To or Not Too Feed Raw Diet?

Skye · Post by **Skye** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:39 pm

Well the subject line says it all. I am the proud owner of "Skye" a pedigree Weim, and I am wondering if any of you out there feed raw diets? If you do feel free to post your ingredients or how too's here. Or simply pm me with what you think is the best Raw diet...

Thanks

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:50 pm

O.K. start with Ian Billinghurst's "Give Your Dog a Bone" and once you've read it, find a discussion forum or Yahoo group that is devoted to RAW or BARF feeding. They are out there and will be helpful and supportive in helping you feed this type of diet. This isn't a RAW feeding forum, and it's not likely you'll get the response you're looking for. That being said:

I did it for a year or more and fed chicken backs, necks and leg quarters along with turkey necks, some organs, and beef bones. Ground up raw veggies and leftover people food in a food processor. and fed it with the meat. It was no problem with one dog, but a hassle with two and once I had three dogs, I dropped it altogether.

Felt good about it at the time. Felt it was a good idea. Felt it was the best for the dogs. Once I switched back to kibble, I observed no difference in the dogs. I no longer feel that it was the best thing. It was no better or worse. Kibble is convenient, cost effective, and works just as well - in my opnion.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:09 pm

Skye wrote:Well the subject line says it all. I am the proud owner of "Skye" a pedigree Weim, and I am wondering if any of you out there feed raw diets? If you do feel free to post your ingredients or how too's here. Or simply pm me with what you think is the best Raw diet...

Thanks

Processed foods are convenient. Not likely the best for humans or dogs. Here is some good information to read and there are many other good sites that will help you decide what's best for you and your dog. Good Luck!

http://rawfed.com/myths/

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:09 pm

Good post Nanney

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:26 pm

nanney1 wrote:O.K. start with Ian Billinghurst's "Give Your Dog a Bone" and once you've read it, find a discussion forum or Yahoo group that is devoted to RAW or BARF feeding. They are out there and will be helpful and supportive in helping you feed this type of diet. This isn't a RAW feeding forum, and it's not likely you'll get the response you're looking for. That being said:

I did it for a year or more and fed chicken backs, necks and leg quarters along with turkey necks, some organs, and beef bones. Ground up raw veggies and leftover people food in a food processor. and fed it with the meat. It was no problem with one dog, but a hassle with two and once I had three dogs, I dropped it altogether.

Felt good about it at the time. Felt it was a good idea. Felt it was the best for the dogs. Once I switched back to kibble, I observed no difference in the dogs. I no longer feel that it was the best thing. It was no better or worse. Kibble is convenient, cost effective, and works just as well - in my opnion.

Excellent post and right on the money. Scientific studies will back you up.

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:00 pm

Whoa whoa whoa, 4 posts already.......
hang on a minute, wait till I get this up on the big screen,l get the popcorn out and settle into the recliner.

Skye, do yourself a favour and search on this forum previous threads about raw vs kibble.

to address the original question as most know here, I feed a combination of both & have up to four dogs in kennels, depending

now have at it fellow posters.....a couple in particular

......tasi

Skye · Post by **Skye** » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:42 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
Skye wrote:Well the subject line says it all. I am the proud owner of "Skye" a pedigree Weim, and I am wondering if any of you out there feed raw diets? If you do feel free to post your ingredients or how too's here. Or simply pm me with what you think is the best Raw diet...

Thanks
Processed foods are convenient. Not likely the best for humans or dogs. Here is some good information to read and there are many other good sites that will help you decide what's best for you and your dog. Good Luck!

http://rawfed.com/myths/

Will read up when I originally searched "Raw food" I got nothing....Thanks fellas!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 am

Also keep in mind the millions of dogs that do very well on quality kibble and the thousands that perform at the highest levels in the dog world on quality kibble.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:18 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
Skye wrote:Will read up when I originally searched "Raw food" I got nothing....Thanks fellas!
Skye, Just make sure and be careful when considering the source of any scientific information. Big corporations are good at hiding important facts that they don't want you to know, while building on only the positive side of their products. Think about this. If nature made the wolf, then nature also made the wolfs food. No need for a manufacturing plant to get in between something like that. Remember these two words, survive and thrive and which of these two words fits what you want for your dog.

Good point but also remember you have seen very few dogs in this country that are just surviving. That is never a case if the dog is being fed regularly. there might be some years when the conditions are really harsh when our foxes, coyotes, and wolves are just surviving but even those usually are finding enough to eat.

Ezzy

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:05 pm

I have fed mine on Tripe straight from the belly, for 35 years.
It doesn't suit every (Human) !
But this is a good explanation I think?
http://www.aplaceforpaws.com/faqs/produ ... y-dog.html

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:49 pm

Whatever you decide, feed a good kibble for the first 18 months then you can try raw. Best to wait to maturity. I personally think it is too risky for a novice to feed a puppy a raw diet, especially a larger breed like a Weim.

Just avoid cheap kibbles. Fromm and Dr. Tim's are good choices. Also, stay away from high protein grain free kibbles for a puppy unless the calcium and phosphorous are appropriate, many are not.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:59 pm

MonsterDad wrote:Whatever you decide, feed a good kibble for the first 18 months then you can try raw. Best to wait to maturity. I personally think it is too risky for a novice to feed a puppy a raw diet, especially a larger breed like a Weim.

Just avoid cheap kibbles. Fromm and Dr. Tim's are good choices. Also, stay away from high protein grain free kibbles for a puppy unless the calcium and phosphorous are appropriate, many are not.

I fully agree with the first paragraph but have a problem with the last one.

Charlie

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:11 pm

birddogger wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Whatever you decide, feed a good kibble for the first 18 months then you can try raw. Best to wait to maturity. I personally think it is too risky for a novice to feed a puppy a raw diet, especially a larger breed like a Weim.

Just avoid cheap kibbles. Fromm and Dr. Tim's are good choices. Also, stay away from high protein grain free kibbles for a puppy unless the calcium and phosphorous are appropriate, many are not.
I fully agree with the first paragraph but have a problem with the last one.

Charlie

Why? Fromm's food are rather reasonably priced and so is Dr. Tim's ALS 26/16.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:17 pm

Sorry, my bad. I misread it.

Charlie

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:40 am

Skye, One last thing I would like to mention is, that if you decide to feed raw it is indeed better for your dog regardless of what opposition on here you may face but you must be dedicated to doing it right and that will require more work and time then opening a bag and feeding a cup or two of kibble per day. However, the trade off may save you money down the road by keeping your dog very healthy giving him the best chance for a long life.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:09 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:Skye, One last thing I would like to mention is, that if you decide to feed raw it is indeed better for your dog regardless of what opposition on here you may face but you must be dedicated to doing it right and that will require more work and time then opening a bag and feeding a cup or two of kibble per day. However, the trade off may save you money down the road by keeping your dog very healthy giving him the best chance for a long life.

Bounty Hunter, I understand you are on a mission to convince who ever you can that your opinion over rides every feeding test ever done and to do this you must claim a lot of advantages to the dog that are not true, I have no problem with you feeding raw if you prefer, but I do have a problem with you not reporting the facts and making up things so you can claim it is better for the dog. Several of us that have an open mind about it and have actually tried it or have done tests have tried to give you the facts. Not so you would not feed it but so you would stop spreading propaganda that you can not prove no matter how hard you would try. Health and longevity just being two of the items. There are tests that disprove that, papers have been written and peer reviewed on those tests and still you make excuses that you really want to learn but you get confused. I don't think for a minute you are confused, but you are a very closed minded individual who just does not have the courage to ever say I was wrong. Fact is you can say that and still feed however you like, no one cares, but some of us do care when newcomers ask serious questions and you spend so much time trying to mislead and just plain give them erroneous information. Then someone else has to waste their time correcting it so people are not mislead. Facts are the OP can feed how ever he likes after he gets straight forward answers to his questions. It is our duty to give him those facts and not embellish them to the point of just being stupid.

Ezzy

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:34 pm

Does anyone else get tired of the same old BS all the time? Some of you take yourselves way to seriously

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Bounty Hunter, I understand you are on a mission to convince who ever you can that your opinion over rides every feeding test ever done and to do this you must claim a lot of advantages to the dog that are not true, I have no problem with you feeding raw if you prefer, but I do have a problem with you not reporting the facts and making up things so you can claim it is better for the dog. Several of us that have an open mind about it and have actually tried it or have done tests have tried to give you the facts. Not so you would not feed it but so you would stop spreading propaganda that you can not prove no matter how hard you would try. Health and longevity just being two of the items. There are tests that disprove that, papers have been written and peer reviewed on those tests and still you make excuses that you really want to learn but you get confused. I don't think for a minute you are confused, but you are a very closed minded individual who just does not have the courage to ever say I was wrong. Fact is you can say that and still feed however you like, no one cares, but some of us do care when newcomers ask serious questions and you spend so much time trying to mislead and just plain give them erroneous information. Then someone else has to waste their time correcting it so people are not mislead. Facts are the OP can feed how ever he likes after he gets straight forward answers to his questions. It is our duty to give him those facts and not embellish them to the point of just being stupid.Ezzy

No mission Ezzy, just trying to be helpful where I can. My lack of trust for the pet food industry is justified and there is plenty of scientific info out there that proves that processed foods are rarely better then whole foods for people or dogs. If any one has a problem with information I have provided as being false or incorrect I would like to know so I can explain what it is they don't understand. Close minded I am not, persistent maybe. New comers can read and that's mostly what I encourage them to do when trying to choose what's best for their dog. I do have experience feeding raw and like helping others, so I hope the pro kibble community sees it that way.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:06 pm

I think the issue is you've explained enough and folks would like to see proof of claims. How many dogs have you had live to 15+ on raw diet exclusively. Have u run those dogs with kibble eaters to see increased stamina? Devils in the details ....legit studies would be good evidence too. I had hoped you would come to the chukar challenge I posted up in central PA ....

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:14 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I think the issue is you've explained enough and folks would like to see proof of claims. How many dogs have you had live to 15+ on raw diet exclusively. Have u run those dogs with kibble eaters to see increased stamina? Devils in the details ....legit studies would be good evidence too. I had hoped you would come to the chukar challenge I posted up in central PA ....

Glad you brought this up BD 68, Just under 4 years on my raw fed Britt and as far as feeding a dog raw correctly for life, no and I have not heard from anyone on this forum that has. I have heard of the kibble fed dogs living to 15+ and am glad to hear that, every dog deserves to live a long life. I did hear from one member on this forum that feeds raw and confirmed the endless amount of energy along with no soreness or stiffness after long hunts the following day. He called it the recovery time. I never said my raw fed dog could out run, out hunt or out live any ones dog. What I did say and still believe is that a raw fed dog properly fed has a better chance of living longer then a kibble fed dog. Sure good genes and will power are part of the equation but good nutrition is equally important. Now if you want proof that whole foods provide better nutrition then processed foods I can provide that. But you already know that if nature designed it, that's as good as it gets. What's that old saying, "you cant fool mother nature".

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:18 pm

Bounty Hunter: you clearly are on a mission, a crusade actually. RAW feeders who constantly challenge kibble feeders tend to take RAW feeding to the point of religion. Which is why I say you're on a crusade. I would compare it to a vegan trying to persuade meat eaters that they are wrong. Meat eaters as a group are usually fine with vegans until they try and push their beliefs onto them. Unfortunately, some vegans have a self-righteous belief that it is up to them to save the planet, even if it means stomping on the rights of the meat eaters.

By coming here and trying to create debate, stir the pot, question, or whatever it is you think you're doing, you're really just charging into the same windmill time and time again.

You really should join a raw feeding forum and learn from the people who have fed this way for many years. Some have dropped the raw, crushed veggies altogether and only feed the meat and bones. Others feed "prey model" with whole rabbits - fur and all. Lots of fun and much to learn without crashing into the same windmill.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:22 pm

Nature also designed digitalis, cyanide, and ricin...does that mean those are great for dogs too?

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:28 pm

shags wrote:Nature also designed digitalis, cyanide, and ricin...does that mean those are great for dogs too?

Did/Do- Dogs eat them before or after kibble was manufactured?

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:29 pm

nanney1 wrote:Bounty Hunter: you clearly are on a mission, a crusade actually. RAW feeders who constantly challenge kibble feeders tend to take RAW feeding to the point of religion. Which is why I say you're on a crusade. I would compare it to a vegan trying to persuade meat eaters that they are wrong. Meat eaters as a group are usually fine with vegans until they try and push their beliefs onto them. Unfortunately, some vegans have a self-righteous belief that it is up to them to save the planet, even if it means stomping on the rights of the meat eaters.

By coming here and trying to create debate, stir the pot, question, or whatever it is you think you're doing, you're really just charging into the same windmill time and time again.

You really should join a raw feeding forum and learn from the people who have fed this way for many years. Some have dropped the raw, crushed veggies altogether and only feed the meat and bones. Others feed "prey model" with whole rabbits - fur and all. Lots of fun and much to learn without crashing into the same windmill.

I'm not just a dog owner nanny and that's why I enjoy reading about hunting too. What really bugs me though is how easy it is for me to move on to a different topic if I don't like or agree with what is being discussed, yet it seems difficult for others to do the same.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:05 pm

You have got to be kidding BH! You are the one who tries to work your agenda into every thread you post on. You are the one who refuses to drop it and move on to another subject!!

nanney1, your post may be the best one yet. IMO.

Charlie

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:11 pm

nanney1 wrote:Bounty Hunter: ...You really should join a raw feeding forum and learn from the people who have fed this way for many years. Some have dropped the raw, crushed veggies altogether and only feed the meat and bones. Others feed "prey model" with whole rabbits - fur and all. Lots of fun and much to learn without crashing into the same windmill.

An apple, even an under ripe apple, does not stand out in a bushel of apples as does a muskmelon....do that math.

I also suspect that those who feed raw fit into several different categories and degrees of commonsense and experience....it must be difficult when conflicting ideas are found in the same church, let alone the same pew. I reckon folks may then look for more fertile ground.

If I have a moment or three, I may go to a raw message board and see if kibble folks are present and trying to convert the heathens.
Their degree of proselytizing or, perhaps, absence may tell the truest story.

I would think that a FOR(Friend of Raw) would list some raw websites/message boards for these folks looking to discover more information...surely there are ways to present information apart from involving the personal pronoun I alone.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:14 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote: I'm not just a dog owner nanny and that's why I enjoy reading about hunting too. What really bugs me though is how easy it is for me to move on to a different topic if I don't like or agree with what is being discussed, yet it seems difficult for others to do the same.

I saw the topic said "Raw" and then was quite impressed that you weren't proselytizing - but you couldn't resist could you. But of course you are innocent... :roll:

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:47 pm

Let me get this straight, I try to help out a guy who wants some info on feeding raw and a group of known pro kibble feeders want to crucify me for sharing my experience and my opinion on the subject. Help me understand what's going on here, PLEASE????????

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:01 pm

Interesting that the word "crucify" was chosen.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:19 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:Let me get this straight, I try to help out a guy who wants some info on feeding raw and a group of known pro kibble feeders want to crucify me for sharing my experience and my opinion on the subject. Help me understand what's going on here, PLEASE????????

Question...is there anything you know about gundogs or training or hunting or field trialing or anything else that you could contribute or learn from this site other than continually crusading for feeding raw and bashing dog food companies?? Never mind, I already know the answer. I would suggest you get a life.

Charlie

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:39 pm

To the OP----------------http://www.thebark.com or http://www.rawfed.com or http://www.dogster.com

Dunno, but it'll give you a start of ideas to consider in the raw direction.
I would only suggest that we all want healthy dogs....but we all do not let agenda blind us to reality.
Sift any Internet information wisely, very wisely.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:04 pm

Mountaineer, I would like to make peace with you. I couldn't PM you because you have me blocked, as I do you. I apologize if you will accept it. We could still disagree on certain things but it is much easier to have friends than enemies. Let me know.

Charlie

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:18 pm

birddogger wrote:Question...is there anything you know about gundogs or training or hunting or field trialing or anything else that you could contribute or learn from this site other than continually crusading for feeding raw and bashing dog food companies?? Never mind, I already know the answer. I would suggest you get a life.Charlie

See Charlie, you guys are trying to frame me as the bad guy when all I was doing is being helpful to someone who was looking for help. I never mentioned anything negative about commercial dog food, just that people might oppose raw feeding on here. And you all proved me right in the past 5 posts. As you already know I'm not that experienced training gun dogs so I mostly try and listen rather then give advice but I do help out with hunting and other topics when I can.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:19 pm

Sure birddogger, no problem....back at ya.
There is room for disagreement in all things if respect trails along and we each certainly have experiences that tend to steer us.....perhaps sadly at times, to shove us in directions that are a bit too one-way.
I know that I can always do better....no issue ever has only a single viewpoint.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:24 pm

Mountaineer wrote:Sure birddogger, no problem....back at ya.
There is room for disagreement in all things if respect trails along and we each certainly have experiences that tend to steer us.....perhaps sadly at times, to shove us in directions that are a bit too one-way.
I know that I can always do better....no issue ever has only a single viewpoint.

8
Great, I appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:36 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
birddogger wrote:Question...is there anything you know about gundogs or training or hunting or field trialing or anything else that you could contribute or learn from this site other than continually crusading for feeding raw and bashing dog food companies?? Never mind, I already know the answer. I would suggest you get a life.Charlie
See Charlie, you guys are trying to frame me as the bad guy when all I was doing is being helpful to someone who was looking for help. I never mentioned anything negative about commercial dog food, just that people might oppose raw feeding on here. And you all proved me right in the past 5 posts. As you already know I'm not that experienced training gun dogs so I mostly try and listen rather then give advice but I do help out with hunting and other topics when I can.

You have constantly blasted commercial dog food on various threads, and nobody has opposed raw feeding if that is what a person decides to do.

Charlie

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:19 pm

birddog1968 wrote:I think the issue is you've explained enough and folks would like to see proof of claims. How many dogs have you had live to 15+ on raw diet exclusively. Have u run those dogs with kibble eaters to see increased stamina? Devils in the details ....legit studies would be good evidence too. I had hoped you would come to the chukar challenge I posted up in central PA ....

I really have very limited time and got my dog mostly for hunting and not trial stuff. Perhaps I may try it some time down the road but my dog is only three so there is lots of time yet and he does need a little more work. It would be interesting to see how he would work other game birds though. He has hunted pheasant, grouse and woodcock but the woodcock are by chance because I really don't hunt them.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:31 pm

It really was just fun runs, not really a trial.....training levels ran the gamut.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:38 am

Bounty_Hunter wrote:...you guys are trying to frame me as the bad guy when all I was doing is being helpful to someone who was looking for help. I never mentioned anything negative about commercial dog food

Yes you do, BH, all the time. You make constant remarks about commercial feed producers lying, and doing nefarious things that harm dogs, solely for profit. You consistently paint them as shady and underhanded. Yet you have never once pointed out even one example of this - not one instance that you can prove that something was advertised yet was later proven to be false. Never one example of how commercial feeds inhibit health and vigor in our dogs has crossed your keyboard. And i believe that is what many of us object to concerning your stand commercial vs raw. I don't think anyone would even object to the lack of real scientific studies to back up your claims that raw is superior if you would at least bring proof that commercial foods are consistently harmful.

The Kibbleites here are tired of being pictured as lazy unconcerned dog owners who feed commercial products because we don't care enough about our dogs to go to raw. And you choose wording that would lead readers to the conclusion that is your opinion of us. On the other hand we kibble feeders don't slam raw, but merely state which commercial products have worked for us in giving us healthy, happy, productive dogs.

Do not bother to demand that I go through your many posts to point out examples of my statements here. We all, excluding you, know it. Do it yourself - reread your many posts with an honest eye toward how you promote your choice.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:38 pm

shags wrote:Yes you do, BH, all the time. You make constant remarks about commercial feed producers lying, and doing nefarious things that harm dogs, solely for profit. You consistently paint them as shady and underhanded. Yet you have never once pointed out even one example of this - not one instance that you can prove that something was advertised yet was later proven to be false. Never one example of how commercial feeds inhibit health and vigor in our dogs has crossed your keyboard. And i believe that is what many of us object to concerning your stand commercial vs raw. I don't think anyone would even object to the lack of real scientific studies to back up your claims that raw is superior if you would at least bring proof that commercial foods are consistently harmful. The Kibbleites here are tired of being pictured as lazy unconcerned dog owners who feed commercial products because we don't care enough about our dogs to go to raw. And you choose wording that would lead readers to the conclusion that is your opinion of us. On the other hand we kibble feeders don't slam raw, but merely state which commercial products have worked for us in giving us healthy, happy, productive dogs. Do not bother to demand that I go through your many posts to point out examples of my statements here. We all, excluding you, know it. Do it yourself - reread your many posts with an honest eye toward how you promote your choice.

Oh, and everyone on this forum is completely innocent and has never for their own satisfaction deliberately found fault with feeding raw? Give me a break. Yes, I have pointed out things that bother me about how the commercial dog food industry promotes their products and on many occasions provided proof of their dishonesty and even how many in the veterinary care field also see it as so. Make sure you go far enough back if you decide to call me on it. Now on a lighter side and what seems to be confusing to some on here is that I cant prove weather a raw fed dog will outlive, out run or out hunt a kibble fed dog because we all know that there are too many variables that come into play such as genetics, will power and luck but what I did say is that processed foods can not compete with whole foods when it comes to providing the best nutrition, and I still believe it. Sorry if I made anyone feel lazy or unconcerned as to how they care for their dogs, that was never my intention. For future reference I will leave the dog food industry out of any advice I share on feeding raw and that way no one in the kibble community should be offended.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:44 pm

Two key words in your post....we aren't confused we are amused...you base everything you say on what you just admitted "you can't prove"....then you go on to say " you believe" which means your arguments are faith based kinda like religion.

While the kibble feeders can at a minimum base their opinions on a ton of combined experience feeding many many dogs. The kibblers have not tried to tell you our dogs will live longer or hunt longer, only that your beliefs don't equal facts based on very little if any evidence with one dog for a couple years.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:10 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:what I did say is that processed foods can not compete with whole foods when it comes to providing the best nutrition, and I still believe it.

Did you read that peer reviewed scientific article I posted in your rants a while ago that intimated part of the reason for the evolutionary dominance of the human species is the fact we learned to cook our food?

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:14 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Two key words in your post....we aren't confused we are amused...you base everything you say on what you just admitted "you can't prove"....then you go on to say " you believe" which means your arguments are faith based kinda like religion.

While the kibble feeders can at a minimum base their opinions on a ton of combined experience feeding many many dogs. The kibblers have not tried to tell you our dogs will live longer or hunt longer, only that your beliefs don't equal facts based on very little if any evidence with one dog for a couple years.

No. The reason I or We cant prove a raw fed dog would do better in life is because of what I just mentioned. what I can prove is that whole foods are more nutritious then processed foods and if we could know that two dogs were genetically equal with the same drive and luck then the dog that received a natural whole food diet would live longer and out do the kibble fed dog. That's what I am saying.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:31 pm

"...we could know that two dogs were genetically equal with the same drive and luck then the dog that received a natural whole food diet would live longer and out do the kibble fed dog."

Please. I'm begging here. Give us one link to a study that proves this statement. Do not attempt to deflect with no two dogs are genetically equal and lucky, since we know that colonies of dogs ( beagles) that are genetically very similar, raised in the same environment, are available to research groups. No excuses please.

nanney1 · Post by **nanney1** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:22 am

Bounty Hunter:

I'm sure if you take the time to join a Yahoo email group list dedicated to RAW feeding, or search out a discussion forum, you will find people who have fed RAW for 20 years or more. You will find people who have bred multiple litters over that time, and have raised multiple litters of pups on RAW food. In those cases, it is very likely that the breeders raised the pup or pups they kept on a RAW diet, while the littermates were switched to kibble once they went home to a new owner. These breeders, and they are out there, will likely have some information as to the longevity and health of their RAW fed keepers in comparison to the kibble fed littermates. It would be an interesting thing to find out.

Bounty_Hunter · Post by **Bounty_Hunter** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:22 pm

nanney1 wrote:Bounty Hunter:

I'm sure if you take the time to join a Yahoo email group list dedicated to RAW feeding, or search out a discussion forum, you will find people who have fed RAW for 20 years or more. You will find people who have bred multiple litters over that time, and have raised multiple litters of pups on RAW food. In those cases, it is very likely that the breeders raised the pup or pups they kept on a RAW diet, while the littermates were switched to kibble once they went home to a new owner. These breeders, and they are out there, will likely have some information as to the longevity and health of their RAW fed keepers in comparison to the kibble fed littermates. It would be an interesting thing to find out.

Thank you nanny, that's a good idea. I will see what I can come up. It might just give us some unbiased data that we can all live with.

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:33 pm

I have a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I feed and recommend raw, and I recommend making your own raw. It is more complicated, it takes time, and it costs more money, but the end result cannot be argued with.

For the record, I analyze and sell food for a living, and there are some kibbles that are good, and most are not. But it all comes down to what priorities you have, time vs. money vs. convenience, etc. A dog can live on a kibble based diet. A dog can thrive on a raw diet.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:22 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:I have a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. I feed and recommend raw, and I recommend making your own raw. It is more complicated, it takes time, and it costs more money, but the end result cannot be argued with.

For the record, I analyze and sell food for a living, and there are some kibbles that are good, and most are not. But it all comes down to what priorities you have, time vs. money vs. convenience, etc. A dog can live on a kibble based diet. A dog can thrive on a raw diet.

A dog can also thrive on a kibble diet as has been proved by thousands of high performance dogs over many years.

Charlie

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:24 pm

Its terrible watching the ones just living and getting by.....
[img]http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/c ... -59-48.png[/img]

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:50 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Its terrible watching the ones just living and getting by.....

Those dogs are all doing so poorly that they cannot even move. Frozen in place every one of them. So sad...