Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

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NJGriffNut
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Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by NJGriffNut » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:25 am

I just wanted to give the forum a friendly heads up about not purchasing this Tractor Supply Co. house brand dog food. I know it is cheap, and the bag looks great- but it is dangerous, and has the potential to be deadly. I say that statement knowing just how serious the claim is.

Meat and bone meal, ground yellow corn, wheat middlings, ground wheat, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, color added (red #40, yellow #5, blue #2), L-lysine, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate..


Say what you want about an unnamed source of inferior protein as the first ingredient, and the fact that is is filled with corn, soy, and wheat.

It contains the known carcinogen BHA, the synthetic preservative

And the most heinous ingredient in dog food history- menadione bisodium sulfite



If you feed this food, it is my recommendation that you change foods to ANY food that eliminates BHA and Menadione Sodium Bisulfite

I don't have a horse in this race- but this food has very dangerous ingredients in it.
Last edited by NJGriffNut on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:39 am

I think before you post something like this you should get all of your facts together and post links to each of them rather than ask people to not use a feed that many are using with good results just because it us your opinion.

Most of us are using a feed with many of those same ingredients and not only not having a problem with it but we insist on using a feed with those ingredients, corn and wheat for example. There are many other things wrong with your analysis but lets just start with these. We can allow this post to stand for now but we do want to see some peer reviewed research that says we are all in trouble.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:15 pm

Thanks Ezzy, for handling this with diplomacy.

I do not know the feed, but as you say the ingredients are ok, good even.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:38 pm

I was waiting for you to respond Ezzy. Well said.:)
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:49 pm

I have used it in the past and never had any issue. I think someone is being overly dramatic or actually has an agenda. I know a Pro that has fed it to hundreds of dogs and has never had any problems either and besides, I doubt any company could stay in business if their food is as bad as the OP wants us to believe.

I also commend EZZY for allowing this post to remain for now.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by NJGriffNut » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:11 pm

The two most objectionable ingredients are BHA and menadione. Do some research and justify how it is a quality ingredient.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:31 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:The two most objectionable ingredients are BHA and menadione. Do some research and justify how it is a quality ingredient.
Both serve a purpose and are considered safe since the toxicity level is more than a 1000 tines normal daily use. Can't even begin to tell you how many products fall into that range that we all use. Also odd that you mentioned several other problems before these were mentioned. That indicated to all of us that they were more important.

We still need some research to back up your concerns that these products are causing actual health problems and not just someone's idea of a marketing tool.
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:02 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:The two most objectionable ingredients are BHA and menadione. Do some research and justify how it is a quality ingredient.
Ah, I do not accept the homework assignment. It is your allegation, you prove it, or find another pastime.

We try to deal with facts here.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by NJGriffNut » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:07 pm

lol- homework assignment. it isn't my dogs that will die young with cancer and disease.

Ezzy- you really have quite a mushroom farm here. You just feed them shite and keep them in the dark.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by gotpointers » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:31 pm

[quote="- you really have quite a mushroom farm here. You just feed them shite and keep them in the dark.[/quote]

That is a good one. I'm gonna have to steal it.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:37 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:lol- homework assignment. it isn't my dogs that will die young with cancer and disease.

Ezzy- you really have quite a mushroom farm here. You just feed them shite and keep them in the dark.
You know you are the first one to notice but it helps a great deal that most of us have or have had many happy healthy dogs that have performed to the best of their capabilities and have lived a long disease free life. Personally, I have had one dog that had cancer and she was one that had a false pregnancy every time she cam in heat. I should have had her spayed but didn't and I think that may have had something to due with the mammary cancer. That's out of several hundred dogs in my life time. I have had to make 3 or 4 trips to the vet in those years but all were for injuries and not sickness.

For of my followers, they are way ahead of me and many of them tell me that, But again the tie that binds are healthy happy dogs. Oh and one other thing, some form of common sense has something to do with it. None of us are going to get bent out of shape about our dogs diet when they are doing well. Kind of like taking information from some one that bases his opinions on the premise our dogs are mangy, ill suited animals that only life a couple of flea bitten years when they can look down at a NC, FC, AFC, DC, JH, SH, MH, Agility or several other performance titled dog that are laying at their feet and jump up and shout "OMG, I had no idea my dog is suffering till I happened to see it here on the GDF".

But never give up telling us how stupid we really are. It always is a wonderful way to influence people and make friends. God Bless\

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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:48 pm

I did catch my three setters reading the dog food bag....I put the quietus on that real quick.
You get hypochondria started in a kennel then you got trouble, buster. :!:

As well, it's too late for the two oldest to die young at 13+ and 14+ but, I hope I have done my best to see that they live happy.
That later would be a sound idea for humans.
More easily accomplished pre-Internet, of course.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by 10Sam29 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:03 pm

No worries here, I have a GWP, so I won't feed him retriever food.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Sharon » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:40 pm

NJGriffNut wrote:lol- homework assignment. it isn't my dogs that will die young with cancer and disease.

Ezzy- you really have quite a mushroom farm here. You just feed them shite and keep them in the dark.
..............

Don't worry; we fight our way out of the dark and give Ezzy a hard time regularly. ROFLMBO
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by birddogger » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:27 pm

It was about time for one of these people to pop up again. And I also do not accept homework assignments, especially when it comes to researching propaganda and agendas.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by dog dr » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:30 am

I cant believe im gonna waste my time doing this, BUT... NJGriffNut, I just went thru every one of your posts, and not 1 time, NOT ONCE, have you provided a reliable, peer reviewed, scientific study or research to back up any of the claims you have made. Not even a POOR scientific reference! You have posted 2 links to FDA sites that either dont exist or cant be found. Not only that, but when folks disagree with you, instead of reinforcing your argument, you start telling them how stupid they are. Ezzy had to delete at least 1 of your posts due to inappropriate language. Look, you seem like someone who really enjoys their dogs, and Lord knows we need more dog owners who take actually take care of their dogs. But you will NOT find dogs anywhere that are better cared for than the ones that are owned by the people on this site. I have personally examined a few of them (yes, i am one of those greedy vets that take bribes to put product into clients hands), and I know what a healthy, happy dog looks like. You can feed your dog whatever you want, and there is nothing wrong with giving your opinion on what constitutes a healthy canine diet, but be able to back up your claims with real scientific evidence. AND, dont be a jerk about it.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by MonsterDad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:42 am

NJGriffNut wrote:I just wanted to give the forum a friendly heads up about not purchasing this Tractor Supply Co. house brand dog food. I know it is cheap, and the bag looks great- but it is dangerous, and has the potential to be deadly. I say that statement knowing just how serious the claim is.

Meat and bone meal, ground yellow corn, wheat middlings, ground wheat, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, color added (red #40, yellow #5, blue #2), L-lysine, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate..


Say what you want about an unnamed source of inferior protein as the first ingredient, and the fact that is is filled with corn, soy, and wheat.

It contains the known carcinogen BHA, the synthetic preservative

And the most heinous ingredient in dog food history- menadione bisodium sulfite

If you don't know your history- this vitamin complex is responsible for the thousands of pets that died in the 2007 recall.


If you feed this food, it is my recommendation that you change foods to ANY food that eliminates BHA and Menadione Sodium Bisulfite

I don't have a horse in this race- but this food has very dangerous ingredients in it.

I wouldn't buy this food either but I think you are confusing Menadione Sodium Bisulfite with Melamine. Chinese ingredients were laced with Melamine to falsely boost the protein content of some ingredients. That is what caused the recall and deaths.

MSB has been used for over 50 years in animal food.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by NJGriffNut » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:22 am

Monster- thank you for correcting me. I was wrong between the two. NO doubt about it. I'm not too big to admit it either, or too big to admit it was a big discrepancy. I did edit that statement out of my original post so as not to give the wrong impression. It's been a long 2 days as my oldest dog was sick, and I was up last night thinking he was dying.


With that said:

The Material Safety Data sheet on Menadione-sodium bisulfite states: “The substance is toxic
to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.”

BHA
Enhanced stomach and urinary bladder carcinogenesis.
Causes squamous-cell carcinomas in stomachs.
(Cancers of this type are among the most lethal and fastest acting, the swiftest effects being seen among animals with light colored fur.

---
The take away of this post is with menadione (synthetic vitamin k) and BHA though. The food could easily be made more safe by excluding BHA in exchange for mixed tocopherals, and every other form of vitamin k is safer. It wouldn't cost them much more to do so.

I know this is a forum with a general membership probably based in the south and midwest, and well things are different from my neck of the woods. I personally wouldn't feed a food with corn, wheat, soy, or by products, but I also understand that many dogs have done well on those foods. I also know that ingredient quality even on the premium "foods" are still only "feed" grade and that advertising goes along way to convince people otherwise. With that said- all uber premium foods aren't without their own problems and concerns. Most dogs don't need 42% protein that Orijen has, and the majority of the grain free foods are fed more for peace of mind for the owner, than for actual nutritional requirements for the dog. We are also seeing more and more sensitivities and allergies occuring with potato and sweet potato (the original grain replacements).

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Doc E » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:06 am

I think that many of us (me included) prefer to err on the side of caution.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by nanney1 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:30 am

NJGriffNut wrote:I just wanted to give the forum a friendly heads up about not purchasing this Tractor Supply Co. house brand dog food. I know it is cheap, and the bag looks great- but it is dangerous, and has the potential to be deadly. I say that statement knowing just how serious the claim is.

Meat and bone meal, ground yellow corn, wheat middlings, ground wheat, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), corn gluten meal, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, color added (red #40, yellow #5, blue #2), L-lysine, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate..


Say what you want about an unnamed source of inferior protein as the first ingredient, and the fact that is is filled with corn, soy, and wheat.

It contains the known carcinogen BHA, the synthetic preservative

And the most heinous ingredient in dog food history- menadione bisodium sulfite



If you feed this food, it is my recommendation that you change foods to ANY food that eliminates BHA and Menadione Sodium Bisulfite

I don't have a horse in this race- but this food has very dangerous ingredients in it.
Fed it for months. No issues. Tried the blue bag for about six months and then tried the green bag for another 4 months or so. No issues. Greatest food ever, probably not. Worst food ever, hardly. Dogs did fine, and noticed no changes or differences. The two local TSC's in my area sell tons of the blue, green and yellow bags.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:22 am

Most dogs don't need 42% protein that Orijen has, and the majority of the grain free foods are fed more for peace of mind for the owner, than for actual nutritional requirements for the dog. We are also seeing more and more sensitivities and allergies occuring with potato and sweet potato (the original grain replacements).
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As I am sure most of you know that the 42% figure is just the percent of protein in the feed. It does not have anything to do with how much the dog is consuming or how much a dog needs on a daily basis. Too often we see that figure and have the same reaction that was expressed that the dog doesn't need that much. How much protein or any other ingredient is determined by how much the dog is eating and not by the percent that the feed contains.

It is a well researched fact that food allergies are quite rare but the few that have been discovered are over 90% caused by a protein source and not a bland carbohydrate source. And it is also well researched that corn and other vegetable matter make up an important part of a dog diet in the wild as well as in the home. For a matter of fact, wolves and other wild animals often have problems leading to early death because they don't eat enough vegetable matter. Well balanced and in moderation are two very old and time tested axioms of good health as well as practical every other aspect of life.

One other thing, to err on the side of caution is not a bad thing unless there is nothing to be cautious about, then it is far better to not err at all. There seems to be two types of people, one that will do things to help you and then those that will do things to make themselves feel good.
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by MonsterDad » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:53 pm

Higher protein foods using animal ingredients and not corn gluten and pea protein are better quality foods. Whether people find value in them is another issue. It would be better to use higher protein feeds with higher fat and feed less than try to make those nutrients up by using lower grade products and feeding a lot more.

Dogs have no use for carbohydrates so it makes sense to minimize or eliminate them.

Low quality foods with lots of carbohydrate cause dental problems in dogs, and that expense is far greater than the differential in the price of a good food versus a bad food.

Again, it is a matter of choice but the numbers over the years support using better feed products.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:27 pm

My question is this. What is the first ingredient? Meat and bone meal. Could be 5% meat and 95% bone meal. This food could be 90% Bone meal<corn and wheat. Not what I would feed my dogs............................Cj

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:49 pm

cjhills wrote:My question is this. What is the first ingredient? Meat and bone meal. Could be 5% meat and 95% bone meal. This food could be 90% Bone meal<corn and wheat. Not what I would feed my dogs............................Cj
I really hope you know better than that. Meat and Bone Meal, like every other ingredient as well as complete products have to meet the guaranteed specifications for that product or it can't be labeled or sold as such. What the title does indicate it is meat and bone ground up and not just Meat. It is a better product for most things since it has a much higher percentage of both calcium and phosphorus than just meat meal of any kind. That is why it has been used for years in feed manufacturing of all kinds.

If you will stop and think about it, tell us how a feed manufacturer can guarantee anything on the label if the ingredients they use are not uniform as well as guaranteed also. This is just another example of something someone has been told and they didn't stop to even think if it was true or not. So much of the misinformation about dog food is things you should know can't be true if you just stop and think about them.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:38 pm

These anti-dog food rants wouldn't bother me, were not for the evangelical nature, just like global warming, GMO, gluten, vaccines, autism, over-population, etc. those that are true believers are compelled to convert everyone to their way of thinking. If we don't immediately agree and take up the cause, we are dumb and unworthy.

They are free to believe and behave as they wish, just please allow me to do the same.

Neil

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:My question is this. What is the first ingredient? Meat and bone meal. Could be 5% meat and 95% bone meal. This food could be 90% Bone meal<corn and wheat. Not what I would feed my dogs............................Cj
I really hope you know better than that. Meat and Bone Meal, like every other ingredient as well as complete products have to meet the guaranteed specifications for that product or it can't be labeled or sold as such. What the title does indicate it is meat and bone ground up and not just Meat. It is a better product for most things since it has a much higher percentage of both calcium and phosphorus than just meat meal of any kind. That is why it has been used for years in feed manufacturing of all kinds.

If you will stop and think about it, tell us how a feed manufacturer can guarantee anything on the label if the ingredients they use are not uniform as well as guaranteed also. This is just another example of something someone has been told and they didn't stop to even think if it was true or not. So much of the misinformation about dog food is things you should know can't be true if you just stop and think about them.

Ezzy
I know you know better than that. Have you ever seen another dog food, which is not made by this company, which has a first ingredient called meat and bonemeal. Since you are the expert Tell us what the guaranteed specifications for a product called meat and bonemeal. keep in mind this is listed as one ingredient. Not meat first and bonemeal second. How do we know how much is meat and how much bonemeal. I just would not feed that food. I know it is really cheap. But it is not what I want for my dogs and I believe it is lower in Fat and protein than any performance dog food. I think 23/17. I have seen the same recipe under the name Hi-Standard Dog Food. I think the price was $23 for 50 pounds. personally I think it is junk and looks like squirrel food. but it is cheap......................Cj

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by birddogger » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:04 pm

FWIW, years ago I fed the cheapest off brand dog food I could find. I didn't even know what the ingredients were because I never read them. The dogs did just fine. I don't know anything about this brand of dog food, but it is probably a better quality food than what we had to choose from back then. There was also a time when there was no commercial food and we just fed whatever we could scrape together. Dogs still did fine.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Sharon » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:13 pm

birddogger wrote:FWIW, years ago I fed the cheapest off brand dog food I could find. I didn't even know what the ingredients were because I never read them. The dogs did just fine. I don't know anything about this brand of dog food, but it is probably a better quality food than what we had to choose from back then. There was also a time when there was no commercial food and we just fed whatever we could scrape together. Dogs still did fine.

Charlie
Exactly.
When my Dad lost his job and we were poor ( no welfare , food banks then ), my Dad was still hunting /training beagles. On Fridays , he'd go to the food trucks that visited construction sites and pick up the left - over food that couldn't be used the next week - meat pies, dried - up sandwiches, salads, raisin buns, soups, veggies , getting - old fruit etc.
We ate it and the dogs ate it. We all did just fine. We all looked healthy , had nice coats and lots of energy. :)

There's a food obsession in our countries with people food and dog food. Sad .

PS Can't stomach a meat pie anymore though. :)
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:13 pm

cjhills wrote: I know you know better than that. Have you ever seen another dog food, which is not made by this company, which has a first ingredient called meat and bonemeal. Since you are the expert Tell us what the guaranteed specifications for a product called meat and bonemeal. keep in mind this is listed as one ingredient. Not meat first and bonemeal second. How do we know how much is meat and how much bonemeal. I just would not feed that food. I know it is really cheap. But it is not what I want for my dogs and I believe it is lower in Fat and protein than any performance dog food. I think 23/17. I have seen the same recipe under the name Hi-Standard Dog Food. I think the price was $23 for 50 pounds. personally I think it is junk and looks like squirrel food. but it is cheap......................Cj
I am not going to waste my time looking up the specs for it but most of it is a 50% Protein. You can buy specialty product that is higher and there is some you can find that is 33 to 55 % if you look for it but that is not commonly sold on the open market. The cost today is running from 500 to 800 per ton or very close to that.

How much meat and how much bone is immaterial as long as it meets the guaranteed level of the nutrients. And of course that dictates how much meat and bone is used to meet those requirements. I don't recall ever seeing a dog turn it's nose up at the mention of meat and bone meal, but we also know that they won't turn down week old road kill, horse apples, or the cats litter box when given their choice. So just so you know, I think it is OK for you to not feed this feed , as I am not using it either. However, if my dogs get to make the decision they would probably vote for something much worse in our mind, so will continue to feed another feed that a few of you would turn your nose up at but the dogs and I have come to the agreement we are going to compromise and they are going to eat a poorly formulated feed that is much better than they would eat if I didn't have a vote in this whole scenario. And sadly , I feel pretty good about what I am feeding and they are eating. Think they do to since they have never had to see a vet for any sickness in their eighteen years.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by brdhntr » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:44 pm

You get what you pay for, not always but more so that getting more than you pay for. I know a guy who eats frozen pizza every day and he does just fine. There are so many variables when it comes to assessing health there is no way that most dog owners truly know the real health of their dogs.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by cjhills » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:24 am

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:My question is this. What is the first ingredient? Meat and bone meal. Could be 5% meat and 95% bone meal. This food could be 90% Bone meal<corn and wheat. Not what I would feed my dogs............................Cj
I really hope you know better than that. Meat and Bone Meal, like every other ingredient as well as complete products have to meet the guaranteed specifications for that product or it can't be labeled or sold as such. What the title does indicate it is meat and bone ground up and not just Meat. It is a better product for most things since it has a much higher percentage of both calcium and phosphorus than just meat meal of any kind. That is why it has been used for years in feed manufacturing of all kinds.

If you will stop and think about it, tell us how a feed manufacturer can guarantee anything on the label if the ingredients they use are not uniform as well as guaranteed also. This is just another example of something someone has been told and they didn't stop to even think if it was true or not. So much of the misinformation about dog food is things you should know can't be true if you just stop and think about them.

Ezzy
How would I ,you or anyone else know whether or not a product meets the guaranteed specs for that product. When we do not have a clue what the guaranteed specs are. I do not believe meat has to be 50% protein to be labeled meat. Both Calcium and Phosphorus can be over done.
If you stop to think about it, the ingredients are listed in the order of quantity by weight before they are processed. Meat is around 76% water, ground dry Bonemeal is around 11% water. By listing meat and bonemeal as one ingredient you greatly reduce the amount of meat required to make up your first ingredient. If you mix a half each mixture and cook it, some where between 50% to 60% of the weight of the meat will evaporate and about 5% of the bonemeal weight will evaporate. So you lose about 50 to 60 % of your weight and the mixture you have left is about 25% meat and 75% bone meal. That is the reason for listing meat and bone meal as one ingredient and it is false and misleading. After processing corn is much more likely to be the no.1 ingredient and wheat is likely second. If they listed meat alone it would be A distant third or fourth behind bonemeal. That is what is wrong with dog food labeling and why chicken meal is far superior to real chicken..........Cj

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Doc E » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:54 am

IMO, any meat meal (chicken beef, lamb etc) as a first ingredient is markedly better than if it is not a meal.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by bossman » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:05 pm

I have slowed down on my posting because of "threads" like this (going back to the "lemon colored GSP puppy" fiasco). But hate not to visit the Forum, too many really good people. IMO, using words like "deadly" and "dangerous' without educational or scientific support is simply irresponsible in my opinion. Never fed the food, don't plan on feeding the food. I simply try to buy the best food I can afford that seems to be right for the dogs and have had bird dogs for 45 years. Many good responses to the original post; Ezzy, Sharon, Charlie, dog dr, Doc E and Neil to mention a few. Well anyway, got to run down to a major sporting goods store. Having a sale on some dog food in a really cool looking bag. :roll:
Last edited by bossman on Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by BVK » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:49 pm

Ezzy wrote: Both serve a purpose and are considered safe since the toxicity level is more than a 1000 tines normal daily use. Can't even begin to tell you how many products fall into that range that we all use.

Some homework for you Ezzy....Who deems this, or any toxicity level safe? The EPA or some other government entity who is bought and paid for? You are certainly farming mushrooms if you do not believe that anything can be "considered safe" for a price. Because we all ingest these and so many more toxins does not certainly default any of them as "safe". We are poisoning the environment,food chain, food, and water supply (ourselves not to mention our four legged companions) at an alarming rate due to the fact that someone deems these toxic material levels "safe"! Oh yeah, save your standard "conspiracy theory" comeback for this, or anyone who happens to disagree with your "all knowing" brilliance!

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:14 pm

BVK wrote:Ezzy wrote: Both serve a purpose and are considered safe since the toxicity level is more than a 1000 tines normal daily use. Can't even begin to tell you how many products fall into that range that we all use.

Some homework for you Ezzy....Who deems this, or any toxicity level safe? The EPA or some other government entity who is bought and paid for? You are certainly farming mushrooms if you do not believe that anything can be "considered safe" for a price. Because we all ingest these and so many more toxins does not certainly default any of them as "safe". We are poisoning the environment,food chain, food, and water supply (ourselves not to mention our four legged companions) at an alarming rate due to the fact that someone deems these toxic material levels "safe"! Oh yeah, save your standard "conspiracy theory" comeback for this, or anyone who happens to disagree with your "all knowing" brilliance!
Thank you for your inquiry. Always nice to have a conversation with someone wanting to learn. But I am concerned when you pretty much said you know it all and I shouldn't even attempt to tell you how things work. So guess I will have to pass on this one since there is nothing anyone could tell that you would believe. Has to be wonderful to know you are smarter than "all knowing" brilliance to quote you.
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:20 pm

BVK wrote:Ezzy wrote: Both serve a purpose and are considered safe since the toxicity level is more than a 1000 tines normal daily use. Can't even begin to tell you how many products fall into that range that we all use.

Some homework for you Ezzy....Who deems this, or any toxicity level safe? The EPA or some other government entity who is bought and paid for? You are certainly farming mushrooms if you do not believe that anything can be "considered safe" for a price. Because we all ingest these and so many more toxins does not certainly default any of them as "safe". We are poisoning the environment,food chain, food, and water supply (ourselves not to mention our four legged companions) at an alarming rate due to the fact that someone deems these toxic material levels "safe"! Oh yeah, save your standard "conspiracy theory" comeback for this, or anyone who happens to disagree with your "all knowing" brilliance!
I had no idea the EPA was bought and paid for, here I thought they were a group of misguided idealistic leftists making unrealistic rules for no real purpose. This is good to know. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:24 pm

BVK wrote:... The EPA or some other government entity who is bought and paid for? ...
:P I think that if that were so then the dreaded Big Coal would have put paid to MTR worries.
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by frontline » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:26 am

It's a shame that some people actually think this food is acceptable. I don't have time to post numerous studies showing all the downfalls of low grade foods but I will mention a couple of things should someone care to research on their own.

Meat and bone meal is probably the most controversial of the ingredients listed and is considered a low grade ingredient. Meals in this category can come from renderer's that accept and collect animals that are so called 4D animals (dead, dying, diseased, disabled). Surely you've heard of this. Meals in this category are also known to contain euthanized pets and livestock (along with flea collars, toxic pesticides, ID tags and drugs), restaurant grease, unsold grocery store meat (still in their plastic and styrofoam wrappings) etc. There used to be graphic undercover videos on the web showing dogs (with collars/tags on) getting ground up, hard to find now. This video still remains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuoSxSJ94RY

During the 1990's there was much talk about pentobarbitol loosing it's effectiveness for anesthesia in dogs. The CVM, Center for Veterinary Medicine (part of the FDA) conducted it's research and found pentobarbitol in dog food as the cause and the source was from euthanized animals that were rendered and used in pet food. The foods that had the highest level of this drug was.....meat and bone meal.

Some dog foods have toxic levels of Fluoride putting your dog at risk. "Eight major national brands marketed for both puppies and adults contained fluoride in amounts between 1.6 and 2.5 times higher than the Environmental Protection Agency's maximum legal dose in drinking water, and higher than amounts associated with bone cancer in young boys in a 2006 study by Harvard scientists (Bassin 2006). All 8 brands contain bone meal and animal byproducts, the likely source of the fluoride contamination."
http://www.ewg.org/research/dog-food-co ... ide-levels

Never feel bad for a dog that survives on scraps from the family, these lucky dogs are eating human grade food and are very healthy.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:59 pm

Then why single out one brand?

And you are flat wrong, field trial dogs cannot perform at top levels on table scraps.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:43 pm

This is what happens when you have an agenda rather than trying to inform people But it is hard when you really don't understand the whole manufacturing and regulatory process to do anything else.
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ACooper » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:26 pm

Why do the dog food trolls come in waves? Seriously take your dog food posts over to dogfoodadvisor people there will agree with you.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:45 pm

ACooper wrote:Why do the dog food trolls come in waves? Seriously take your dog food posts over to dogfoodadvisor people there will agree with you.
I really don't care what they feed their dogs, why are they compelled to convert us?

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by frontline » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:30 pm

Lol, the reading comprehension skills on this forum leaves much to be desired.

I was not the one to single out this brand but I did call out meat-and-bone-meal. I didn't say anything about performance "at top level" on table scraps either, where did you get that Neil? The type of activity your dog engages in will determine what food he will perform best on, sprinting type activities will have different food requirements than endurance type activities.

And what agenda do you think I have Ezzy? Was I pushing something? Nope, no agenda, not at all. FYI, manufacturing and regulatory process has nothing to do with fluoride, lead and toxic metals in bone meal. I think you missed the point.

FYI, I am not anti grain nor pro grain-free. I don't push any foods or believe one food, or any one way of feeding, is right for all dogs. Good health and longevity for my dogs is what my goal is. I'm not looking for people to agree with me and I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone to anything, just sharing what I know. If you have a problem with that, don't read my posts.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ACooper » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:35 am

frontline wrote:Lol, the reading comprehension skills on this forum leaves much to be desired.

I was not the one to single out this brand but I did call out meat-and-bone-meal. I didn't say anything about performance "at top level" on table scraps either, where did you get that Neil? The type of activity your dog engages in will determine what food he will perform best on, sprinting type activities will have different food requirements than endurance type activities.

And what agenda do you think I have Ezzy? Was I pushing something? Nope, no agenda, not at all. FYI, manufacturing and regulatory process has nothing to do with fluoride, lead and toxic metals in bone meal. I think you missed the point.

FYI, I am not anti grain nor pro grain-free. I don't push any foods or believe one food, or any one way of feeding, is right for all dogs. Good health and longevity for my dogs is what my goal is. I'm not looking for people to agree with me and I'm certainly not trying to convert anyone to anything, just sharing what I know. If you have a problem with that, don't read my posts.

The problem is that you obviously lack social skills to recognize that NO ONE cares what you feed. We also do not care if you approve of what we feed. This is a tired topic get a clue.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ACooper » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:36 am

Neil wrote:
ACooper wrote:Why do the dog food trolls come in waves? Seriously take your dog food posts over to dogfoodadvisor people there will agree with you.
I really don't care what they feed their dogs, why are they compelled to convert us?
I have no idea Neil. I guess for no other reason than they are silly people?

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:41 am

frontline wrote:

Never feel bad for a dog that survives on scraps from the family, these lucky dogs are eating human grade food and are very healthy.

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by cjhills » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:14 am

Always wonder why the people who say they don't care What anybody feeds are the ones who protest and insult so much.
You are making this forum a joke. Ever notice how many really knowledgeable people no longer are post on here........................Cj

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:11 am

cjhills wrote:Always wonder why the people who say they don't care What anybody feeds are the ones who protest and insult so much.
You are making this forum a joke. Ever notice how many really knowledgeable people no longer are post on here........................Cj
Does that mean neither you or I are knowledgeable?
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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by frontline » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:47 am

I guess no one posts here because of comments like ACooper, Neil and cjhills posted.

You're in the nutrition section yet complaining about food threads being a tired topic... and you don't have a clue? Why do we care that YOU thnk food is a tired topic? My post had information concerning the topic where as your posts are complaining ABOUT the topic.

If you want to refute what I said then post a study or article that does so. If you attack me on a personal level instead of the information contained in my post then I will defend myself. You are making this forum a joke. If you don't have something to contribute to the topic stop criticizing those that do. Maybe you should re-read what kninebirddog said at the top of this forum.

"In lieu of varying opinions on Dog food and nutritional posts this is a warning, Posts will be quickly shut down if they remotely begin to change into anything other then what the original poster suggested or asked.

If you have what you think can help a person learn, Great , post it and leave it for the other person to read and find out if it is just a marketing ploy or if it something they find educational.

Any post that plummets to a poster that has nothing of intelligence to offer other then name calling that person first offense will get a 2 week Time out and other posts replying to that name caller will be deleted, In other words it is best at that point to ignore the instigator. PS If someone replies back with the same lack of tact they to might find themselves in time out also."

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Re: Retriever Dog Food- DO NOT PURCHASE

Post by Neil » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 am

First I refer you to the title of the thread and the opening post, and do not see that as helpful.

Secondly, are you going to defend your quote below. I am used to people not reading my posts, but you would think you would be familiar with your own.

And in closing, it was never my intention to personally attack you.


Neil wrote:
frontline wrote:

Never feel bad for a dog that survives on scraps from the family, these lucky dogs are eating human grade food and are very healthy.

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