Team Momentum

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:59 pm

Dr. Tim's dog food team momentum won the 2014 Iditarod for the third year in a row. I've fed this food for over two years and it really is "that good".

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:03 pm

Ho HMMMMMMMMMM :roll:

Grousehunter123 · Post by **Grousehunter123** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:07 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ho HMMMMMMMMMM :roll:

Was the health and nutrition section the wrong area to post a comment about dog food?

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:15 pm

I also feed and like it.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:05 pm

Excellent food and excellent guy....

It costs more but it comes out to a beer or two a month, so its probably better for all that it goes into the dog and not my liver.

edb · Post by **edb** » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:57 pm

Congrats to Dallas Seavey on his 2nd win. While Momentum is a top food he didn't win because of it. Jeff King (Red Paw) had an hour lead and was blown off course only several miles from finish. Aliy Zirkle ( eagle pack) finished 2 minutes behind. So I would say Dallas with some luck won the race not Momemtum. Top 3 all fed quality food.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:32 am

edb wrote:Congrats to Dallas Seavey on his 2nd win. While Momentum is a top food he didn't win because of it. Jeff King (Red Paw) had an hour lead and was blown off course only several miles from finish. Aliy Zirkle ( eagle pack) finished 2 minutes behind. So I would say Dallas with some luck won the race not Momemtum. Top 3 all fed quality food.

Someone can check my facts but I think of the top 5 finishers, 4 are Dr. Tim's teams.

edb · Post by **edb** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:54 am

Someone can check my facts but I think of the top 5 finishers, 4 are Dr. Tim's teams.[/quote]

Are you saying they are feeding kibble other than their sponsor?

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:08 am

MonsterDad wrote:Re: Team Momentum

That is correct 4 of the top 5 feed Momentum. 5 of the top 10 feed Momentum. Nobody feeds Diamond.LOL

Jaggerbush · Post by **Jaggerbush** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:46 pm

I am up in the air with Dr. Tim. I'm not cheap by any means but $75 for a 40lb bag seems to much. Plus I have to purchase it online and pay for shipping. Right now I use Native 3 and TOTW which mixed together are great, separate not so much but its the hassle of buying two different foods that I'm trying to get away from.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:10 pm

Jaggerbush wrote:I am up in the air with Dr. Tim. I'm not cheap by any means but $75 for a 40lb bag seems to much. Plus I have to purchase it online and pay for shipping. Right now I use Native 3 and TOTW which mixed together are great, separate not so much but its the hassle of buying two different foods that I'm trying to get away from.

You are looking at the wrong website. You don't need Momentum, use Pursuit 30/20.

http://www.chewy.com/dog/dr-tims-pursui ... g/dp/37811

$65.99 for 44lbs and shipping is FREE and no sales tax either.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:12 pm

edb wrote:Someone can check my facts but I think of the top 5 finishers, 4 are Dr. Tim's teams.

Are you saying they are feeding kibble other than their sponsor?[/quote]

No, I thought I was clear. Of the top five teams, including the winner, four teams use Dr. Tim's food.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:19 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Excellent food and excellent guy....

It costs more but it comes out to a beer or two a month, so its probably better for all that it goes into the dog and not my liver.

Compared to what I feed, it would be more like two or three cases of beer a month and my liver and dogs are doing very well thank you.

Charlie

northUpland · Post by **northUpland** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm

Congrats to Dallas and his sled team on a nice win....yep. I agree...tons of variables when it comes to playing man games with dogs...some luck, some skill, some knowledge, some will. But I will tend to think...Dr. Tim Hunt is making a great kibble food and he is one dedicated SOB making it happen for performance dogs whether they race, trial, hunt, etc! P.S. Yes, I know sled dogs don't live on just dry kibble only so don't buff up on me please with a response about raw because that is what it is. Congrats again Dallas and Dr. Tim from a fellow Team Momentum member. Well done again!

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:25 pm

northUpland wrote:Congrats to Dallas and his sled team on a nice win....yep. I agree...tons of variables when it comes to playing man games with dogs...some luck, some skill, some knowledge, some will. But I will tend to think...Dr. Tim Hunt is making a great kibble food and he is one dedicated SOB making it happen for performance dogs whether they race, trial, hunt, etc! P.S. Yes, I know sled dogs don't live on just dry kibble only so don't buff up on me please with a response about raw because that is what it is. Congrats again Dallas and Dr. Tim from a fellow Team Momentum member. Well done again!

Appreciate the honesty, and have heard nothing but good about Dr. Tim's kibble.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:45 pm

I am paying 26 for 50 lbs and it did just as good as the "Pursuit" I fed last summer while doing a feeding test. Both were good and performed very well.

Ezzy

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I am paying 26 for 50 lbs and it did just as good as the "Pursuit" I fed last summer while doing a feeding test. Both were good and performed very well.

Ezzy

Hummm, so why the big price difference?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:55 pm

Because people buy it & I guess he's not a BIG CORPORATION so it should be cheaper then huh?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:58 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I am paying 26 for 50 lbs and it did just as good as the "Pursuit" I fed last summer while doing a feeding test. Both were good and performed very well.

Ezzy
Hummm, so why the big price difference?

Most of the difference is due to marketing strategy and volume that is being produced.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:57 pm

I don't pay extra for the marketing. If I did I'd buy proplan or science diet or Eukanuba or pedigree. I pay extra for the calories and quality. (and shipping) Dr. Tim's marketing really didn't catch my eye. I heard about it on another forum, as a recommendation much like this thread. I have yet to run across it marketed without actually searching for it, and the only half way marketing that I didn't search for would be the thread started by him last year. I bought it because I had a dog that I could not get enough calories in without feeding too much volume. It did well for that dog and I started feeding it to others also. I like it. It's worth the cost for my competition dogs and hard keepers but not for my easy keepers and lazy dogs

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:29 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I don't pay extra for the marketing. If I did I'd buy proplan or science diet or Eukanuba or pedigree. I pay extra for the calories and quality. (and shipping) Dr. Tim's marketing really didn't catch my eye. I heard about it on another forum, as a recommendation much like this thread. I have yet to run across it marketed without actually searching for it, and the only half way marketing that I didn't search for would be the thread started by him last year. I bought it because I had a dog that I could not get enough calories in without feeding too much volume. It did well for that dog and I started feeding it to others also. I like it. It's worth the cost for my competition dogs and hard keepers but not for my easy keepers and lazy dogs

When I said marketing that was not a slam but is something every company has within the company. If I am a large company with several mills and lots of capacity as well as a transportation division my strategy would probably be to market more on quantity and cover the whole country. On the other hand if I am just getting started, have limited manufacturing capabilities, I would try to sell at a higher price to make up for my limited capabilities. Either large volume with low markup or low volume with a high markup.

Ezzy

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:36 am

ezzy333 wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:I don't pay extra for the marketing. If I did I'd buy proplan or science diet or Eukanuba or pedigree. I pay extra for the calories and quality. (and shipping) Dr. Tim's marketing really didn't catch my eye. I heard about it on another forum, as a recommendation much like this thread. I have yet to run across it marketed without actually searching for it, and the only half way marketing that I didn't search for would be the thread started by him last year. I bought it because I had a dog that I could not get enough calories in without feeding too much volume. It did well for that dog and I started feeding it to others also. I like it. It's worth the cost for my competition dogs and hard keepers but not for my easy keepers and lazy dogs

When I said marketing that was not a slam but is something every company has within the company. If I am a large company with several mills and lots of capacity as well as a transportation division my strategy would probably be to market more on quantity and cover the whole country. On the other hand if I am just getting started, have limited manufacturing capabilities, I would try to sell at a higher price to make up for my limited capabilities. Either large volume with low markup or low volume with a high markup.

Ezzy

That is part of it but not all of it. The ingredients have a larger impact on the cost. Protein costs the most in the food and if you compare Diamond Hi Energy with 24% to Momentum with 35% naturally Momentum will cost much more to make. Then take vitamins, Diamond uses Chinese vitamins and Dr. Tim's doesn't. All these things add up. I can pretty much guaranty you that the chicken protein used in Diamond is preserved with BHA/BHT and fish meal with ethoxyquin and these commodities are much cheaper than naturally preserved ingredients.

Assuming ingredient costs are the same is not accurate.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:46 am

MonsterDad wrote:That is part of it but not all of it. The ingredients have a larger impact on the cost. Protein costs the most in the food and if you compare Diamond Hi Energy with 24% to Momentum with 35% naturally Momentum will cost much more to make. Then take vitamins, Diamond uses Chinese vitamins and Dr. Tim's doesn't. All these things add up. I can pretty much guaranty you that the chicken protein used in Diamond is preserved with BHA/BHT and fish meal with ethoxyquin and these commodities are much cheaper than naturally preserved ingredients.Assuming ingredient costs are the same is not accurate.

This is kind of confusing. Why not just use those good ingredients in the Diamond and put the little guys out by the curb. I mean if they have more resources all they would need to do is make the same quality and sell it slightly cheaper and the would control the market. Am I off base here?

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:27 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:That is part of it but not all of it. The ingredients have a larger impact on the cost. Protein costs the most in the food and if you compare Diamond Hi Energy with 24% to Momentum with 35% naturally Momentum will cost much more to make. Then take vitamins, Diamond uses Chinese vitamins and Dr. Tim's doesn't. All these things add up. I can pretty much guaranty you that the chicken protein used in Diamond is preserved with BHA/BHT and fish meal with ethoxyquin and these commodities are much cheaper than naturally preserved ingredients.Assuming ingredient costs are the same is not accurate.
This is kind of confusing. Why not just use those good ingredients in the Diamond and put the little guys out by the curb. I mean if they have more resources all they would need to do is make the same quality and sell it slightly cheaper and the would control the market. Am I off base here?

It has allot to do with profit margins. Build it cheap with low cost ingredients and sell it high. Of course it costs more to produce a real premium dog food, both on the ingredients and on the manufacturing process which is cooked slower and therefore takes longer, so that manufacturer is going to charge more.

The sled dog community is the pinnacle of performance dogs, even with feeding a mixture of kibble and cooked meats/fish why is it that NONE of them feed Diamond or Native or any of the other large brand dog foods ?????? The answer is simple.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:43 am

MonsterDad wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
mountaindogs wrote:I don't pay extra for the marketing. If I did I'd buy proplan or science diet or Eukanuba or pedigree. I pay extra for the calories and quality. (and shipping) Dr. Tim's marketing really didn't catch my eye. I heard about it on another forum, as a recommendation much like this thread. I have yet to run across it marketed without actually searching for it, and the only half way marketing that I didn't search for would be the thread started by him last year. I bought it because I had a dog that I could not get enough calories in without feeding too much volume. It did well for that dog and I started feeding it to others also. I like it. It's worth the cost for my competition dogs and hard keepers but not for my easy keepers and lazy dogs

When I said marketing that was not a slam but is something every company has within the company. If I am a large company with several mills and lots of capacity as well as a transportation division my strategy would probably be to market more on quantity and cover the whole country. On the other hand if I am just getting started, have limited manufacturing capabilities, I would try to sell at a higher price to make up for my limited capabilities. Either large volume with low markup or low volume with a high markup.

Ezzy
That is part of it but not all of it. The ingredients have a larger impact on the cost. Protein costs the most in the food and if you compare Diamond Hi Energy with 24% to Momentum with 35% naturally Momentum will cost much more to make. Then take vitamins, Diamond uses Chinese vitamins and Dr. Tim's doesn't. All these things add up. I can pretty much guaranty you that the chicken protein used in Diamond is preserved with BHA/BHT and fish meal with ethoxyquin and these commodities are much cheaper than naturally preserved ingredients.

Assuming ingredient costs are the same is not accurate.

I have no idea where you get those figures from. Will you show us the pricing sheets or invoices that you are quoting from. During the years I bought ingredients we saw much more difference in delivery costs than there was in the actual ingredients. Everyone sold at about the same market price or they couldn't have stayed in business.

Ezzy

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:53 am

Really ????? Then why is there such a variation in the maket price of dog foods ????

It pretty much boils down to about anything else, to build something better it is going to cost more. Be it cars, trucks, houses, or dog food.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:09 am

scott townsend wrote: It has allot to do with profit margins. Build it cheap with low cost ingredients and sell it high. Of course it costs more to produce a real premium dog food, both on the ingredients and on the manufacturing process which is cooked slower and therefore takes longer, so that manufacturer is going to charge more.The sled dog community is the pinnacle of performance dogs, even with feeding a mixture of kibble and cooked meats/fish why is it that NONE of them feed Diamond or Native or any of the other large brand dog foods ?????? The answer is simple.

But if the big manufactures did sell better quality or equal to the best they could still sell it cheaper and make a good profit. Small hardware stores that sell the same quality ladder in their store as say Lowes or Home Depo could never sell it at the price these big stores do. What your basically telling me is one of two things, that the big manufactures are to greedy to go the extra mile or that there are enough dog owners that don't really care or just cant afford top quality ingredients and they keep the big manufactures happy.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:11 am

scott townsend wrote:Really ????? Then why is there such a variation in the maket price of dog foods ????

It pretty much boils down to about anything else, to build something better it is going to cost more. Be it cars, trucks, houses, or dog food.

It doesn't have to be better to sell for more if you can create the image.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:55 am

I would like to make some points:

1. Bob Wehle won many of the Northeast sled dog races with his trial dogs. Because of the pointers speed in light snow years they changed the rules to exclude them.

2. Eukanuba (Iams) sponsored Doug Swingly, who was so impressed with the All-Age nutrition and conditioning, that he visited with the top NC trainers when he was in TN. Told me he learned as much as he taught us.

3. As said, they all supliment with raw fat, for both energy and warmth.

5. Most of the way they are pulling an empty sled. The race is as much about overcoming sleep deprivation as endurance.

6. They are phenomenal dogs and earn respect, but I am not sure they are uncontestedly the top endurance dogs.

7. I find their breeding programs of great interest. It is why they do not have a registery.

Admittedly I have no first hand experience just what I have read and been told.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:12 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
scott townsend wrote: It has allot to do with profit margins. Build it cheap with low cost ingredients and sell it high. Of course it costs more to produce a real premium dog food, both on the ingredients and on the manufacturing process which is cooked slower and therefore takes longer, so that manufacturer is going to charge more.The sled dog community is the pinnacle of performance dogs, even with feeding a mixture of kibble and cooked meats/fish why is it that NONE of them feed Diamond or Native or any of the other large brand dog foods ?????? The answer is simple.
But if the big manufactures did sell better quality or equal to the best they could still sell it cheaper and make a good profit. Small hardware stores that sell the same quality ladder in their store as say Lowes or Home Depo could never sell it at the price these big stores do. What your basically telling me is one of two things, that the big manufactures are to greedy to go the extra mile or that there are enough dog owners that don't really care or just cant afford top quality ingredients and they keep the big manufactures happy.

I really wasn't telling you anything. I gave that up quite a while ago. When one has a closed mind and excuses for everything he thinks, it doesn't leave any room for learning.

What I did say is every company has a marketing plan if they are going to be successful. Also, ingredients, no matter what, are available on the open market. The prices change daily due to supply and demand and also speculation by the brokers and speculators. Every company has buyers that are playing the market all day and buying what they can when they feel the price is right or they have an immediate need. And there are price breaks determined by the volume you contract for. However the delivery price to each facility is different and is set without your input so if you want the ingredient you pay the going price or you don't get it. This all just part of doing business and is not a condemnation of any one or anything. Oh and by the way most all of the ingredients are regulated just like the rest of the feed industry and they have to meet a guaranteed level of the nutrients they carry or they can't be sold as such.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:30 am

another thing to keep in mind is that generally the more of something you buy, the less you have to pay for it per unit. we quit selling ear tags at the vet clinic because Farm and Home could sell them cheaper than we could buy them. I wouls imagine the same thing goes for dog food inputs as well.

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:12 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Bounty_Hunter wrote:
scott townsend wrote: It has allot to do with profit margins. Build it cheap with low cost ingredients and sell it high. Of course it costs more to produce a real premium dog food, both on the ingredients and on the manufacturing process which is cooked slower and therefore takes longer, so that manufacturer is going to charge more.The sled dog community is the pinnacle of performance dogs, even with feeding a mixture of kibble and cooked meats/fish why is it that NONE of them feed Diamond or Native or any of the other large brand dog foods ?????? The answer is simple.
But if the big manufactures did sell better quality or equal to the best they could still sell it cheaper and make a good profit. Small hardware stores that sell the same quality ladder in their store as say Lowes or Home Depo could never sell it at the price these big stores do. What your basically telling me is one of two things, that the big manufactures are to greedy to go the extra mile or that there are enough dog owners that don't really care or just cant afford top quality ingredients and they keep the big manufactures happy.
I really wasn't telling you anything. I gave that up quite a while ago. When one has a closed mind and excuses for everything he thinks, it doesn't leave any room for learning.

What I did say is every company has a marketing plan if they are going to be successful. Also, ingredients, no matter what, are available on the open market. The prices change daily due to supply and demand and also speculation by the brokers and speculators. Every company has buyers that are playing the market all day and buying what they can when they feel the price is right or they have an immediate need. And there are price breaks determined by the volume you contract for. However the delivery price to each facility is different and is set without your input so if you want the ingredient you pay the going price or you don't get it. This all just part of doing business and is not a condemnation of any one or anything. Oh and by the way most all of the ingredients are regulated just like the rest of the feed industry and they have to meet a guaranteed level of the nutrients they carry or they can't be sold as such.

I can agree with most of that statement, I think that is what leads to many of the bigger manufactures quality control issues . Those buyers are buying on the open market. Their job is to get the most for the cheapest price. It may come from Brazil this week and China next week etc.. Instead of working with the same supplier all the time and knowing exactly what quality his products are, because you are using them all the time.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:28 am

ezzy333 wrote:I really wasn't telling you anything. I gave that up quite a while ago. When one has a closed mind and excuses for everything he thinks, it doesn't leave any room for learning.

Good teachers never give up! The problem I am having is that there are many teachers on here and they are all on different pages. I would have more room for learning if they would get on the same page or at least use the same book...

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:05 pm

Find me a fair comparison and I will try the cheaper one too. Momentum is 35% protein and 25% fat. It claims 4630 Kcal/kg.
The closest diamond has is Extreme Athlete. It has 32% protein and 25% fat. It claims to have 4710 kcal/kg This is the exact food I am feeding to the normal keepers this winter. It's doing fine. But not as well as Momentum, but fine.
I missed an order of Momentum and had to switch my 2 onto the diamond. I had to up the food intake a bit but the weight held after that. Coat quality diminished, and stools volume increased but stayed firm. 1 anecdotal comparison. But when I can afford it and when it matters, Momentum gave better results.
I will add another food into the mix. I also fed Victor Grain Free ultra http://www.victorpet.com/#!grain-free-ultra-pro/csj7 It's a 42/22 protein fat and claims to have 3964 kcal/kg I fed this food for nearly 6 months to the hardest keeper. It was holding weight on for the first 3 months but then coat quality started dropping, some skin issues showed up, the dog was drinking lots more water also. Dog also was urinating more. Stool volume and quality was fine the whole time. I switched from this to the Momentum (which is NOT grain free! FYI) and the skin issues cleared in a month with no other treatment, the coat looked better and weight stayed the same on basically the same amount of food. The victor is smaller kibble but less dense than momentum and I do not weight my food. I just measure volume... so that should really not be counted for much.

What do I feed now?Diamond Extreme athlete to the hunters that keep easily. Momentum to the 2 who are most active in training and hunting at this time. and 4health performance to the under a year old dogs and older semi-retired dogs. No one has to agree. No one has to feed like me. Just telling you my own story and take it or leave it.

It's just food.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:00 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I really wasn't telling you anything. I gave that up quite a while ago. When one has a closed mind and excuses for everything he thinks, it doesn't leave any room for learning.
Good teachers never give up! The problem I am having is that there are many teachers on here and they are all on different pages. I would have more room for learning if they would get on the same page or at least use the same book...

On the other hand, most of the students are having little problems learning from the multitude of books and actually feel that it is a positive when you can get to the same place from so many different paths.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:13 pm

I would feed whatever you think is doing the best job for the money. I think way too many people look at the protein level as the end all of quality as well as calories and that is not true. A good animal based protein supplemented with grain and vegetable protein will always help with conditioning problems but just a lot of protein will not. Protein is primarily a base for muscle growth and repair. Fat and carbs are what keep weight and conditioning where you want it. Certain muscles get their energy from fat while others get it more from carbs. And then after the heavy work feed the higher protein to repair the muscle tissue that was damaged. I can keep a dog in good condition with a 10 to 12% protein feed but we need more to help the recovery of heavy exercise and that is where we found the higher protein to have an advantage. And it will take more than a week to see a difference in coat and skin unless you are looking at a completely malnourished starving dog and you may see it sooner.

Sounds like you have got your pups figured out pretty well as far as diet goes.

Ezzy

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:22 pm

Neil wrote:I would like to make some points:

1. Bob Wehle won many of the Northeast sled dog races with his trial dogs. Because of the pointers speed in light snow years they changed the rules to exclude them.

2. Eukanuba (Iams) sponsored Doug Swingly, who was so impressed with the All-Age nutrition and conditioning, that he visited with the top NC trainers when he was in TN. Told me he learned as much as he taught us.

3. As said, they all supliment with raw fat, for both energy and warmth.

5. Most of the way they are pulling an empty sled. The race is as much about overcoming sleep deprivation as endurance.

6. They are phenomenal dogs and earn respect, but I am not sure they are uncontestedly the top endurance dogs.

7. I find their breeding programs of great interest. It is why they do not have a registery.

Admittedly I have no first hand experience just what I have read and been told.

Neil I gotta say that is spot on, which is probably why nobody is disagreeing with you

After years of trying these "sled worthy" feeds I have come to the conclusion: what does my dad feed his beagles? In case some of you might not know, my dad has field trialed beagles for little over 25 years. His dogs can be let go in the morning, and if you can't catch them when you want to pick them up, you have to go back at night to see if they are waiting by the gate. This past fall, one of the dogs that qualified for Nationals got out of the 40 acre enclosure through a hole and was heard driving miles away. She wasn't found until three days later. All of his dogs eat Diamond HE and he has been using diamond for about as long as he has trialed. All the dogs lived long healthy lives too mind you.

My dogs get a little hotter feed from Diamond but on training weekends up north they eat some of his because it's there and its one less thing to pack. No problems with ANYTHING.
That is my perspective......

scott townsend · Post by **scott townsend** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:07 pm

Neil wrote:I would like to make some points:

1. Bob Wehle won many of the Northeast sled dog races with his trial dogs. Because of the pointers speed in light snow years they changed the rules to exclude them.

2. Eukanuba (Iams) sponsored Doug Swingly, who was so impressed with the All-Age nutrition and conditioning, that he visited with the top NC trainers when he was in TN. Told me he learned as much as he taught us.

3. As said, they all supliment with raw fat, for both energy and warmth.

5. Most of the way they are pulling an empty sled. The race is as much about overcoming sleep deprivation as endurance.

6. They are phenomenal dogs and earn respect, but I am not sure they are uncontestedly the top endurance dogs.

7. I find their breeding programs of great interest. It is why they do not have a registery.

Admittedly I have no first hand experience just what I have read and been told.

Neil what little bit of sled dog racing Bob Wehle did was short course sprint racing, not even remotely close to an Iditarod type race.
As far as changing the rules to exclude him, many of todays sprint racing teams are pointer and shorthair crosses, very few run pure breds, allot of that is due to their intolerance to the cold.
You claim the sleds are being pulled empty, not so, maybe in those sprint races but no way in the distance races, look up the rules.
You mention sleep deprivation so you must be referencing the distance races. That is some what of a cheap shot when you allude to the race being won as much from battling sleep as it is due to endurance. Those dogs cover 1100 miles in 9 days with a mandatory 36 hours of rest. With a loaded sled with a musher standing or sitting on it. If those aren't super athletes I don't know what is.
No offence but many of your listed points fall into your claim of what you read or you were told with no first hand experience.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:35 pm

Scottd

And you have first hand knowledge?

I have looked at the rules for the Iderod, althoug it was sometime ago, I recall no mention of what must be on the sled, and it is restricted to Northern type dogs or some such. I have no doubt, that in low snow, mild weather events a team of Miller pointers would tear it up. Other years they would be competitive.

As for sleep deprivation, I was going by what Swingly said, he claimed to have slept less than 4 hours in 24 and that he ran most of the way, except when near the check stations. Now Swingly was a modest fellow, but I don't think he would lie. Perhaps I misremember.

Mainly my point was with all the Animal Right rules, the pointers would be competitive. In Europe the GSPs are favored, and I think in the 70's a team of red setters won.

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:07 am

If Dr Tim sponsored me I wouldn't think his food was high priced either and I would surely extol its virtues.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:31 am

We need to do a urine sample and see how much of the 45%protrien is going down the drain.
I never had a lot of luck with diamond EA But I really like Performance....................CJ

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:33 pm

I'm a sprint musher. A world champion at that and won the world championship with a purebred GSP as my leader. I also work for a winning distance kennel so know a bit about their dogs. There is required equipment so the sleds are never empty in distance racing. They must carry a cooker and enough food for three days. They need booties for all dogs, sleeping bags, snow shoes and vet kit just to name a few. Now they have seats added to the back of their sleds and some also have trailers filled with more gear.

Most mushers sprint or distance supplement with meat and fat. We were the exception. We fed straight dog food. There are a lot of good foods out there that can supply a winning team with the fuel it needs to get to the finish line first. Dr. Tim's is good, but my favorite is a feed developed by Lloyd gilbertson, another musher, called Caribou Creek. Red paw is good,but I thought the stools smelled much worse than with other feeds so even though the dogs did well on it, I stopped feeding it. Annamaet was another good feed. We used to feed nutra nuggets, put out by dimond and it was ok if we also fed meat. Since then they have changed the formula and the results aren't as good.

We have a formula for what goes into a winning dog team. 1/3 breeding, 1/3 feeding, and 1/3 training. Lack in any of those and you won't win, at least not on a regular basis. I imagine the same could be said for hard charging hunting dogs.

The Iditarod is a tough race. Equally as tough is the sprint race of the Fur Rondy. 3 days of 25 miles at 20 mph. It's really hard to get enough dogs for a team to run those speeds for that long. It's why there were 65 teams in Iditarod and only 15 in Rondy. Arleigh Reynolds won Rondy this year feeding Pro plan. Egil Ellis was third feeding Momentum and on the final day he had the fastest time with only 7 dogs compared to some teams with 16. Most those Rondy dogs have GSP in their bloodlines.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:57 am

MonsterDad wrote:$65.99 for 44lbs and shipping is FREE and no sales tax either.

You are paying shipping at $65.99 a bag.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:22 am

Vision wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:$65.99 for 44lbs and shipping is FREE and no sales tax either.

You are paying shipping at $65.99 a bag.[/quote

It is more expensive at my local store. On-line retailers work on much smaller margins and may even deal directly with manufacturers.

Shipping is always an embedded cost but logistics are obviously more efficient with on-line retailers and they get bulk rates from couriers. Sales tax amounts to $4.50 a bag.

So if you buy at your local store you are paying for extra shipping plus sales tax. That is for 44lb by the way. Do the math including gas and sales tax and its not much more expensive than Euk or Pro Plan.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:05 pm

Fun Dog,

Thank you for sharing your expertise, a couple more questions please:

What would you guess the unladen and laden weight of the destance sleds?

Without a registery or pedigree, how can breeding be a 1/3 of the winning?

Why do you suppose they only allow "northern type" dogs in The Ididirod?

Do any of the sprint racers use pointers? Why are GSPs used in Europe? Why was your lead dog a GSP?

Is it the AR groups that are driving down the sposorships and prize money in the Ididirod? Or other factors?

Thanks in advance,

Neil

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:04 pm

Neil

Sled equipment probably weigh 125+ pounds plus the driver who may choose to help by peddling or ski poling. Sprint sleds are about 28 pounds. Prexy runners and wax make them very fast.

There is no registry for the sleddogs but there is a very long pedigree. Any serious musher is going to have a loose leaf folder with pedigrees for all his dogs. When you buy a dog from someone the pedigree goes with the dog. There is also a pedigree book put out each year from dogs that run the North American championship. These are studied religiously. If a dog of a different breed is added they will be entered as the name of the dog and the type. Otherwise they go in as the name of the dog and the breeder. Also year born is often added. Breeding the right combination is very important and dogs are chosen on performance. Also included in the selection would be good eaters ( very important ) good feet, health etc.

The Iditarod insists in northern breed dogs because of the conditions on the race. Years ago a fellow was running poodles, but because they lack a double coat they would sometimes stick to the ice and have to be scraped off. That was unacceptable to everyone. In speed races you go out and run and then the dog can go back in his nice cozy box.

In Europe it was required that you use a registered breed and since the Siberian was so slow they switched to using GSP's or vorster as they call them. I believe that rule has been somewhat rescinded and they do use Alaskan Huskies in the open teams. GSP's are good for about 10 miles and then lose their edge thus seldom seen in an open team. We started adding GSP and some Pointer to the Alaskan Husky when the Europeans came over and started beating us in races. It's not the first time other breeds have been added. Irish setters were popular in the 60's but their feet didn't hold up to the rigors of the trail. I bought my first GSP when I saw how the swedes were doing with them. I got lucky and ended up with a dog that was insane to run. He was a maniac in harness. We bred him several times to some of our best huskies and got some nice pups, but the best are bred down even more.

AR was a problem a number of years ago, but I don't think as much any more. Money is just more tight everywhere.

Hope this answers your questions.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Thank you for taking the time to share, not often we get a National Champion willing to inform us.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:50 pm

Actually it was world champ. I'm more than happy to share what I know about sleddogs and appreciate all you folks have to teach about hunting dogs.