What do you feed your Dogs?

[Bounty_Hunter]

I checked the websites of five or six makers of raw frozen dog foods, and every one of them includes various additives to whatever meat source and fruit/vegetable mixture they have. Additives include, probiotics, prebiotics, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, amino acids, ground bone, and more. Since FDA has certain requirements for nutritional value in pet feeds, I would think those ingredients are added for a reason other than to make the foods yummy; more likely they're there to fill voids in nutrition of just raw meat and a handful of fruits and vegetables.

So how is a regular Joe Dogowner supposed to know which and how much of these supplements are needed for optimum health? And how is it economically feasible to purchase them?

One brand of frozen raw I looked at costs over $17 for only 7 1/2 ounces of product And that's their cheap chicken stuff! Other protein sources go up to about $25 for 7 1/2 ounces.

Yikes!

Not sure I follow all of this. From what I have read the pet food industry is more or less unregulated. I say this because if you follow the chain of command it looks like several organizations together set standards for ingredients but no one really has the authority to enforce them. Since the AAFCO is in charge of establishing the rules for what needs to be displayed on dog food nutrition labels and how it must be displayed you would think they would be the nutrition police yet since they are not a government agency they have no regulatory authority to enforce anything. The CVM is the branch of the FDA that regulates animal drugs, medicated feeds and food additives along with feed ingredients but they have no say in the sources of actual ingredients for proteins and fats and they do not regularly test to make sure it is safe and healthy dog food. Maybe I don't fully understand dog food labels but I thought that most of the ingredients listed are guaranteed to be there in at least minimum amounts meaning there is at least X amount of crude protein and X amount of crude fat along with other percentages of vitamins and minerals in the food you are buying. If that's true it doesn't really tell me how much protein or fat is really in the food I am buying, does it, only that there is at least a minimal amount of some of the ingredients in the food, so that would kind of put someone feeding commercial bought food in the same circle as Joe the regular dog owner. What are your thoughts on this? You already know where I stand but there are lots of pieces to the puzzle missing so try and clarify it please..

[Grousehunter123]

Many years ago I started feeding Schutzhund dogs raw diets from puppy all the way with zero issues. It involved more than just raw meat and bones though. But it did not involve any commercial dog food. I have also fed my setters the same raw diet without commercial food with zero issues.

Once I found Dr. Tim's "Momentum" product (which ain't cheap) I decided to use both raw and Dr. Tim's and have zero issues. I also will use "Elements" supplements during hunting season as I hunt 4-5 days a week.

[shags]

B_H,

FDA website has information you're looking for.

It's not hard to read a label.

KISS. Don't overthink it. You're never going to get a definitive answer on which diet is optimal for everyone.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Many years ago I started feeding Schutzhund dogs raw diets from puppy all the way with zero issues. It involved more than just raw meat and bones though. But it did not involve any commercial dog food. I have also fed my setters the same raw diet without commercial food with zero issues.

Once I found Dr. Tim's "Momentum" product (which ain't cheap) I decided to use both raw and Dr. Tim's and have zero issues. I also will use "Elements" supplements during hunting season as I hunt 4-5 days a week.

Thanks for this input. How would you compare the energy levels using each method ? I only ask this because some do question energy levels when you mention feeding raw. I feed mostly raw and my dog always has plenty of energy with some to spare.

[ezzy333]

I checked the websites of five or six makers of raw frozen dog foods, and every one of them includes various additives to whatever meat source and fruit/vegetable mixture they have. Additives include, probiotics, prebiotics, vitamins, minerals, enzymes, amino acids, ground bone, and more. Since FDA has certain requirements for nutritional value in pet feeds, I would think those ingredients are added for a reason other than to make the foods yummy; more likely they're there to fill voids in nutrition of just raw meat and a handful of fruits and vegetables.

So how is a regular Joe Dogowner supposed to know which and how much of these supplements are needed for optimum health? And how is it economically feasible to purchase them?

One brand of frozen raw I looked at costs over $17 for only 7 1/2 ounces of product And that's their cheap chicken stuff! Other protein sources go up to about $25 for 7 1/2 ounces.

Yikes!

Not sure I follow all of this. From what I have read the pet food industry is more or less unregulated. I say this because if you follow the chain of command it looks like several organizations together set standards for ingredients but no one really has the authority to enforce them. Since the AAFCO is in charge of establishing the rules for what needs to be displayed on dog food nutrition labels and how it must be displayed you would think they would be the nutrition police yet since they are not a government agency they have no regulatory authority to enforce anything. The CVM is the branch of the FDA that regulates animal drugs, medicated feeds and food additives along with feed ingredients but they have no say in the sources of actual ingredients for proteins and fats and they do not regularly test to make sure it is safe and healthy dog food. Maybe I don't fully understand dog food labels but I thought that most of the ingredients listed are guaranteed to be there in at least minimum amounts meaning there is at least X amount of crude protein and X amount of crude fat along with other percentages of vitamins and minerals in the food you are buying. If that's true it doesn't really tell me how much protein or fat is really in the food I am buying does it, only that there is at least a minimal amount of some of the ingredients in the food, so that would kind of put someone feeding commercial bought food in the same circle as Joe the regular dog owner. What are your thoughts on this? You already know where I stand but there are lots of pieces to the puzzle missing so try and clarify it please..

Oh where to start. You really do not have any understanding of the dog food or any other feed manufacturing process. AAFCO is a broad based body of feed manufacturing personnel who are involved in research nutritionally of what an animal must have to be healthy. The ingredients all have to meet the nutritional level that has been established for them and they all are produced in plants that are inspected and the products are tested by FDA. These are the same inspectors that inspect your human food facilities as well as the drug manufacturers and the hospitals and other facilities that use or disperse them. They also are tested by the state as well as the manufacturing company. There is little room for error in the process. When you see a guarantee on a bag or where ever it tell you how much is in the product, not less and not more, unless it stipulates not less than or not more than. You see that with certain minerals normally but not with the protein or fat content. Those have a slight margin of error on both sides of the stated percent or quantity it is very slight. Same procedure with the weight of the bags, there is an allowable variance per bag but ten bags have to weight at least as much as 10 X the stated weight. Labels are also tightly controlled and must follow a certain format as well as accurately tell you what is in the feed. All of this is also checked FDA and/or by the state on a regular basis. Besides all of this you must have a record keeping program that insures the critical ingredients used during the day have been used in the proper amount and the records also have to show all of the ingredients used in each batch of feed. In other words I can assure you that all feed is formulated and that formula has been followed for each batch of feed produced. The records will also show that the equipment has been cleaned to the necessary level between different products and the feeds will be tested to prove there was no unsafe carry over from one product to another. It has over the years become a very labor intensive process to make any animal feed which is a significant part of the cost of the products.

The above procedures that have been deemed necessary to manufacturing a nutritionally adequate as well as safe feed for your animals is exactly why I have said no individual can make a feed whether raw or kibble that will be a nutritionally equal product. When you add raw meat or anything else to the kibble that is good for the animal, you also cause the feed to be overloaded in some areas but to be lacking in other essential area because you have completely unbalanced the ration. Plus you have no idea what the real makeup is of what you are adding. How much protein, fat, phosphate, and calcium have you added and how much lower is the amount of other minerals and vitamins if you feed chicken backs on certain days? Same if you add venison today, pork, beef, or table scraps? Each will be different and you do not have the capability of know what those levels will be. If a company made a feed like you are when you feed these other ingredients they would be out of business in a week and each of us would be glad to see it happen since every bag you bought would be different in appearance, in quality, and stability.

[Grousehunter123]

Many years ago I started feeding Schutzhund dogs raw diets from puppy all the way with zero issues. It involved more than just raw meat and bones though. But it did not involve any commercial dog food. I have also fed my setters the same raw diet without commercial food with zero issues.

Once I found Dr. Tim's "Momentum" product (which ain't cheap) I decided to use both raw and Dr. Tim's and have zero issues. I also will use "Elements" supplements during hunting season as I hunt 4-5 days a week.

Thanks for this input. How would you compare the energy levels using each method ? I only ask this because some do question energy levels when you mention feeding raw. I feed mostly raw and my dog always has plenty of energy with some to spare.

All things considered equal (conditioning etc...) I have no doubt the energy levels do not suffer at all compared to an all commercial diet from my experience. The thing I noticed the most in raw and or raw/Dr. Tim's was my dogs aren't all stiff and sore the next day. Even after 3-4 days in a row. I hunt mine in the mornings, breaks as I drive to different covers and then evenings. Average 5 hours per day on the hoof. Their recovery is excellent and they never refuse to eat raw no matter how tired they are. The snow White teeth are nice too.

[Country Guy2]

I very much like feeding raw, my dogs have plenty of energy when I feed them. Raw gives dogs the nutrition that they need to stay healthy and active. I don't understand why many people are against feeding raw. What do you think they ate back then? Do you think their owner bought a bag of dog food for them?

[Bounty_Hunter]

Oh where to start. You really do not have any understanding of the dog food or any other feed manufacturing process. AAFCO is a broad based body of feed manufacturing personnel who are involved in research nutritionally of what an animal must have to be healthy. The ingredients all have to meet the nutritional level that has been established for them and they all are produced in plants that are inspected and the products are tested by FDA. These are the same inspectors that inspect your human food facilities as well as the drug manufacturers and the hospitals and other facilities that use or disperse them. They also are tested by the state as well as the manufacturing company. There is little room for error in the process. When you see a guarantee on a bag or where ever it tell you how much is in the product, not less and not more, unless it stipulates not less than or not more than. You see that with certain minerals normally but not with the protein or fat content. Those have a slight margin of error on both sides of the stated percent or quantity it is very slight. Same procedure with the weight of the bags, there is an allowable variance per bag but ten bags have to weight at least as much as 10 X the stated weight. Labels are also tightly controlled and must follow a certain format as well as accurately tell you what is in the feed. All of this is also checked FDA and/or by the state on a regular basis. Besides all of this you must have a record keeping program that insures the critical ingredients used during the day have been used in the proper amount and the records also have to show all of the ingredients used in each batch of feed. In other words I can assure you that all feed is formulated and that formula has been followed for each batch of feed produced. The records will also show that the equipment has been cleaned to the necessary level between different products and the feeds will be tested to prove there was no unsafe carry over from one product to another. It has over the years become a very labor intensive process to make any animal feed which is a significant part of the cost of the products. The above procedures that have been deemed necessary to manufacturing a nutritionally adequate as well as safe feed for your animals is exactly why I have said no individual can make a feed whether raw or kibble that will be a nutritionally equal product. When you add raw meat or anything else to the kibble that is good for the animal, you also cause the feed to be overloaded in some areas but to be lacking in other essential area because you have completely unbalanced the ration. Plus you have no idea what the real makeup is of what you are adding. How much protein, fat, phosphate, and calcium have you added and how much lower is the amount of other minerals and vitamins if you feed chicken backs on certain days? Same if you add venison today, pork, beef, or table scraps? Each will be different and you do not have the capability of know what those levels will be. If a company made a feed like you are when you feed these other ingredients they would be out of business in a week and each of us would be glad to see it happen since every bag you bought would be different in appearance, in quality, and stability.

Now your not being completely fair, I know you are an alumni of the feed manufacturing industry and you have knowledge of the regulation process but I think you are a little out of line when you say things like, "no one can make feed for their dog that is nutritionally equal to what the feed industry can". I agree that I cant test what I feed the way the feed industry can because I don't feed dry processed food but you are too entrenched in this complete balance thought process. I agree a dog does need certain nutrients to be healthy and live long but I don't believe that it means he needs a perfectly balanced meal every day. What is that anyway? We as humans are classified as omnivores, so do we know what our fat, protein and vitamin intake is on a daily basis, I don't. How about anyone on this forum, do they know exactly what their fat and protein intake was for this week? I would doubt it. Yet I would think no one is suffering from malnutrition or serious deficiencies of any kind so why would we need to worry so much about complete balance? If a raw feeder feeds a variety of foods that are appropriate for a dog with regard to a fair amount of research I believe the dog would receive an equally nutritious diet or better then store bought feed. Those who feed a commercial diet put their faith in the feed industry and that's ok, I choose to put mine in nature because I like those odds better. What happened to the old saying, "Give a dog a bone"....

[ezzy333]

I very much like feeding raw, my dogs have plenty of energy when I feed them. Raw gives dogs the nutrition that they need to stay healthy and active. I don't understand why many people are against feeding raw. What do you think they ate back then? Do you think their owner bought a bag of dog food for them?

Nope, they went an found their own. But they seldom found all of the nutrients they needed and consequently they lived very short lives.

Ezzy

[ezzy333]

What happened to the old saying, "Give a dog a bone"....

It is still around but we also hear it can't be a load bearing bone because they are too hard and the dog will break it's teeth. That must be why most mature wolves have broken teeth an need to see a dentist. And you shouldn't feed the softer bones as the excess calcium will cause constipation. Or too big of a bone will cause problems or cooked bones make splinter and perforate the digestive system some place. So the dog food companies who are untrustworthy decided to grind the bone and mix it with all of the other nutrients the dog needs and sell it to you so you can feed your dog a balanced feed everyday rather than too much one day and not enough the next day. But we can get by doing that since our dogs spend most of their time laying around sleeping and occasionally going for a trip where they get to run around a little at their own speed so the owners can all say their dog has a lot of energy and stamina. And all is well on the home front.

You do know or maybe you don't that Mother Nature does not provide everything an animal needs. Animals have to spend the greatest part of their lives just trying to find enough food to survive. Healthy is a completely different subject.

Ezzy

[nanney1]

I've also got a visiting stud dog in for the week. He is fed Nutro Natural Choice Chicken, Rice and Oatmeal formula. This guy looks good for an older dog (eight).

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I have a Solid Lvr GSP that will be 14 in June I need to get a recent pic of he looks & acts like a 7 or 8 yr old dog.Over the years he has eaten more different brands then I could remember but now is eating The Pride Pro Blend 26/20 & Puppy Blend 30/20 mixed half & half.People don't believe me when I tell how old he is.

[slistoe]

I have a Solid Lvr GSP that will be 14 in June I need to get a recent pic of he looks & acts like a 7 or 8 yr old dog.Over the years he has eaten more different brands then I could remember but now is eating The Pride Pro Blend 26/20 & Puppy Blend 30/20 mixed half & half.People don't believe me when I tell how old he is.

Pshaw.... 14 is nothing. These RAW feeders have been telling us that 20 years and going strong is almost guaranteed.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Yeah makes them immortal like a vampire drinking blood.The truth of the matter I believe it's in the Genes this line of dogs I have live long healthy lives & are very seldom sick.
His sire was a 3 months passed 13 when he died & his mother was 2 months over 15 when she passed but neither of them looked as good as he does in their old age.

[Bounty_Hunter]

I should probably check my Gunniss book on kibble fed dogs because you might be setting some records here! As for raw you have another 10 years to go...

[Frankug]

Just FYI. I shot a deer one night and was unable to find it. Lots of coyotes where i live, no wolves. Went back the next morning and the coyotes had found the deer and had eaten the whole thing. Nothing left but hide and skeleton. I was so impressed had others come and take a look. I don't know where they started but could see where they ended. I have switched dog foods a bunch. When i had extra venison available, I would feed that plus kibble, dogs loved it. Gave venison to whelping mothers they loved it too. My vet recommended cooking it first. So I did. I am a man that hates waste. So if their was waste around i would generally feed it to the dogs. That comes with drawbacks though. I cooked a pig one night and gave the bones and scraps to the dogs. bout killed one of the dogs, too much fat or something the vet said. Not doing that anymore. I am always pushing and pulling at how to feed my dogs. I have fourteen at the moment but expecting two litters over the summer and will probably bump it back up next year. So i have switched now to something different. I have just started Dr. Tims $$ and giving my dogs some bones for cleaner teeth. I am looking for Consistency and convenience along with quality. I am also looking at budgetary issues. I do not operate a kennel for profit but have dogs just cause i love dogs and hunting with them. My present theory is feed high quality (Dr. Tims) which cost more but in theory you can feed less. I want high performance in the running season, then a more kennel type food in the off season. If i produced a carcass of some sort every couple of days i would have zero problem feeding it too my dogs if i knew 100% consistency. I would want to know nutritional content. That would be tough. Pretty inconvenient too. I have always heard that you will either spend money on the good dog food or spend it at the vets office.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

All I will say is I feed The Pride Pro Blend 26/20 $24 50 LB bag Puppy Blend 30/20 $26 I have used all the major brands cheap & mid range never saw much difference.My dogs perform at the highest level GSP F Trials.
Draw your own conclusions.

[ezzy333]

All I will say is I feed The Pride Pro Blend 26/20 $24 50 LB bag Puppy Blend 30/20 $26 I have used all the major brands cheap & mid range never saw much difference.My dogs perform at the highest level GSP F Trials.
Draw your own conclusions.

It has been pretty well tested and you just won't see much if any difference in energy or condition with the different feeds, especially in the short run. All of us are feeding twice the protein and fat we used to just a few years ago and the dogs did fine back then. Our dogs just do not work hard enough for any differences to show up.

Ezzy

[shags]

I don't know about that...my dogs seem to be doing better on the higher fat/higher protein feeds. They are much easier to keep in great shape and condition and to me they look better as to coat and skin. I especially see a difference in the old dogs. Times past, my dogs would begin to look older at around age seven; they just seemed to begin dropping off in condition, coats thinned, their nails would start to get dry and scaly, etc. This batch of dogs on the higher f/p feeds are doing so much better; I have two older than 12 years and a 10 year old who all appear years younger with few signs of aging other that a little graying on the face and a little cloudiness in the eyes.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Just FYI. I shot a deer one night and was unable to find it. Lots of coyotes where i live, no wolves. Went back the next morning and the coyotes had found the deer and had eaten the whole thing. Nothing left but hide and skeleton. I was so impressed had others come and take a look. I don't know where they started but could see where they ended. I have switched dog foods a bunch. When i had extra venison available, I would feed that plus kibble, dogs loved it. Gave venison to whelping mothers they loved it too. My vet recommended cooking it first. So I did. I am a man that hates waste. So if their was waste around i would generally feed it to the dogs. That comes with drawbacks though. I cooked a pig one night and gave the bones and scraps to the dogs. bout killed one of the dogs, too much fat or something the vet said. Not doing that anymore. I am always pushing and pulling at how to feed my dogs. I have fourteen at the moment but expecting two litters over the summer and will probably bump it back up next year. So i have switched now to something different. I have just started Dr. Tims $$ and giving my dogs some bones for cleaner teeth. I am looking for Consistency and convenience along with quality. I am also looking at budgetary issues. I do not operate a kennel for profit but have dogs just cause i love dogs and hunting with them. My present theory is feed high quality (Dr. Tims) which cost more but in theory you can feed less. I want high performance in the running season, then a more kennel type food in the off season. If i produced a carcass of some sort every couple of days i would have zero problem feeding it too my dogs if i knew 100% consistency. I would want to know nutritional content. That would be tough. Pretty inconvenient too. I have always heard that you will either spend money on the good dog food or spend it at the vets office.

I also feed venison when I have it and my dog does really good on it, I don't cook anything though but I do freeze most wild game before feeding it. The only cooked meat I feed comes from table scraps the family doesn't eat. If you have a big freezer I would look for fresh road kill deer and make use of them as trying to buy meat for that many dogs would be expensive. I don't have much experience with dry dog foods because I feed mostly raw but (Dr. Tims) products seem to get lots of support and the mention of good results. I and some others on here feed raw diets as mentioned and agree there is no lack of energy and lots of added benefits. Speaking for my self of course I have only seen the vet for puppy shots and rabies shot every 3 years and I may try to extend that. I think you will spend much less at the vet if you do a little research on what a good raw diet can do for your dogs.

[Mountaineer]

... Speaking for my self of course I have only seen the vet for puppy shots and rabies shot every 3 years and I may try to extend that. I think you will spend much less at the vet if you do a little research on what a good raw diet can do for your dogs.

Speaking for your pup, as someone certainly should, I would consider a Bordetella shot.
Getting around an infected dog(farm, stray, birddog, whatever) or where they have been will find that infection easily spread.
If, you never hunt or never traipse where other dogs are, then perhaps you can consider any money saved on a vet visit to trump the pup's odds...good dog owners do not, imo.
While Vets do vary in ability, et al... finding one and establishing respect and so trust, is a plus for any dog and dog owner down the line....avoiding a Vet is fool's play and perhaps says the most about how and so what an individual thinks....kinda sad for the pup in some cases.
Re that shot, while it is good for a year, I tend to believe that the oomph in protection decreases and, for a hunter, tend to reckon it better given in the summer....each to their own though.
Actually, I would be remiss in not mentioning the lunacy of avoiding vet visits, in general...especially in the sad need to further some feeding agenda.

[Bounty_Hunter]

Speaking for your pup, as someone certainly should, I would consider a Bordetella shot.Getting around an infected dog(farm, stray, birddog, whatever) or where they have been will find that infection easily spread.If, you never hunt or never traipse where other dogs are, then perhaps you can consider any money saved on a vet visit to trump the pup's odds...good dog owners do not, imo.While Vets do vary in ability, et al... finding one and establishing respect and so trust, is a plus for any dog and dog owner down the line....avoiding a Vet is fool's play and perhaps says the most about how and so what an individual thinks....kinda sad for the pup in some cases. Re that shot, while it is good for a year, I tend to believe that the oomph in protection decreases and, for a hunter, tend to reckon it better given in the summer....each to their own though.Actually, I would be remiss in not mentioning the lunacy of avoiding vet visits, in general...especially in the sad need to further some feeding agenda.

Gee, you make it sound like I hate vets. If that were the truth why would I have gotten him any shots at all since the only one required by law in my state is rabies? I think some vets have a wealth of knowledge to offer dog owners. I also think there are some that see $ signs with every minor problem a pet owner wishes to address.
As far as shots go I am on board with some but there is also a lot of controversy about possible side effects and a lot of problems associated with some. I would think fools play would be more associated with those who put all of their trust in their vet, their commercial kibble and on line forums like this one. Thanks for your opinions but I will continue to use all avenues to care for my dog. So now that you have made me feel guilty maybe I will call the vet this week and make an appointment since he is due for his rabies shot. Or maybe I will wait till spring ...

[Mountaineer]

...Gee, you make it sound like I hate vets. If that were the truth why would I have gotten him any shots at all since the only one required by law in my state is rabies? I think some vets have a wealth of knowledge to offer dog owners. I also think there are some that see $ signs with every minor problem a pet owner wishes to address.
As far as shots go I am on board with some but there is also a lot of controversy about possible side effects and a lot of problems associated with some. I would think fools play would be more associated with those who put all of their trust in their vet, their commercial kibble and on line forums like this one. Thanks for your opinions but I will continue to use all avenues to care for my dog. So now that you have made me feel guilty maybe I will call the vet this week and make an appointment since he is due for his rabies shot. Or maybe I will wait till spring ...

Maybe...but I expect the pup will ultimately remain second to the promotion of your personal feeding decisions...or, agenda.

No, I don't think you hate Vets.
I expect that you simply lack the knowledge and experience to allow the wisest decisions to be made re threats to your pup's most immediate health...i.e. vaccinations... to trump that agenda.
I am glad to help your pup by bringing the needed consideration of a bordetella vaccination to your attention.

[Bounty_Hunter]

So this winter doesn't want to quit. How are all of you dealing with it? I wont even exercise my dog this weekend, how can I, when he tries to make it through the field he is up to his neck in snow with 20+ inches of snow on the ground and drifts twice that deep. Temps will also be in the teens tonight. It makes me think about the statements made on longevity of our wild carnivores. So much for demoralizing the quality of what they eat, if not for the important nutrition in what they do eat they could never make it through the challenges like they are facing right now. Some probably wont. Mother nature sometimes deals a bad hand...

[Bounty_Hunter]

Maybe...but I expect the pup will ultimately remain second to the promotion of your personal feeding decisions...or, agenda. No, I don't think you hate Vets.I expect that you simply lack the knowledge and experience to allow the wisest decisions to be made re threats to your pup's most immediate health...i.e. vaccinations... to trump that agenda.I am glad to help your pup by bringing the needed consideration of a bordetella vaccination to your attention.

Not so, My pup comes first that's why I have gone out of my way to feed him and find out what would keep him healthy and alive for as long as I can have him. I also have a friend that is good friends with a vet in my area and he allows me to e-mail him if I have any questions concerning my dog. But I have not been in contact with him for about a year and a half. Just no need. Thanks for your concern though.

[shags]

Me and my kibble-fed, regularly-vetted dogs are handling this winter very well, thanks. The dogs get run off the fourwheeler or horseback every day for at least 40 minutes. We have over a foot of snow where it isn't drifted, and the drifts are at least a couple of feet deep all over the fields; the temps have been between -10* and 16* degrees every morning when we go out for the past six weeks or so. After their run, the dogs mess outside around while I take care of the barn and horses for another hour or so. After that, we do general outdoor stuff like take clearing woodslots and stuff

I can't remember the last time I took a dog to the vet because he was sick. I think it was when one of them had a broken metatarsal a couple years ago.

Are you as paranoid and suspicious of all businesses as you are of dog food manufacturers and veterinarians? Or are they the only ones out to lie, cheat, and rob you of your money, health, and happiness?

[Mountaineer]

Maybe...but I expect the pup will ultimately remain second to the promotion of your personal feeding decisions...or, agenda. No, I don't think you hate Vets.I expect that you simply lack the knowledge and experience to allow the wisest decisions to be made re threats to your pup's most immediate health...i.e. vaccinations... to trump that agenda.I am glad to help your pup by bringing the needed consideration of a bordetella vaccination to your attention.

Not so, My pup comes first that's why I have gone out of my way to feed him and find out what would keep him healthy and alive for as long as I can have him. I also have a friend that is good friends with a vet in my area and he allows me to e-mail him if I have any questions concerning my dog. But I have not been in contact with him for about a year and a half. Just no need. Thanks for your concern though.

A friend of a friend is nice....not quite the same though as a trusted Vet connection when bad stuff happens to good dogs.
There can be a lag time involved with friends of friends when problems or simple wonder, despite the glories of e-mail, arise that experience rates as less than the best of situations....for the dog.
For the owner, I really don't care overmuch.
Which is why I mentioned the bordetella vaccination...for your dog.

Supporting agendas and endless disagreements over personal decisions are a bit too low shelf for me at a time when a pup may suffer from a profound lack of knowledge and experience or from a profound surfeit of younker ego and short-sightedness.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

B_H where is your dooms day cave I'm sure you have one since you think every body is out to destroy you & your dog.I would really hate to think like you do my neck would ache from looking over my shoulder to see who's sneaking up on me.
As far as this winter it's been tough but all 11 dogs I have here seem to love it,this still doesn't come close to the blizzards of 77 & 78 when I only had 1 dog like your self & we hunted in it a couple days a wk.Your 50 LB Britt should be like a snow plow with all RAW ENERGY!!

[Frankug]

Just FYI. All my dogs are vetted to the 9s. All shots vaccines etc. All administered by a Vet. I know I could do a bunch of them but, I like the professional to do it for record keeping and a yearly once over. I keep a double record of my on. Nice that i have a vet that will do a kennel call. I am a holder of many a conspiracy theory, coined "Captain Paranoia" by some. Vacccines having negative side affects is not a theory that remotely holds water. They are very beneficial and the only side affect i see is they don't get the god forsaken disease you are giving them the shot for. You and your dogs should get all vaccines applicable!

[Bounty_Hunter]

Are you as paranoid and suspicious of all businesses as you are of dog food manufacturers and veterinarians? Or are they the only ones out to lie, cheat, and rob you of your money, health, and happiness?

No, I am easy going and tend to trust everyone. Why would businesses what to take advantage of me? I don't consider my self paranoid of vets or dog food manufactures, its just that I think some people put too much trust in some professionals and tend to believe everything the feed manufactures profess as needed for our pets. By the way there are plenty of vets that support the way I feed my dog. There are also vets that think we are over vaccinating our pets.

[Bounty_Hunter]

B_H where is your dooms day cave I'm sure you have one since you think every body is out to destroy you & your dog.I would really hate to think like you do my neck would ache from looking over my shoulder to see who's sneaking up on me.
As far as this winter it's been tough but all 11 dogs I have here seem to love it,this still doesn't come close to the blizzards of 77 & 78 when I only had 1 dog like your self & we hunted in it a couple days a wk.Your 50 LB Britt should be like a snow plow with all RAW ENERGY!!

That sounds kind of cruel hunting your dog in over 2ft of snow. What were you trying to prove anyway? I'm sure glad I don't think like you. :roll:

[Bounty_Hunter]

Just FYI. All my dogs are vetted to the 9s. All shots vaccines etc. All administered by a Vet. I know I could do a bunch of them but, I like the professional to do it for record keeping and a yearly once over. I keep a double record of my on. Nice that i have a vet that will do a kennel call. I am a holder of many a conspiracy theory, coined "Captain Paranoia" by some. Vacccines having negative side affects is not a theory that remotely holds water. They are very beneficial and the only side affect i see is they don't get the god forsaken disease you are giving them the shot for. You and your dogs should get all vaccines applicable!

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/fi ... -your-dog/

[Bounty_Hunter]

Add another 12" to what's on the ground in this pic. Not my idea of a good day for hunting.

453.JPG

[ezzy333]

Got to remember the dog will love it long after you think it is impossible

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

His testicles aren't even in the snow yet so he is having the time of his life even if you aren't now I understand just how much experience you have.Shall we say zilch so you need to get some off the internet.

[Bounty_Hunter]

I had him out the other day when I took this pic. and after about an hour and a half he developed an ice ball on his right front paw and it made him limp till I got him home. He was fine once I got it off him but I just hate dealing with this snow and how hard it is for him busting the crust to try covering ground. I still see pheasant tracks going in and out of cover and am wondering if those stocked birds can make it to spring?

[Bounty_Hunter]

His testicles aren't even in the snow yet so he is having the time of his life even if you aren't now I understand just how much experience you have.Shall we say zilch so you need to get some more BS off the internet.

That pic was before the last storm hit yesterday, I did say add another foot to what he is standing in in the pic. and I don't know of anyone that hunts their dogs in that kind of dept. Unless your trying to prove something, if so, what?

[Jagerdawg]

The snow is to deep lol for that amazing raw fed dog hard to believe. I wonder if the wolves and coyotes got the memo? I seriously doubt you could pry yourself away from the computer for an hour and a half to run a dog. Any one who wants to learn should be open to the fact they could be wrong disregarding anything that goes against what you WANT to BELIEVE is not wanting to learn in my book. I love the foe list I no longer need to read your thoughts or beliefs

[Bounty_Hunter]

The snow is to deep lol for that amazing raw fed dog hard to believe. I wonder if the wolves and coyotes got the memo? I seriously doubt you could pry yourself away from the computer for an hour and a half to run a dog. Any one who wants to learn should be open to the fact they could be wrong disregarding anything that goes against what you WANT to BELIEVE is not wanting to learn in my book. I love the foe list I no longer need to read your thoughts or beliefs

Well, regardless of what you believe I have learned or not on this forum, there are a few that I do listen too on here and am happy they have shared their knowledge with me. Sorry to say, you aren't one of them. Guys like you and Vonzepplin seem to preoccupied with trying to show how arrogant and sarcastic you can be while trying to prove everyone wrong. I did say there is nearly 2' of snow on the ground. why would I want to be out hunting today? I will ask the coyotes in my area if they are bothered by the deep snow and let you know, that is, the ones that aren't seeking shelter under ground for a short period to get out of this mess. How about sharing something a little more beneficial to the subject so we can learn. Thanks!

B_H

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

B_H you should do the same or quit posting nothing you have said has been beneficial to any one because it's ALL BS!! I proved nothing other then just went hunting & had a very enjoyable time.Birds especially pheasants set better in the snow.
There you learned SOMETHING but can't comprehend it! Oh & I use to walk to school in this kind of snow up hill to & from.GET IT?

[Mountaineer]

Snow is not all equal....all the particulars, rather than the snow depth, are often what would determined hunt-able conditions, or not...assuming a hunting area can be accessed, of course.
Showshoe hare hunters often are out and about in snow that is quite deep during a day.
A crust can indeed be a formula to slip a pad....just depends on, again, many particulars.
I expect the better dog owners will always make the best call when their dogs are involved, or try....the last two words are the important ones.

Many use Mushers Secret for ice balls on paws...I've found it helps, but the characteristics of the snow and temperatures often dictates effectiveness.
However, I'm pretty sure that when one of mine is chewing off an ice ball...they are grinning.
A lot of times, the individual dog determines if ice balls are an issue.....perhaps, because some of the owner's attitudes rub off on them.

[birddogger]

B_H where is your dooms day cave I'm sure you have one since you think every body is out to destroy you & your dog.I would really hate to think like you do my neck would ache from looking over my shoulder to see who's sneaking up on me.
As far as this winter it's been tough but all 11 dogs I have here seem to love it,this still doesn't come close to the blizzards of 77 & 78 when I only had 1 dog like your self & we hunted in it a couple days a wk.Your 50 LB Britt should be like a snow plow with all RAW ENERGY!!

That sounds kind of cruel hunting your dog in over 2ft of snow. What were you trying to prove anyway? I'm sure glad I don't think like you. :roll:

FWIW, when I was younger and the bird numbers were good, I hunted more than once in a foot or more of snow with temps 5 degrees below zero or so. And we hunted all day. It was not cruel to the dogs. They were always chomping at the bit and had no problem with the conditions. We were not out to prove anything, just passionate about our sport and did not want to miss out on a single precious available day of our short season. BTW, some of my best memories and dog stories come from being out in those adverse conditions. Sadly, I doubt that you will ever understand any of this.

Charlie

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Charlie you know I did this when I was younger also It never made a difference in the weather.When I said I was going hunting on such & such day I went no matter if it was 80 with sun or raining,or -8 with a ft or 2 of snow I Went but hunting in 6 inchs of snow or more was my favorite time to go.The blizzard YRs they had the Nat Gaurd clear one RD to the highway & as soon as it was open my brother & I put chains on my van & drove 90 miles to go grouse hunting.

I would give anything if I could still do it but physical problems will no longer allow it but my dogs could do it with no problem & love every minute of it.Dogs love the snow no matter how deep they will romp & roll in it like it's dirt.
God I love those times & the memories & makes me sad because I miss it so.The young guys that love to hunt should not miss a minute they can be out because the day will come when they just can't do it like they once did.
Don't take it for granted because it can end over night & it's not all up to you!!

[birddogger]

Well said.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

Charlie you know I did this when I was younger also It never made a difference in the weather.When I said I was going hunting on such & such day I went no matter if it was 80 with sun or raining,or -8 with a ft or 2 of snow I Went but hunting in 6 inchs of snow or more was my favorite time to go.The blizzard YRs they had the Nat Gaurd clear one RD to the highway & as soon as it was open my brother & I put chains on my van & drove 90 miles to go grouse hunting.

I would give anything if I could still do it but physical problems will no longer allow it but my dogs could do it with no problem & love every minute of it.Dogs love the snow no matter how deep they will romp & roll in it like it's dirt.
God I love those times & the memories & makes me sad because I miss it so.The young guys that love to hunt should not miss a minute they can be out because the day will come when they just can't do it like they once did.
Don't take it for granted because it can end over night & it's not all up to you!!

Have to agree. I remember the year we had 44 inches on the ground and Chip my old Champion dog was pointing birds buried deep in the snow. There were five of us hunting one of those days and it started snowing hard as we were on our way out and the only way we got home was for everyone to get out and help push the front of the vehicle around the corners when we needed to turn. And also the days we hunted rabbits and looked for tracks that would lead to a big drift and we would dig the rabbit out. Some of those short trips were on horseback since the snow was way to deep for our vehicles. Like you Ted, I am afraid my days of doing much in the fields are about over but such wonderful memories that are brought back every time I went to the field with gun on my shoulder, dogs out in front, and my boys at my side. Yep, God provided a lot of great days and wonderful memories here on Planet Earth and they all will go with me where ever life leads from here.

[Frankug]

B_H Good luck with that. No need to pull rank on you, You got your way and I got mine!

[Bounty_Hunter]

I'm not sure if coyotes hunt in packs but you guys sure do. I have many memories of hunting in all kinds of weather, alone, with friends, and even with friends and their dogs, so I say from experience I don't like hunting when I have to trudge through two feet of snow and you guys find fault with that. :roll: I thought hunting was a hobby? I think my 50# Britt will forgive me for missing a few days of hunting. Will hunting in -10 F with two feet of snow on the ground teach me anything I don't already know? Here is some advice, how about sharing what you know about hunting and let the common sense stuff alone...

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Don't seem their is much when can teach you .You ALREADY KNOW IT ALL!!

But here goes any way youngin let's just suppose you save money to go hunting in S or ND one year make all the arrangements & you leave here on a nice sunny day you get there go to bed get up the next morning & have a foot of snow & temps below 0 are you going to stay in the nice cozy little motel room until it's time to come home? Or just suppose you lived out that way are you going to stay in all winter.Your one of those whiney crying little BABIES I've mentioned & give the rest of the young men a BAD NAME!! Common Sense are you kidding me you have been told over & over by numerous members here that things are not as you percieve & read about on the net.You have told all of us old men how experience means nothing but FACTS on the internet does why because the internet says so.

I'm a French Model! :roll:

[ezzy333]

I'm not sure if coyotes hunt in packs but you guys sure do. I have many memories of hunting in all kinds of weather, alone, with friends, and even with friends and their dogs, so I say from experience I don't like hunting when I have to trudge through two feet of snow and you guys find fault with that. :roll: I thought hunting was a hobby? I think my 50# Britt will forgive me for missing a few days of hunting. Will hunting in -10 F with two feet of snow on the ground teach me anything I don't already know? Here is some advice, how about sharing what you know about hunting and let the common sense stuff alone...

I agree with you but where we got in trouble is you used your dogs well being as the excuse and not that you didn't want to. Now it all makes sense.

Good luck.

[Bounty_Hunter]

I agree with you but where we got in trouble is you used your dogs well being as the excuse and not that you didn't want to. Now it all makes sense.Good luck.

Now just a minute, You were the one who told me a while back that dogs just love to hunt and will push themselves to the limit and beyond if you allow it. So what's so wrong with pulling the plug on a hunt when the snow is too deep? I would think that would be the move of an owner that cares more for his dog then his bragging rights?