Hip ratings

[mountaindogs]

Recently I have been looking at lab pedigrees. I have been told by every lab breeder to be careful as hip dysplasia is still an too frequent issue in the breed. So with that in mind I started looking at the vertical pedigrees on OFA of many of the GSP lines. The vertical pedigree shows hip rating stats for offspring and siblings also. Given that dysplastic hips will be rarely be reported there are still a LOT of "fair" rated hips showing up in GSPs also. In fact I'd say I saw even more than in the labs.
concerning
Please do the testing!

[Neil]

OFA is the best we have (while Penn Hip as its followers) it is far from perfect. I have seen dogs that failed never show symptoms of any kind and good break down at age 6. Follow it, but know it is flawed. Better to see the sire and dam in the Field, for that and a number of other reasons.

[cjhills]

According to OFA dogs with Fair hips are still within the breeding Standards. There is very little difference between Excellent, good and fair. If we could get results from full litters, a fair dog from a litter of all excellent siblings might be a safer bet than a excellent dog from a all fair litter. OFA has reduced Dysplastic hips in Labs and Goldens.
As Neil stated it is not perfect, but it is the best we have. Not sure that the systems are flawed. Most health tests are not perfect. No test can guarantee that a dog will not get Dysplasia. But excellent or good parents increase the chances of excellent or good puppies. It seems that more breeders are going away from x-rays and possibly some bad hips may be sneaking into the GSPs.
Some dogs get very good at dealing with the pain. I have seen dogs that show no signs in the field that show severe dysplasia when x-rayed.
With Penn Hip a dog which scores in the low to mid thirties would likely be a fair with OFA. This is not always the case for whatever reason.
Every breeder should test. We rarely have a x-ray that is not Excellent after many generations of testing...................CJ

[Montana]

I do Pennhip on my dogs these days. It's more expensive than OFA, but I think it gives a better picture of what's going on. OFA ratings are based on vets' opinions based on looking at one x-ray. I've had people tell me that they've had a dog fail, had it re-xrayed and pass the second time around. To do a Pennhip certification, a vet has to be certified by Pennhip so that it is done correctly. The rating is based on measurements taken as opposed to a vet's opinion and 3 x-rays are used as opposed to one by OFA. Also, with Pennhip a dog can be evaluated at a much younger age. Pennhip will evaluate as young as 4 months, although I wait until a dog is around a year old or so. With OFA you can do a pre-lim, but you can't get an actual certification until a dog is 2 years old.... I like knowing sooner than that.

Having said all of that, in my opinion far too much emphasis is put on hip evaluations. Too many people think that just because a dog has sound hips, clear eyes, etc. that it's automatically of breeding quality. I tell people that those clearances are the minimum requirement.....that the entire dog needs to be evaluated (brains, eagerness to please, overall conformation, hunting/retrieving desire, etc.). Also, we need to keep in mind that HD is not 100% hereditary. There are environmental factors to consider (how a pup is exercised, fed, etc.). If it were purely a genetic thing it would have been eliminated long ago.

[ezzy333]

I do Pennhip on my dogs these days. It's more expensive than OFA, but I think it gives a better picture of what's going on. OFA ratings are based on vets' opinions based on looking at one x-ray. I've had people tell me that they've had a dog fail, had it re-xrayed and pass the second time around. To do a Pennhip certification, a vet has to be certified by Pennhip so that it is done correctly. The rating is based on measurements taken as opposed to a vet's opinion and 3 x-rays are used as opposed to one by OFA. Also, with Pennhip a dog can be evaluated at a much younger age. Pennhip will evaluate as young as 4 months, although I wait until a dog is around a year old or so. With OFA you can do a pre-lim, but you can't get an actual certification until a dog is 2 years old.... I like knowing sooner than that.

Having said all of that, in my opinion far too much emphasis is put on hip evaluations. Too many people think that just because a dog has sound hips, clear eyes, etc. that it's automatically of breeding quality. I tell people that those clearances are the minimum requirement.....that the entire dog needs to be evaluated (brains, eagerness to please, overall conformation, hunting/retrieving desire, etc.). Also, we need to keep in mind that HD is not 100% hereditary. There are environmental factors to consider (how a pup is exercised, fed, etc.). If it were purely a genetic thing it would have been eliminated long ago.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion it would have been eliminated when the tests aren't 100% and some people don't bother to even use the tools we have such as x-ray or Pennhip. I do agree it isn't all genetic but if the genetics are right then the other stuff wouldn't be as critical.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

OFA is sent to 3 different vets that are OFA certified and the majority is the rating IE if a dogbgetsba Good from 2 Vets and an Excellent from the third vet they are recorded as OFA good ...you can call and get the results and even talk to dr Keller

One thing i dislike about Penn hip is itnpools all of the breed together thus dogs that are not in my dogs blood lines are included in the percentile which can change as more dogs are rated.

As stated neither none is perfect but one thing i do like about ofa it is a pass or fail dogs that don't pass shouldn't be Knowingly used.
Biggest thing I dislike about Penn hip is how a dog that would fail ofa would be used in a program clouding the breeding with numbers a pool of ever changing percentiles and no way to research dogs that are in your dogs pedigree

Bottom line is we will never get rid of hip dysplasia completely We Are Not Gods. Best we can do is show we are breeding dogs that pass .....breeding dogs that are healthy and in the bird dog world that both dam and sire have then traits you want to see in the pups. Like making a cake use good ingredients bake and having a good frosting doesn't hurt but a pretty frosting job isn't going to make a bad tasting cake, taste better.

[cjhills]

While it is very likely that there are other factors involved other than heredity, the breeds which were bred to run hard for many generations have very little Hip Dysplasia. Greyhounds and Alaskan sled dogs are two examples. Dysplastic dogs probably did not make it to breeding age............Cj

[kninebirddog]

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html

out of the 360 greyhounds that are in the OFA Database 35+ percent are excellent but like PENN HIP the excellent percent will change as more dogs are entered.
and FYI I personally had a female out of an Excellent female this gal could jump about as high as the kennel fence and could run when i had her pre limed she had no hip socket at all see attached as I do take pictures of the x rays and I do ask my vet and have as I have stated before call and talk to Dr Keller which he is a very interesting person to talk to spent over an hour on the phone a couple times. But point here is that with out this x ray one would have never guessed that she didn't have good hips by the way she jumps and runs,she still hunts hard today years later family that owns her now still havent had to medically do anything as she still isn't showing any clinical signs which she is about 9 years old.

I also had a male that he wasn't going to pass OFA he could run hard jump and never showed a clinical sign.

What I still find interesting the number one dog for HD is the Bulldog
One if the dogs that does have the best hips with the Numbers to stand behind the ratings is the SIBERIAN HUSKY with at the time of this post 17996 on file with 34% excellent and 2% Dysplastic

[Ms. Cage]

out of the 360 greyhounds that are in the OFA Database 35+ percent are excellent but like PENN HIP the excellent percent will change as more dogs are entered.

We OFA all our dogs With Penn Hip don't go by Percentile go with the measured numbers. The percentile will always change.

[ezzy333]

out of the 360 greyhounds that are in the OFA Database 35+ percent are excellent but like PENN HIP the excellent percent will change as more dogs are entered.

We OFA all our dogs With Penn Hip don't go by Percentile go with the measured numbers. The percentile will always change.

Amen The percentages do not tell you how good your dog is but instead just says how bad or good all of the other dogs are.

[cjhills]

The percentage of excellent hips in OFA does not necessarily change as more dogs are x-rayed. Unlike Penn Hip, OFA ratings are not based on percentages. Just on Radiologists readings. Penn Hip percentages encourage breeding dogs with mediocre hips. The mid .30 dogs would likely be fair in OFA.
The Bulldogs are genetic disasters. Because of their hips they cannot reproduce naturally, I believe all are bred by AI and delivered By caesarian Section......................

[Ms. Cage]

Penn Hip percentages encourage breeding dogs with mediocre hips. The mid .30 dogs would likely be fair in OFA.

I have to disagree. Penn Hip says .30 a dog will never develop HD. I don't think we could say that about a fair Hip. Our dog, JJ mothers hips were certified both ways. Penn hip, .33, .38 OFA Good. The last Penn. Hip cert. I saw about a year ago the dogs hips (GSP) were .32, .30. the dog fell into the 60% . With another sporting breed a .32, .30 would put you into the 90 percentile. My question is when is a dogs hips to tight ? My husband spent several hours on the phone with Penn Hip and could not get a answer.

[cjhills]

Penn Hip percentages encourage breeding dogs with mediocre hips. The mid .30 dogs would likely be fair in OFA.

I have to disagree. Penn Hip says .30 a dog will never develop HD. I don't think we could say that about a fair Hip. Our dog, JJ mothers hips were certified both ways. Penn hip, .33, .38 OFA Good. The last Penn. Hip cert. I saw about a year ago the dogs hips (GSP) were .32, .30. the dog fell into the 60% . With another sporting breed a .32, .30 would put you into the 90 percentile. My question is when is a dogs hips to tight ? My husband spent several hours on the phone with Penn Hip and could not get a answer.

Things may have changed since I had Penn Hip done. My male Rosco's First OFA was Fair. I did Penn Hip and OFA a year later He was .32 and .30 And His OFA was good. I do not remember what his % was. Is the higher % good or bad? I just can't remember. He did produce a number of Excellent pups.
I do not see how Penn Hip could say any dog would never get Dysplasia. I do not see how the hip joint could be to tight as long as it can Function

[Ms. Cage]

Is the higher % good or bad? I just can't remember.

The higher the % the better. The lower the measured number the better.

I do not see how Penn Hip could say any dog would never get Dysplasia.

That's the claim.

I do not see how the hip joint could be to tight as long as it can Function

Bone on bone.... I believe every joints needs X amount of cartilage to function properly ??

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Important to remember...there is no direct correlation between a PennHip measurement and an OFA rating. Each method evaluates a different aspect of the hip joint.

[cjhills]

Is the higher % good or bad? I just can't remember.

The higher the % the better. The lower the measured number the better.

I do not see how Penn Hip could say any dog would never get Dysplasia.

That's the claim.

I do not see how the hip joint could be to tight as long as it can Function

Bone on bone.... I believe every joints needs X amount of cartilage to function properly ??

That is a interesting concept. Not sure we could see the amount of cartilage on a radiograph. Cartilage is very thin, It would be difficult or impossible to measure.
I am pretty much convinced that breeding Excellent and Goods to Excellent and Goods begets more Excellent and Goods...............Cj