freak would run circles around any dog I have ever known since. Feed and Condition help a great deal...but Genetics is the absolute trump card.

Quality read I came across lately...Very interesting. Mix of protein and carbs even back in 1785!

The Sportsman's dictionary (1785) described the best diet for a dog's health in its article "Dog": In England, care to give dogs particular food dates at least from the late eighteenth century, when A dog is of a very hot nature: he should therefore never be without clean water by him, that he may drink when he is thirsty. Barley meal, the dross of wheatflour, or both mixed together, with broth or skim'd milk, is very proper food. For change, a small quantity of greaves from which the tallow is pressed by the chandlers, mixed with their flour ; or sheep's feet well baked or boiled, are a very good diet, and when you indulge them with flesh it should always be boiled. In the season of hunting your dogs, it is proper to feed them in the evening before, and give them nothing in the morning you take them out, except a little milk. If you stop for your own refreshment in the day, you should also refresh your dogs with a little milk and bread.[6]

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:59 pm

northUpland wrote:Bounty_Hunter, I was asking a very real and very professional question. You set such a high personal observation of raw nutrition and then you mock and belittle an opportunity to actually compare your findings with unbiased participants in the sporting dog world. I wish you the best of luck. I was hoping for much more from you.

You are right nU, and you have my apology as it was rather small of me to brush you off that way. Its just that since I feed such a wide variety of raw foods that I really thought you were looking for just the bad in how I feed. I am willing to answer any questions you have and I hope you will allow me to join in if interested in future posts. I would rather finish your original question in a PM. if you are still interested?

Thanks,
B_H

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:27 pm

I really hate it when people think they need to PM where no one else can learn anything. Not what we are about

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I really hate it when people think they need to PM where no one else can learn anything. Not what we are about

AMEN!!

Charlie

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:56 am

I feed both, dogs do alright on either or

coprice working dog.jpg

huntclub,rooframes,reloading 002.jpg

Roo #53 Greys 001.jpg

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:59 am

don't you think, this threads getting a bit like this

one tree.jpg

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:08 am

tasi devil wrote:don't you think, this threads getting a bit like this

No, that actually looks a bit more painful, especially to the dogs at the end of the line.

Nice looking batch of meat though. Are those roos all for dog food or do you eat some too?

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:53 pm

tasi devil wrote:don't you think, this threads getting a bit like this

one tree.jpg

Hilarious!

ozrider81 · Post by **ozrider81** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:33 am

i'm little different with my brittany he gets a mix of dry food raw meats either beef lamb or kangaroo some left over veges i put a little milk in morning feeds, only had brittany for 4 weeks so far he thriving on this he health happy puppy.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:16 am

ezzy333 wrote:We did some of those tests years ago but have no idea if they were ever officially recorded or not but I know the raw diets had a lot of deviancies plus often lacking all of the essentials a dog needed. Most of that is because an individual just does not have the time, equipment, or the money to control it. That is the main downfall of feeding raw. Otherwise it is a great feed but just no good way for a person to get it done properly.

Ezzy

northUpland wrote:Ezzy, I agree and that is interesting stuff.

What is it that you agree with nU, is it that you think raw diets have a lot of deficiencies in them or that most people just don't have the time, equipment and money to do it right? What do you think about pre made raw dog food that people buy?

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:28 pm

I checked the websites of five or six makers of raw frozen dog foods, and every one of them includes various additives to whatever meat source and fruit/vegetable mixture they have. Additives include, probiotics, prebiotics, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, amino acids, ground bone, and more. Since FDA has certain requirements for nutritional value in pet feeds, I would think those ingredients are added for a reason other than to make the foods yummy; more likely they're there to fill voids in nutrition of just raw meat and a handful of fruits and vegetables.

So how is a regular Joe Dogowner supposed to know which and how much of these supplements are needed for optimum health? And how is it economically feasible to purchase them?

One brand of frozen raw I looked at costs over $17 for only 7 1/2 ounces of product

And that's their cheap chicken stuff! Other protein sources go up to about $25 for 7 1/2 ounces.

Yikes!