Fecal Incontenance, I need the wisdom found here.

[GL]

This will be long but I want to explain it in detail and ask for the collective wisdom from those who might have experienced this problem. Please forgive any technical misspellings.

My Female Brittany is now 7+ years old and is very healthy, very active and in wonderful physical condition. Other than having a severe case of Puppy Strangles early on, she has been great. The forum member here helped me extensively back then and my girl would most likely have died without the wisdom and advice from members here. The vets just had no clue and treated her as an experiment as she slowly sank to near death. I am pretty sure a search of old threads could bring up what me and Goldy went through and all the help we got from the members here that saved her life.

On to the current and on going problem. Fecal Incontinence or what I am calling Poop Pebbles.

At about 4 years old we finally decided we had no desire to breed her and had her spayed. There were no issues with that procedure and she recovered quickly. A few months later I began to find small bits of feces every now and then and just assumed these were cling ons that got stuck on her hairs and dropped off in the house after doing her business. These bits are a little larger than deer droppings and always round, kind of like a large chocolate peanut M&M. They seem to happen after the dog has been sleeping and jumps off her bed. She does not even notice that a pebble has dropped out but I have watched for them intently. I have actually been walking behind her when it happened.

I asked a while back and the advice was to change her diet which of course I have done numerous times to no avail, it still happens no matter what I feed her. She is now on dog food called Taste of the Wild with roasted Bison and Venison and she loves it. She is fed at will and is not a chow hound nor is she at all over weight. She gets plenty of good exercise every week and is very active. I see to it.

She has been to the Vet numerous times and had a few digital rectal exams that show no issues there. She has been checked for worms twice a year every year and rarely ever has any but round and tapes have been found a couple times and immediately eradicated. The pebbles persist.

I feel as though I am wasting good money with my current vet who seems to have to be pushed to find what is causing this problem. I have considered there might be a possibility that during the spaying procedure a muscle or nerve in that region might have been nicked or compromised in some way or maybe it is some sort of irregular attachment of internal parts during the healing process or even some scar tissue putting pressure on her bowls and creating some sort of pocket where these pebbles get caught near the end of the tract. The Vet says no way to any of my thoughts. He now wants to do a full X Ray scan that will be both expensive and even he says will likely not show any definitive answers. To be honest he does not seem all that interested in finding the problem and has even mentioned we may want to put her down if we can't live with this problem! Time for a different Vet I think but my local choices are very limited here and this type of nonchalant attitude seems to be rampant with the local pet hospitals in this general area. I need a real Vet and have even considered taking her up to Cornell University at great expense.

Worms is another of the issues I have considered. Generally the standard tests look for round, whip, tape and hook worms as well as Ghiardia. What if she might have some exotic other type not normally found or even looked for? I have just about every animal known to this area frequenting our yard on a daily basis including coyote, fox, three types of squirrels, mice, rabbits, mink, weasels, deer, bear, turkey, Ferrel cats and many more. Might one of those critters have some exotic parasite that she could have picked up? I am simply tossing stuff out at this point in the hope that something might stick or someone here might have some other ideas. I have stepped on the pebbles, sat on them and at this point I am not able to trust her in the car or truck and certainly not in anyone elses home. I need to find a solution if one can be found but I am at my wits end and my co pilot is suffering from a problem she has absolutely no control over.

I am willing to listen and to try just about anything at this point and would love to hear if any others have experienced similar problems to this and if a correction has been found. Leaving my best friend at home when she is ready and begging to come along is making us both rather sad these days.

Thanks

GaryL

[shags]

It might be more productive in the long run to take your dog to a vet school for a good workup. IME the procedures are no more expensive than at my regular vet's place. BUT - the vet school can do a lot more diagnostic work which can run up your bill. When I've had my animals at Ohio State, we were always informed of the choices for the next step in the process, and the price for each, so we could make informed decisions and not be shocked at the payment desk.

Is your dog a natural bob? In some animals the natural bob causes problems with spinal nerves that control bladder and bowel function.

Long ago we had a dog who had a spinal cord injury. He eventually regained the use of his rear legs and could move his tail and all was well for several years. But as he got older he became incontinent, both bladder amd bowel.

[GL]

You lost me on the "Natural Bob" thing but I will search that out.

As far as taking my dog to the Cornell university it has very little to do with the cost of procedures and everything to do with the travel back and forth as it is an entire days trip just getting to and from. As we are all well aware in our own personal health issue, they tend to run us through the wringer with a test here today and another there a couple weeks later and yet six more just to tell us we have a freckle and not to worry until it becomes a deadly form of cancer found too late to treat. If I go to my doctor because all of a sudden I am pooping my pants I want an answer real fast but I seem to be unable to get that for my dog who is every bit a loved member of my family.

GL

[shags]

A dog born with a short tail is a natural bob as opposed to having been docked.

IME the vet school is very cooperative in scheduling out of town clients. We had an early morning consult, were free to hang out in the waiting area or to wander around town while the animals underwent testing procedures, and we had answers by the afternoon. Communication by text or phone worked very well. Our horse needed surgery, and scheduling was handled very conveniently.

Some strange or complex cases need more extensive testing with some sophisticated equipment, otherwise it's the practitioner's best guess.

Best of luck with your dog.

[ezzy333]

You lost me on the "Natural Bob" thing but I will search that out.

As far as taking my dog to the Cornell university it has very little to do with the cost of procedures and everything to do with the travel back and forth as it is an entire days trip just getting to and from. As we are all well aware in our own personal health issue, they tend to run us through the wringer with a test here today and another there a couple weeks later and yet six more just to tell us we have a freckle and not to worry until it becomes a deadly form of cancer found too late to treat. If I go to my doctor because all of a sudden I am pooping my pants I want an answer real fast but I seem to be unable to get that for my dog who is every bit a loved member of my family.

GL

I think your solution just may be to become a Doctor. When you get your problem cured you can maybe straighten the whole fraternity out and stop all of the running around we have to do before we die of cancer.

[GL]

Thanks Shags, that is what I suspected on Natural Bob but I have no way of knowing since all the tails were snipped long before the litter was released. The breeder had no clue what I was talking about and would not remember almost 8 years out anyway. She is a Brit and I think most have tails docked early.

I think I have to give up on my local Vet and go directly to the University for the answers I need. When she came down with the strangles the Vets here jerked me around until I was ready to choke them and I finally went to my own GP on the advice from folks here and got Prednisone. My Vet would have kept her over night and called me in the morning when she was stiff. She recovered from near death in just a couple days and has been fine ever since.

GL

[GL]

You lost me on the "Natural Bob" thing but I will search that out.

As far as taking my dog to the Cornell university it has very little to do with the cost of procedures and everything to do with the travel back and forth as it is an entire days trip just getting to and from. As we are all well aware in our own personal health issue, they tend to run us through the wringer with a test here today and another there a couple weeks later and yet six more just to tell us we have a freckle and not to worry until it becomes a deadly form of cancer found too late to treat. If I go to my doctor because all of a sudden I am pooping my pants I want an answer real fast but I seem to be unable to get that for my dog who is every bit a loved member of my family.

GL

I think your solution just may be to become a Doctor. When you get your problem cured you can maybe straighten the whole fraternity out and stop all of the running around we have to do before we die of cancer.

WOW Ezzy, I had not realized you've become so cranky! You are the very one here I credit with saving her life from the strangles and now you have nothing to offer but arrogance. Sorry I asked.

GL

[ezzy333]

Must be my advanced age. Sorry, but I was just responding to your pessimistic post about Vets and Doctors and all they make us go through before we are told we have cancer that can't be cured. I will try to do better if you will join me. I just know there are many things that are almost impossible to diagnose with people and much harder with our dogs that won't tell us how they feel or where it hurts. I kind of think most of the Vets and Doctors are doing the best they can and in most cases that is great.

I find most people are pretty nice and helpful, inspite of the news that says most have gone to heck in a hand basket, though we may be heading in that direction.

Ezzy

[GL]

Must be my advanced age. Sorry, but I was just responding to your pessimistic post about Vets and Doctors and all they make us go through before we are told we have cancer that can't be cured. I will try to do better if you will join me. I just know there are many things that are almost impossible to diagnose with people and much harder with our dogs that won't tell us how they feel or where it hurts. I kind of think most of the Vets and Doctors are doing the best they can and in most cases that is great.

I find most people are pretty nice and helpful, inspite of the news that says most have gone to heck in a hand basket, though we may be heading in that direction.

Ezzy

OK Ezzy, What you are missing in my ramblings is the frustrations I am going through and the love I have for my dog. Sure I am pessimistic but only after spending a couple thousand dollars with out any answers. I just buried a good friend who the VA should have and probably could have saved if they had gotten off their "bleep" so my pessimism comes from reality.

GL

[Doc E]

WOW Ezzy, I had not realized you've become so cranky! You are the very one here I credit with saving her life from the strangles and now you have nothing to offer but arrogance. Sorry I asked.

GL

No kidding ! ! !
If any one of the rest of us had posted those words, we would have been "banned for life".
So, ezzy, if I were a moderator, you would be OUT OF HERE ! ! !
You can certainly be a jerk at times. Maybe you should cut back on the alcohol or get back on your meds.

.

[kninebirddog]

Hi GL Has it been 8 years since the puppy strangles issue?

Somethings one could consider is maybe irritable bowels,
and yes urinary incontinence is common in altered animals

How are the normal stools?

[Sharon]

[quote="Doc E
No kidding ! ! !
If any one of the rest of us had posted those words, we would have been "banned for life".
So, ezzy, if I were a moderator, you would be OUT OF HERE ! ! !
You can certainly be a jerk at times. Maybe you should cut back on the alcohol or get back on your meds.
.[/quote]
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ezzy apologized and his comment wasn't near as bad as what I just read from you. Now it's your turn to apologize. Sh
..................
"Must be my advanced age. Sorry, but I was just responding to your pessimistic post about Vets and Doctors and all they make us go through before we are told we have cancer that can't be cured. I will try to do better if you will join me. I just know there are many things that are almost impossible to diagnose with people and much harder with our dogs that won't tell us how they feel or where it hurts. I kind of think most of the Vets and Doctors are doing the best they can and in most cases that is great.

I find most people are pretty nice and helpful, inspite of the news that says most have gone to heck in a hand basket, though we may be heading in that direction." quote Ezzy

[GL]

Hi GL Has it been 8 years since the puppy strangles issue?

Somethings one could consider is maybe irritable bowels,
and yes urinary incontinence is common in altered animals

How are the normal stools?

Thank you K9, You are another whom I must credit with helping us through the Strangles back almost 8 years ago.

There is no Urinary incontinence at all. Just these annoying poop pebbles that seem to form at the tail pipe and drop out at will. I do not notice any difference in her normal stools but I do see that she has always had a bit of a hard time pinching off after her business is done. I think it is pretty normal that she contracts those muscles a few times afterwards making sure all is done. Vet claims she has good tone back there when he does the digital exams but each time he has announced there is fecal matter right there at the opening when he first inserts his finger. This is what causes me to think there could be some sort of blockage or something pressing on her bowl a bit further up the line. Kind of as if most stays back where it should but a small amount is able to slip by and hang right at the end. I think in humans we call the procedure I think could diagnose this is an Endoscopy but not sure they can do this with dogs. Kind of hard to get them to drink the nasty liquid necessary to totally evacuate the tract.

As Ezzy eluded, I should become a doctor. I did miss that calling but I also think there is a little doctor in all of us who own and care for our dogs so he was not that far off base. As an untrained dog owner all I can do is kick various thoughts around and pay close attention to what is going on with my dog. She can't tell me but quite honestly I don't believe she is in any pain or distress at all over this. She absolutely does not even flinch or even seem aware when it happens.

Here she is doing one of her favorite things!



Thanks for listening.

GL

[shags]

Why don't you ask your vet to xray the dog? if films show anything suspicious you can opt for more complex testing. Fecal incontinence can be caused by impingement on nerves in the spine and a picture can show that vertebrae are not in normal position; if needed then contrast studies can probably be done at Cornell. Normally back problems cause pain which you'd notice, but who knows if it's at a low level where a stoic dog won't demonstrate it? Xrays can pick up colon blockages and masses too.
Sometimes diet plays a part in being able to evacuate completely too. You might try a lower residue diet and see if that helps, or add more fiber as in some canned pumpkin to her meals. Whichever applies.
If you have lost faith in your current vet then go to a different one.

[dog dr]

Spaying can cause issues with urinary incontinence, but I have never heard it causing a problem with fecal incontinence. The nerves and muscles that are associated with the rectum shouldn't be involved in a spay procedure at all. Nothing wrong with getting a second opinion; however I would let your vet x-ray the dog, as that would be the next diagnostic step I would take as well. Yes, endoscopy is done in dogs, would definitely be an option, but x-ray would be a lot less invasive. Im not aware of any parasites that would cause the problem your seeing. Any intestinal parasite infection I have ever seen caused loose stool or diarrhea if there was a problem with the stool at all. Does she struggle with defecating other than the difficulty you already mentioned?? I guess what I mean is does she strain or have problems passing stool? Is the form and consistency of the stool normal (aside from the pebbles)? Does she know when shes dropping pebbles?

[GL]

Thank you Shags, good info I will heed.

Thanks DogDr. I was unaware that X rays could show soft tissue stuff like blockages but will schedule her for them tomorrow. She does not have loose stools or diarrhea but you bring up an interesting question regarding the form and consistency. It seems to me she has rather small in diameter stools for a dog her size, similar in size to cat scat, and it also seems like she does struggle a bit in passing them. When I take her on her exercise run she always goes about a half mile and has to go. This evacuation is quick and easy while when I observe her at home in her yard she tends to pace around quite a while searching for the right spot and then the function does seem to take quite a while as though she has to push hard followed by numerous contractions of her tail and rear muscles to make sure she is all finished. Unlike the GSPs I owned in the past which was always a 1, 2, 3 Go function that took seconds, with her it takes minutes and it always has since she was a Puppy. Could be she has a rather tight passageway down there so the X rays might show something. Back a couple years ago she did hurt herself pretty bad right in that area. Tried jumping into the water from my boat, lost her footing and slammed her rear on the gunnel. I know it hurt bad because she sank perelized and I had to jump in and grab her. Might have done some damage then but she seemed OK after laying down for a while and walking slow for the rest of that day. X rays are the plan and thank you all for the great advice. Will report back on any findings.

GL

[dog dr]

Thank you Shags, good info I will heed.

It seems to me she has rather small in diameter stools for a dog her size, similar in size to cat scat, and it also seems like she does struggle a bit in passing them.

To me that says either a space occupying mass that is making the colon/rectum smaller, or some sort of nerve issue. Maybe both. Hopefully you get an answer.

[GL]

X Rays tomorrow morning so I should have some indications when we get back. I did talk to my cousin who is a Vet out in Nebraska at length last night and he gave me some ideas but wants to hear if the films show anything abnormal first. He leans toward an issue in the second sacral vertebrate as a place to look hard.

Thank you.

GL

[zrp]

Thank you Shags, good info I will heed.

It seems to me she has rather small in diameter stools for a dog her size, similar in size to cat scat, and it also seems like she does struggle a bit in passing them.

To me that says either a space occupying mass that is making the colon/rectum smaller, or some sort of nerve issue. Maybe both. Hopefully you get an answer.

+1