Couple of worm/health/vet opinions wanted

[bgcole]

Took my recent rescued GSP to a vet clinic a week or two ago and just got him re vaxed on everything incl. rabies because I had no paperwork.Previous living situation was no good - so we are trying to get him caught up and into good health. hes going to get boosters in mid august on all of that stuff, except rabies which will be one year. He had an ear infection that i've been rinsing with 50/50 vinegar and water and seems to be 95% gone (at vets instruction). She didn't want to test him for heartworm until Aug or september. She didnt really elaborate on why, just said treat preventatively for fleas, ticks and heartworm, and we'll test in August... (is tri-heart what most here use?)

Over the weekend he started coughing a little bit like he had an itch in there...not alot, but enough that it raised a flag. Mostly at night
He eats some grass since ive gotten him - no big deal in itself. Probably most of my dogs have been grass eaters.
I've checked his feces for worms that can be seen and there isn't anything - probably will do a triple wormer anyways though
Outside he is wound up like most GSP's i've met
Inside he is pretty mellow, sleeps a lot (hes neutered). I would describe him as lethargic if it wasnt for how GSP like he is outside...wound...

He had a tick on him when we got him which weve since taken care of and got him on a preventative ... but lyme disease possibilities did cross my mind.

So my question is revolving around the heart worm test - Did she not want to test because they wouldn't be able to accurately test at this time of year due to maturation of the heart worms? Hes 18 to 24 months old.

Regardless of the test - Is there a treatment i can just do for heartworm or is my understanding correct and its Rx only, and a little bit complicated/expensive...?

[Sharon]

We give rabies shots every 3 years here in Canada. Is it different in the States? Why?
Most of us here in Canada use Heartguard for heartworm protection.( About $80.00 for 6 months , which is all we need. Advantage 2 for fleas and ticks = about $80.00 too for 6 months.)

July 21 is pretty close to August. She may have been busy or wanted to let you save your money for a couple weeks. I wouldn't worry about that but would get it done in August. There are many kinds of ticks. Only the deer tick can give lyme disease.I wouldn't start any heartworm preventative until you see the vet in August. If a dog has heartworm a full dose of preventative can harm the dog. Dogs that have heartworm are put on a very particular dose to kill the worms slowly.

Very lucky dog to have you. Enjoy.

[ezzy333]

We give rabies shots every 3 years here in Canada. Is it different in the States? Why?
Most of us here in Canada use Heartguard for heartworm protection.( About $80.00 for 6 months , which is all we need. Advantage 2 for fleas and ticks = about $80.00 too for 6 months.)

July 21 is pretty close to August. She may have been busy or wanted to let you save your money for a couple weeks. I wouldn't worry about that but would get it done in August. There are many kinds of ticks. Only the deer tick can give lyme disease.I wouldn't start any heartworm preventative until you see the vet in August. If a dog has heartworm a full dose of preventative can harm the dog. Dogs that have heartworm are put on a very particular dose to kill the worms slowly.

Very lucky dog to have you. Enjoy.

Sharon, most states if not all allow the three year shots. As far as heartworm, I have used Ivomec 1% for years and cam do three or four dogs for 3 years with a 30 dollar bottle and still throw half of it away. I switched to the paste this year and it will cost about 5 dollars a dog per year, maybe less. The Ivomec can be used as a prevenative without a test as it only kills the microfilaria. That is what a lot of the shelters are doing now with the dogs they pick up.

[Sharon]

We give rabies shots every 3 years here in Canada. Is it different in the States? Why?
Most of us here in Canada use Heartguard for heartworm protection.( About $80.00 for 6 months , which is all we need. Advantage 2 for fleas and ticks = about $80.00 too for 6 months.)

July 21 is pretty close to August. She may have been busy or wanted to let you save your money for a couple weeks. I wouldn't worry about that but would get it done in August. There are many kinds of ticks. Only the deer tick can give lyme disease.I wouldn't start any heartworm preventative until you see the vet in August. If a dog has heartworm a full dose of preventative can harm the dog. Dogs that have heartworm are put on a very particular dose to kill the worms slowly.

Very lucky dog to have you. Enjoy.

Sharon, most states if not all allow the three year shots. As far as heartworm, I have used Ivomec 1% for years and cam do three or four dogs for 3 years with a 30 dollar bottle and still throw half of it away. I switched to the paste this year and it will cost about 5 dollars a dog per year, maybe less. The Ivomec can be used as a prevenative without a test as it only kills the microfilaria. That is what a lot of the shelters are doing now with the dogs they pick up.

That's very interesting. I'm one of those people who don't have confidence in doing it myself. .. one of those folk that keep the vet rich . I am going to consider using the plan you have outlined though. Thanks.

[bgcole]

Sharon - Thank you. Im not a tick expert, but deer ticks are the ones we have around here. this year the gnats have been really bad too.

Ezzy -
Would the Ivomec 1% "kill two birds with one stone" so to speak in that it would act as a preventative if he doesn't have heart worm as well as a treatment if he does (circumventing testing)? Or would it still be potentially dangerous to use it as a preventative in the case that he does? Also, TSC or country max be good places to buy it?

You sort of touched on what im asking in your post - i just want to make sure the action i take is safe for him...

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I only have 8 dogs right now but I use Ivermectin, Safeguard and Bio Spot. All bought from TSC and it costs a lot less then the Vets charge. My Vet only does my emergency work.

PS.. They stay on Ivermectin all year so I don't even test them. Our mosquito season never ends here.

[zrp]

As a vet, I try to be an asset to my clients rather than an expense. Tri-heart is a generic of Heartguard. Same active ingredients. The hw preventative in these two products is ivermectin. Ivermectin, in any form can be dangerous in a hw positive dog, not because it kills adults, but because it kills microfilaria. We test for adults and look at a smear for microfilaria. Without adults you won’t have the millions of microfilaria that can cause an anaphylactic reaction if we kill them rapidly. Please test your adult dogs before beginning a preventative.
I think it’s great to save money. Use ivomec and use the savings on a case of your favorite shotgun shells. But build a relationship with your local vet. He or she wants to help you with any questions you may have and if they don’t- find one that does. Oh, and take them hunting in your best spots too. I hope some of my clients read that last line.

[Sharon]

Excellent post . Thank you.

"As a vet, I try to be an asset to my clients rather than an expense." quote ................definitely true of my vet too.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Excellent post . Thank you.

"As a vet, I try to be an asset to my clients rather than an expense." quote ................definitely true of my vet too.

Mine also which is who taught me to do a lot of things on my own.

[bgcole]

Thanks for all the replies. because alot of human communication can get lost in written text - sometimes i like to state my intent and motive before I post something like this - Im not being argumentative, Im a life long learner and i try to understand things..... I view this as an opportunity to ask a vet quetions because i dont have a solid vet (yet).

It seems there is some disagreement about the use of ivomec in a hw positive dogs (which is unknown in my case)...not just on GDF, across the interwebs.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... tworm.aspx

there are alot of these articles, im not gonna go crazy here, by seemingly credible sources - Doxy is being prescribed in this article in tandem as well...

The slow kill method of treating HW seems to be almost universally using ivermectin over the course of 12-24 months - which logically makes me wonder where the risk would be involved in treating a "potentially" HW positive dogs with ivomec as a "preventative" since this is the "low risk option" when comparing it to the fast kill method...

a little bit of research seems to confirm that ivermectin is the active in all of these drugs, which makes me wonder why my vet is giving me this drug for my white footed shepherd, chihuahua, yellow lab mix (theres gotta be a story there but i don't know it because he was a rescue). I had never really researched HW treatments so i didnt know some dogs react negatively...and took my vets advice on the HW pill

I guess the more I read, im sort of feeling like heartworm is over exaggerated - and at $16 bucks a pill at the vet, motives start to get questioned.

[shags]

You're overthinking it at this point.

Call your vet and have the dog tested for HW. If the test is negative, you have a choice of preventatives.

If the test is positive, you'll have to ask your vet about treatment options.

If you don't trust your vet, find another one. The vet you choose should be your ally in your dogs' healthcare, not someone you feel is an adversary out to rip you off. You should feel free to ask questions and get explanations that you can understand. Dr. Google can be helpful but without some understanding of the issues at hand, can lead you astray.

No way on should you treat active heartworm disease on your own unless you are willing to lose your dog.

We all like to save a buck when we can, but there are certain things that warrant professional care.

[bgcole]

Fair enough. This isnt so much about saving money as it is understanding. Its more about saving time and not having to go to the vet.

But i do need a new vet...

[Sharon]

Thanks for all the replies. because alot of human communication can get lost in written text - sometimes i like to state my intent and motive before I post something like this - Im not being argumentative, Im a life long learner and i try to understand things..... I view this as an opportunity to ask a vet quetions because i dont have a solid vet (yet).

It seems there is some disagreement about the use of ivomec in a hw positive dogs (which is unknown in my case)...not just on GDF, across the interwebs.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... tworm.aspx

there are alot of these articles, im not gonna go crazy here, by seemingly credible sources - Doxy is being prescribed in this article in tandem as well...

The slow kill method of treating HW seems to be almost universally using ivermectin over the course of 12-24 months - which logically makes me wonder where the risk would be involved in treating a "potentially" HW positive dogs with ivomec as a "preventative" since this is the "low risk option" when comparing it to the fast kill method...

a little bit of research seems to confirm that ivermectin is the active in all of these drugs, which makes me wonder why my vet is giving me this drug for my white footed shepherd, chihuahua, yellow lab mix (theres gotta be a story there but i don't know it because he was a rescue). I had never really researched HW treatments so i didnt know some dogs react negatively...and took my vets advice on the HW pill

I guess the more I read, im sort of feeling like heartworm is over exaggerated - and at $16 bucks a pill at the vet, motives start to get questioned.

.........................................................

Not over-exaggerated where I live ; NY isn't that far from Ontario.

http://www.ovma.org/pet_owners/dogs/heartworm.html

"A study on “Heartworm in dogs in Canada in 2010” published by the Ontario Veterinary College’s Department of Pathobiology at the University of Guelph has revealed a 60 per cent increase in the number of dogs in Ontario with heartworm since the last study of its kind was conducted in 2002. "

I don't begrudge the money I pay for the vet's expertise, ( education- 7 years after high school)) or the meds.

If we actually got a bill for our health care expenses / visits to the Dr./ meds etc , we would be more understanding of vet fees.

This is your new dog "recent, rescue GSP". You seem surprised at the costs of a dog. Did you consider this before you rescued?

If you don't trust that your vet is working in your best interest and your dog's best interest , then you definitely need a new vet.
If big dog bills are a problem consider dog insurance. I pay $60.00 a month for everything.

disclaimer: Many on here have MANY dogs/ kennels and are very knowledgeable when it comes to dog meds. I respect their expertise too.

[bgcole]

I think your jumped to some conclusions about me there and i didnt really appreciate it - I have more than one dog now, have had other hunting dogs- i am not surprised and im not sure why you thought that because im trying to learn about heartworm treatments and the ins and outs of it. sure im overthinking it - its in my nature, i overthink everything - but atleast im thinking.

FWIW - In my opinion 564 cases in the entire province of ontario is not a very high percentage of cases based on the population - it's less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent. There were 4 million dogs in ontario at the last tally around the same time as that study, interesting that they didnt say how big their control group was.

moving on....

[Sharon]

This was your statement that I responded to. Someone else said you were "over -thinking".
"I guess the more I read, I'm sort of feeling like heartworm is over exaggerated - and at $16 bucks a pill at the vet, motives start to get questioned." quote

Definitely your choice to take any risks you want with your dogs. They are your dogs.

[ezzy333]

This was your statement that I responded to. Someone else said you were "over -thinking".
"I guess the more I read, I'm sort of feeling like heartworm is over exaggerated - and at $16 bucks a pill at the vet, motives start to get questioned." quote

Definitely your choice to take any risks you want with your dogs. They are your dogs.

And I am with him. I don't think in the case of medication costs that the vet is to blame but when a product with a few cents worth of a drug in it that costs 16 dollars some one is getting rich at your expense. And I see little risk to my dog for using the product that I administer instead of buying an over priced pill.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

We're discussing two different topics I think - necessity of testing and $$

I don't usually post my opinion more than once on a subject, but my only concern is the dog.

O.P. said"
"The slow kill method of treating HW seems to be almost universally using ivermectin over the course of 12-24 months - which logically makes me wonder where the risk would be involved in treating a "potentially" HW positive dogs with ivomec as a "preventative" since this is the "low risk option" when comparing it to the fast kill method..."

good question

The vet said, " Ivermectin, in any form can be dangerous in a hw positive dog, not because it kills adults, but because it kills microfilaria. We test for adults and look at a smear for microfilaria. Without adults you won’t have the millions of microfilaria that can cause an anaphylactic reaction if we kill them rapidly. Please test your adult dogs before beginning a preventative. "

Whether one chooses to use Ivermectin themselves or pay for the pills is everyone's decision. I'm simply pushing for getting a new rescue dog tested first.
..............

When talking about $$$ everyone has to make their own decisions .
............

I've already broken my rule on posting too often on a subject so I'll just shut up now.

[shags]

This was your statement that I responded to. Someone else said you were "over -thinking".
"I guess the more I read, I'm sort of feeling like heartworm is over exaggerated - and at $16 bucks a pill at the vet, motives start to get questioned." quote

Definitely your choice to take any risks you want with your dogs. They are your dogs.

And I am with him. I don't think in the case of medication costs that the vet is to blame but when a product with a few cents worth of a drug in it that costs 16 dollars some one is getting rich at your expense. And I see little risk to my dog for using the product that I administer instead of buying an over priced pill.

Ezzy

The issue is that for the sake of the dog's good health, a heartworm check should be done before ANY medication is administered. If the OP wants to risk his dog's life by medicating before he gets clearance from a veterinary professional, that's his business. However, IMO he should give some consideration that if he chooses to not give a preventative, if the dog becomes infected with HW, he puts every dog in the vicinity at risk as well.

[dog dr]

Listen to shags... Best advice in this whole thread.

[frontline]

Your dog is very cute. Don't stop with just researching HW, read about over-vaccination too, a huge concern when it comes to auto-immune diseases, allergies etc. Your dog has an ear infection, it could be nothing more than a sensitivity to something in his food, water in his ear etc. or it could be a sign of allergies.

Is there a way to find out where he was vetted to get his records? Sometimes this isn't possible but there is an alternative to vaccinating and that is blood titers. A blood test can tell you if your dog is already protected. You can't make an immune dog more immune, you either have immunity or you don't. Giving a dog a vaccination when immunity is already present in sufficient amounts is taking an unnecessary risk and predisposing your dog to possible future immune issues. There are on-going studies challenging the duration of vaccines and it's now known that some of them are effective for 7 years and probably lifetime! These studies will no doubt change they way we vaccinate and the health/longevity of our dogs. You can help too, visit rabies challenge fund.org

I cringe when I hear of people doing 7 in one combos, they aren't necessary and can be harmful. it's also now recommended that you separate core vaccinations from rabies by 2-4 weeks. (I also cringe when I hear people don't test their dog for HW because they give preventative year round, this is no longer recommended! HW is becoming immune to common preventatives and presumably incorrect dosing schedules/practices may be responsible. Test for HW once/year regardless.)

Re-Vaccination: Vaccination for Previously Vaccinated Dogs and Older Puppies: http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

Here is the new AAHA guidelines: https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments ... elines.pdf

There's a lot of information out there, research vaccination so you can make an informed decision on behalf of your pet. Rabies is the only vaccination required by law and the others are your choice. I'm not saying to not vaccinate your dog at all but if a blood titer shows your dog has immunity then vaccination isn't necessary and could be harmful.

[frontline]

Only 2 URL's are allowed per post (really?) :roll: so here's 2 more guidelines for vaccination:

Canine Vaccination guidlines: http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Canine%2 ... dlines.htm
Dr. Jean Dodds a world renown expert in this field: http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

[bgcole]

Thanks Frontline - I think we approach healthcare in similar ways. With my kids it seems like they want to give a new vaccination every year. We just do the main one...

Im going to read these articles this afternoon. Hes getting a full blood panel today at a new vet which my friend recommended - to check for HW/Lyme and some other stuff. The only record that i had on him is his name and was told what area he was from (elmira, NY).... I literally called 14 vets in Elmira and a 50 mile radius. They were all helpful but found no records on him.

I talked to 3 veterinary offices about what they would propose as a plan for a rescue dog that I was told was UTD on all shots and rabies with no records....and not one of them mentioned checking the blood. They all said they would just revax for everything and it would be fine... and then give him a booster on what is basically the 5in1 in 3 weeks.

The vet im going to actually wasnt one of the 3 i called because i didnt know about them yet...So he got revaxed, and is supposed to get the booster. Im going to ask about what they think about all this and if he really needs the boosters.

[frontline]

I'm not sure I would get a full blood panel at this point but if you want to it wouldn't hurt. Do get the HW check, it's a separate test as is the Lyme and vaccination titer(s). If he was recently vaccinated it could be too soon to check titers, make sure you tell your vet what date he had them.

I think most vets don't suggest titers because of 2 reasons:
1. They cost more. I've been doing them for years and the cost has gone down (maybe their catching on). The titers I've had done weren't that much more than the vaccination, < $20 in my case but this can vary by location. Really only Distemper and Parvo are recommended. These 2 are almost always given together and Parvo is mostly a problem of young puppies so if you check for Distemper only and he has sufficient antibodies, it means he sero-converted and I wouldn't do any more core vaccinations. Rabies is another story, you have to follow the law unless your state allows exemptions. I have an older dog with an exemption that no longer gets a rabies vaccinations.

2. Vets that aren't conservative feel that a client won't have wellness checks if there isn't a need for vaccination. In other words, vaccinations bring people to the vet. Some vets are still vaccinating yearly!!! Also, vets may not know or think re-vaccination is harmless, "it's easier and cheaper to just re-vaccinate". In the long run, titers are cheaper than treating allergies or an auto-immune disease.

[frontline]

Only one of the links that I posted above (on re-vaccination) will take time to read, the others are guidelines. The Dr. Dodds guidelines is compact in a nice chart, the AAHA goes into more detail.

Here are two more links if your interested, one is a recorded webcast from probably the world's foremost expert and the other is audience Q&A printout from the webcast.

http://www.maddiesfund.org/Documents/Re ... nd%20A.pdf
http://truth4pets.org/2012/07/titer-test-drschultz/