what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

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what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Sterndog » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:41 pm

When running field trials there are times your dog may have to run multiple times in one day. I am curious what people prefer as an energy suppliment for your dog between braces?
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:05 pm

Dogs run best on an empty stomach. Maltodextrin will help them recover after a hard day but otherwise the dogs energy will come from conditioning and what you fed yesterday or the day before.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Sterndog » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:14 pm

Is that the K-9 restart? So, that is not for energy but recovery correct?
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Gertie » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:21 pm

I feed mine just a little bit a couple hours before a hunt or trial (about 1/3 normal feeding). At the end of the day a good 30/20(ish) dog food and a warm comfortable place to get good rest are usually all the supplements they need. If you're running them for long periods and notice them slowing down there are also some doggie "power bar" type supplements out there that claim to help (a bite of your sandwich would probably do the same thing :wink: ). I also carry a little bit of honey in the event of an emergency like severe hypoglycemia. I have never seen this happen but have heard it's not uncommon when a dog is exercising hard for long periods. Sounds scary enough I figure it doesn't hurt to be prepared.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Fun dog » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Water!

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Gertie » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:48 pm

^^^ That too ^^^
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Neil » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:30 am

https://www.proplan.com/dogs/products/s ... edanalysis

Purina also sells one for recovery. Both are replacements for their old Performance Bars.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by luvthemud » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:04 am

Neil wrote:https://www.proplan.com/dogs/products/s ... edanalysis

Purina also sells one for recovery. Both are replacements for their old Performance Bars.

How hard are those Purina bars? I had some bars of another brand and the things were hard as a rock. I actually called the company and they said it was normal? I ended up throwing them out.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by reba » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:08 am

After a big run or on an extended hunting trip I give my dogs Glycocharge in their water, to restore glycogen stored in their muscles for energy. The dogs lap it up like chocolate milk.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by MonsterDad » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:59 am

Maltodextrin like Glycocharge can also be used before as well, as in early morning. The price of these products for dogs is much higher than for people, so go to Vitamin Shoppe or GNC and buy it.

I really would avoid food during exercise. There is metabolically no point.

Coconut fat is digested like a carbohydrate so that is also something good to use very early in the morning or the night before.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by polmaise » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:40 am

If you manage to bottle 'Stamina' ,give me a call . I'll buy a bottle.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Fun dog » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:32 pm

Glyco charge is an excellent product. It's a post exercise supplement to help the muscles regroup quicker. Great product to feed after exercise when you know you are going to have the dog out again the next day. Needs to be fed within a half hour of exercise. I'm not sure if it would help much in between events on the same day. I don't think it does much for the dog fed before the event. The best thing is to have your dog on the best food you can find twelve months a year and condition them properly. There is no supplement to take the place of hard work. What you do with your dog on trial day shouldn't be a whole lot different than any other day. Well, you might want to feed them earlier the day before. Dogs run best when not lugging around a meal in their guts. And don't forget the water! If you need a little something to get them to drink you can put some impact, put out by the same company as glyco charge, in the water or some energy pac. Both are a powder that mixes easily and the dogs love it.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Scott Linden » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:05 pm

Fun dog wrote:Glyco charge is an excellent product. It's a post exercise supplement to help the muscles regroup quicker. Great product to feed after exercise when you know you are going to have the dog out again the next day. Needs to be fed within a half hour of exercise. I'm not sure if it would help much in between events on the same day. I don't think it does much for the dog fed before the event. The best thing is to have your dog on the best food you can find twelve months a year and condition them properly. There is no supplement to take the place of hard work. What you do with your dog on trial day shouldn't be a whole lot different than any other day. Well, you might want to feed them earlier the day before. Dogs run best when not lugging around a meal in their guts. And don't forget the water! If you need a little something to get them to drink you can put some impact, put out by the same company as glyco charge, in the water or some energy pac. Both are a powder that mixes easily and the dogs love it.
Just to be clear, you add GlycoCharge to water, not food. The guys who invented it say the fat in any food will prevent the absorption of the maltodextrin in GlycoCharge.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Fun dog » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:05 pm

Yup, just mix with water.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:43 am

There have been multiple scientific studies that demonstrate that the optimal source of energy for sporting dogs is fat.

Not carbohydrates, not sugar, not sports drinks. All these starches are contra-indicated for optimum sporting dog performance.

"Good fats" are what dogs metabolize well. Good fats are critical to stamina, not sugar. This is not controversial in the field of scientific canine nutrition.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by luvthemud » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:27 pm

When my last dog showed signs of exhaustion in the field, my vet recommended giving a little pedialyte in his water. What are your guys' opinion on this? Good thing to do? I will say, it made him like drinking while hunting, which is something I struggled with.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:43 pm

Gatorade and things like pedialyte are not recommend by experts in the field of high performance canine nutrition. Dogs need adequate water and appropriate amounts of high quality fats (for energy) and protein (for muscle repair), not sugars or electrolytes.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:44 pm

Sterndog wrote:When running field trials there are times your dog may have to run multiple times in one day. I am curious what people prefer as an energy suppliment for your dog between braces?
I suspect that the best energy renewer would be the smell of a game bird.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by luvthemud » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:49 pm

Spy Car wrote:Gatorade and things like pedialyte are not recommend by experts in the field of high performance canine nutrition. Dogs need adequate water and appropriate amounts of high quality fats (for energy) and protein (for muscle repair), not sugars or electrolytes.

Bill
I suspect that adding the pedialyte was more to entice the dog to drink and stay hydrated due to the flavoring, but I could be mistaken :?:

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:58 pm

polmaise wrote:If you manage to bottle 'Stamina' ,give me a call . I'll buy a bottle.
:) Especially if you can mix it with a healthy dose of "heart'.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:33 pm

Spy Car wrote:There have been multiple scientific studies that demonstrate that the optimal source of energy for sporting dogs is fat.

Not carbohydrates, not sugar, not sports drinks. All these starches are contra-indicated for optimum sporting dog performance.

"Good fats" are what dogs metabolize well. Good fats are critical to stamina, not sugar. This is not controversial in the field of scientific canine nutrition.

Bill
You do understand that if the dogs system has not been properly accustomed to the burning of fat for energy that simply adding a tablespoon of lard will do little for them.
Science has shown that there is some use for other nutrients in aiding recovery after hard exercise such as glycogen supplement.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:39 pm

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote:There have been multiple scientific studies that demonstrate that the optimal source of energy for sporting dogs is fat.

Not carbohydrates, not sugar, not sports drinks. All these starches are contra-indicated for optimum sporting dog performance.

"Good fats" are what dogs metabolize well. Good fats are critical to stamina, not sugar. This is not controversial in the field of scientific canine nutrition.

Bill
You do understand that if the dogs system has not been properly accustomed to the burning of fat for energy that simply adding a tablespoon of lard will do little for them.
Science has shown that there is some use for other nutrients in aiding recovery after hard exercise such as glycogen supplement.

Do you have a citation for this assertion? It runs contrary to all the scientific evidence I've seen. Even industry sources agree that for energy dogs need appropriate fats, not sugar or carbs.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by slistoe » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:50 pm

Spy Car wrote:

Do you have a citation for this assertion? It runs contrary to all the scientific evidence I've seen. Even industry sources agree that for energy dogs need appropriate fats, not sugar or carbs.

Bill
That's funny. You need a citation? LOL

Dogs use glycogen for energy which they will metablolize in the normal manner as most animal species till they are subject to extremely high levels of exertion where their bodies will switch to burning fat more or less directly as an energy source. Unless they are burning greater than 6000 calories per day a normal diet of high fat content kibble will keep them adequately powered. Look it up yourself if you want citations - at least you will be able to find credible sources for my annotated version.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:08 pm

There is also a difference in what is used to produce a quick burst of speed or movement as to general steady running over a longer period.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:02 am

slistoe wrote: That's funny. You need a citation? LOL
Yes, I'd like a citation. That is the way scientific inquiry works. Much better way to go than hurling insults, or making uncorroborated statements. If you claim to be a man of science provide supporting evidence.
slistoe wrote:Dogs use glycogen for energy which they will metablolize in the normal manner as most animal species till they are subject to extremely high levels of exertion where their bodies will switch to burning fat more or less directly as an energy source. Unless they are burning greater than 6000 calories per day a normal diet of high fat content kibble will keep them adequately powered. Look it up yourself if you want citations - at least you will be able to find credible sources for my annotated version.
This assertion is refuted by the leading expert in canine sports nutrition, Dr Joseph Wakshlag, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine. He states:

Humans and dogs fuel exercise very differently. When we run, we start out burning mostly glycogen, which is stored carbohydrates. Dogs don’t, partly because they have more mitochondria in their muscles than we do. Dogs burn fat as their primary endurance fuel, and carbohydrates are not very important for them.

This is in direct contradiction to what you've written above.

He also said:

Fat is the fuel for performance dogs.

Athletic dogs need protein to build and maintain muscle. In general, their diet should consist of at least 25 percent protein, preferably from meat. In one study, dogs fed plant-based soy protein experienced far more musculoskeletal injuries than dogs consuming meat protein.

My advice would be to make sure that water is available if you’ll be running with your dog for more than 30 minutes. But don’t share your Gatorade. Dogs don’t need carbohydrates or electrolytes, and the only study I know of that tested sports drinks in dogs found that the main outcome was gastrointestinal distress.


Easy to find, since I linked you to it earlier.

I hope it is not too much to ask for more respectful exchanges moving forward.

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:09 am

I suspect that adding the pedialyte was more to entice the dog to drink and stay hydrated due to the flavoring, but I could be mistaken :?:
I'm not sure of the reasoning, but thirsty dogs drink with gusto in my experience, and experts in canine nutrition say they re-hydrate best with plain water as they do not lose electrolytes though sweat the way humans do. I think we humans tend to believe what is good for us is also what's best for canines, when in reality we are two species that sometimes have very different nutritional needs.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by MonsterDad » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:39 am

Spy Car wrote:There have been multiple scientific studies that demonstrate that the optimal source of energy for sporting dogs is fat.

Not carbohydrates, not sugar, not sports drinks. All these starches are contra-indicated for optimum sporting dog performance.

"Good fats" are what dogs metabolize well. Good fats are critical to stamina, not sugar. This is not controversial in the field of scientific canine nutrition.

Bill
Bill, you don't understand how this all works. Malodextrin short cuts the process by aiding in recovery. Eventually and in many slow steps fat can be turned into glycogen but maltodextrin is much faster.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:12 am

MonsterDad wrote:
Spy Car wrote:There have been multiple scientific studies that demonstrate that the optimal source of energy for sporting dogs is fat.

Not carbohydrates, not sugar, not sports drinks. All these starches are contra-indicated for optimum sporting dog performance.

"Good fats" are what dogs metabolize well. Good fats are critical to stamina, not sugar. This is not controversial in the field of scientific canine nutrition.

Bill
Bill, you don't understand how this all works. Malodextrin short cuts the process by aiding in recovery. Eventually and in many slow steps fat can be turned into glycogen but maltodextrin is much faster.
With due respect, I'm pretty familiar with the published scientific papers that have focused on this area. Assuming people are "ignorant" does seem to be a frequent tactic on this forum, led those whose "job" it is to an example, but I'd appreciate it if we could end the personal attacks and stick with reasoned discussion.

The best evidence is that carbohydrates in the diet do raise "glycogen" levels in the blood. This has led some trainers to try "glycogen loading" (prior to exercise) through raising the carbohydrate load in the diet. But what multiple studies have found is that this tactic is counter-productive. In the famous sled-dog study by Reynolds dogs fed a high carb diet did have higher glycogen levels in their muscles (to start), but that they burned through those store very rapidly. Conversely, Dogs fed a higher level of fat (appropriate to the intense work) had lower glycogen levels but were far superior at maintaining muscle glycogen though both aerobic and anaerobic exercise. The results of the two approaches was not remotely similar. Performance dogs fed more fat vs more carbs perform dramatically better.

There is a great deal of literature to support the idea that dogs should be conditioned on low-carb, higher fat (appropriate to the intensity of work) diet for increasing stamina.

There are also some who suggest small amounts of sugars post-exercise may aid in recovery by giving a quick boost to muscle glycogen. Others suggest this will just promote a short-term rise and crash of blood sugars. The latter is what my experience tells me is the case.

No evidence exists that I'm aware of that suggests dogs fed high carbs have anywhere near the stamina of dogs conditioned on appropriate healthy fats.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by MonsterDad » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:04 am

Bill, we have a saying where I am from, "You can't teach stupid".

The whole world, from hunting dogs to professional athletes use maltodextrin in combination with protein to aid muscle recovery and you deny it.

Sorry, what I said stands, "You can't teach stupid"

Bill, the evidence is that 99.9999% of field trial dogs eat about 30% calories from carbohydrates.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:18 am

MonsterDad wrote:Bill, we have a saying where I am from, "You can't teach stupid".

The whole world, from hunting dogs to professional athletes use maltodextrin in combination with protein to aid muscle recovery and you deny it.

Sorry, what I said stands, "You can't teach stupid"

Bill, the evidence is that 99.9999% of field trial dogs eat about 30% calories from carbohydrates.
So much for any hope of respectful dialogue :roll:

Humans and canines have very different physiologies. The role of diet in working dog performance has been fairly well studied. Scientific studies, ones that rely on blind tests employing the scientific method and conducted by experts in canine nutrition, convincingly show that a lower-carb higher-fat diet is optimal to conditioning dogs for stamina.

Bill
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:25 am

Bill, great post but again it is what most of us know. But it has nothing to do with the subject you are trying to comment on. The subject is that Maltodextrin when given within an hour or two after exercise will help the dog recover quicker. This has been proven and accepted as the best we can do for our dogs that help them maintain their abilities through several days of intense activity. Doesn't matter what you feed but just a method to aid in recovery from exercise. I think we are all aware of the advantages of feeding a reasonably high level of fat and how it benefits a dog. And through experience as well as scientific results, as you call them, we also have much experience in how to feed a high energy, high performance dog to get the best results. But it is an ever changing science and I am sure we will continue to learn new things in the years ahead. Don't know about you but I know we found that it was important to field test all of the concepts the scientific field came up with before they were accepted and made a part of the formulas as some of them worked and others didn't on a practical basis. I think there is often a disconnect between being book smart and understanding how it works in real life. And one of the main areas that dates back quite a few years was the need for a good quality carb source as well as fat and protein. Most of our commercial feed manufactures that have been around for many years have found that to be true and have benefitted greatly by including it in their feed formulas. After all, if you are going to be successful you must provide a product the customer has a need for and at a price that is cost effective or even that they can afford. I spent many years working in the field and with the consumers or customers and then working with nutritionist developing formulas and proving they work on our research facilities doing feeding test. I know you will try to polk holes in this whole concept and tell everyone companies have only one concern and that is to make money while having no regard for their customers, but you have never explained how any company has been successful selling a product that didn't fill a customers need. And for your information our company was completely owned by our customers and any profit we made went back to them annually. We did want to make money but we also knew the only way to do that was by producing a quality product.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:28 am

Spy Car wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:Bill, we have a saying where I am from, "You can't teach stupid".

The whole world, from hunting dogs to professional athletes use maltodextrin in combination with protein to aid muscle recovery and you deny it.

Sorry, what I said stands, "You can't teach stupid"

Bill, the evidence is that 99.9999% of field trial dogs eat about 30% calories from carbohydrates.
So much for any hope of respectful dialogue :roll:

Humans and canines have very different physiologies. The role of diet in working dog performance has been fairly well studied. Scientific studies, ones that rely on blind tests employing the scientific method and conducted by experts in canine nutrition, convincingly show that a lower-carb higher-fat diet is optimal to conditioning dogs for stamina.
Why is disrespectful to comment on stupid when some one has posted many times proving the point? Bill, no one owes you respect, it has to be earned.

Bill
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:15 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Bill, great post but again it is what most of us know. But it has nothing to do with the subject you are trying to comment on. The subject is that Maltodextrin when given within an hour or two after exercise will help the dog recover quicker. This has been proven and accepted as the best we can do for our dogs that help them maintain their abilities through several days of intense activity.
The maltodextrine does cause glycogen levels in the muscles to rise. I accept that is true. But, as with pre-exercise feeding of carbs (that also causes muscle glycogen to be higher than feeding fats, relatively speaking) the evidence this translates into performance is thin. Those dogs fed higher carbs prior to exercise burn through their energy stores faster than those conditioned to fat burning. The jury is out on post-exercise recovery. I expect the same thing hold true of pre-exercise diet, that pumping sugars and carbs is of very short term benefit and quickly becomes a counter-productive strategy.

[quote="ezzy333]"Doesn't matter what you feed but just a method to aid in recovery from exercise. [/quote]

Simply not true.
ezzy333 wrote:I think we are all aware of the advantages of feeding a reasonably high level of fat and how it benefits a dog.
One would hope, however stating it plainly seems to draw a lot of heat from some.
ezzy333 wrote:And through experience as well as scientific results, as you call them, we also have much experience in how to feed a high energy, high performance dog to get the best results. But it is an ever changing science and I am sure we will continue to learn new things in the years ahead. Don't know about you but I know we found that it was important to field test all of the concepts the scientific field came up with before they were accepted and made a part of the formulas as some of them worked and others didn't on a practical basis.
Yes, I accept that. The reason I've posted on the benefits of a Prey-Model Raw diet is that I'm seeing tremendous stamina and a vitality in my own dog (Vizsla) that has been on a raw diet since weaning. The lean muscle mass, fitness, coat condition, clean (sparkling white) teeth, and ability to go-go-go, impress the heck out of me. I've owned gun-dogs for a long time, including some super-atheletic dogs that were fed kibble. I see the difference a raw diet makes with my own eyes.

People are free to reject the idea out-of-hand, or believe it is "woo." But I've learned something through the experience. I wish I could turn back time and feed the previous dogs differently. The difference in condition and stamina is obvious and palpable. Feel free to reject my experience. That is fine my me. But please respect that I'm neither inexperienced with gun-dogs, or a dope.

[

I'm aware that you spent your life in the industry. I can appreciate on a personal level that you might take offense that someone (such as myself) might question the motives of the industry. I don't know how to get around that, unfortunately.

It is not true than companies/industries with more concern for the heath of the bottom-line than the heath of the consumer can't thrive. Look at the cigarette industry, or the fast-food industry. They've both told some whoppers about the healthfulness of their products despite clear evidence to the contrary, yet customers keep coming back. So the "they'd go out of business if they were not making a quality product" argument is less than persuasive when judging what is optimal nutrition for dogs (and what is not).

I'm not trying to hurt you Ezzy. I wish we could get past the BS and just discuss ideas without the other baggage. Is that possible?

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:16 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Why is disrespectful to comment on stupid when some one has posted many times proving the point? Bill, no one owes you respect, it has to be earned.
I guess you answered my last question Ezzy :roll:

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by luvthemud » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 pm

Spy Car wrote:
I suspect that adding the pedialyte was more to entice the dog to drink and stay hydrated due to the flavoring, but I could be mistaken :?:
I'm not sure of the reasoning, but thirsty dogs drink with gusto in my experience, and experts in canine nutrition say they re-hydrate best with plain water as they do not lose electrolytes though sweat the way humans do. I think we humans tend to believe what is good for us is also what's best for canines, when in reality we are two species that sometimes have very different nutritional needs.

Bill
When out hunting it was tough to get him to drink. From my experience, dogs always don't know what is best for them sometimes. Adding flavored pedialyte to the water did seem to help quite a bit and he would consume water much easier, assuming due to the flavoring?

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:04 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Why is disrespectful to comment on stupid when some one has posted many times proving the point? Bill, no one owes you respect, it has to be earned.
I guess you answered my last question Ezzy :roll:

Bill
Guess so. Since none of the older members that have been trying to discuss the topic with you had any idea who you were and had no reason to disrespect you it is evident if that has happened it is due to your posts and no other reason. If you want it to change it is up to you. I would suggest you start by changing the whole attitude you have displayed since the very first post you have made. A little humility, a little about your personal experiences, and a little interest in what others know would be a start. We all can quote a study and tell everyone that there is no other way but no one ever impressed people in a positive way with that attitude. And it would help if you could find some way to accept other peoples experiences and believe just a little of what they have learned over the years. Believe it or not neither I nor you are the smartest person on this forum and neither of us know it all, and neither of us should be afraid of learning something new, and that goes for everyone else on here. But you also have to be able to admit that every study you quote isn't superior to actual practice that most of us have experienced, That means you have to listen to what others say and if you want to discuss it with them stick to the subject with out immediately going back to some other subject and quoting some study. Many people with a life time of experience have little interest in what some researcher in a lab on the other side of the country is writing or studying. In other words normal every day good people have little interest in learning about something they are not having a problem with. And they are not interested in fixing something that isn't broken. It is not too late to get that respect you so desire but it will only come when you decide to change your approach and earn it. If you are going to act stupid then don't be offended when someone points it out to you. You have the ability to correct it, just do it.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:05 pm

luvthemud wrote:When out hunting it was tough to get him to drink. From my experience, dogs always don't know what is best for them sometimes. Adding flavored pedialyte to the water did seem to help quite a bit and he would consume water much easier, assuming due to the flavoring?
Some dogs take to getting a water break better than others...as with some dogs running too hard for their own good, dogs do not always work with their own best interests in mind.
Same with us, for that matter...so, we need to be the wiser head twixt the two, if possible.
While I'm not in favor of adding "stuff" to water willy-nilly, each situation can be very different, so fit & try and w/o the agendas developed from Internet surfing and little experience getting in the way.

For myself and my dogs, working to get them to drink form a bottle is basic training...and, makes me take a drink whenever they do...helps us both.

I do find that at the end of some long days or long trips, dogs can be too tired to eat or drink...enough.
A little help with floated food or different food seems an ok way to go.
Again, fit & try.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:09 pm

luvthemud wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
I suspect that adding the pedialyte was more to entice the dog to drink and stay hydrated due to the flavoring, but I could be mistaken :?:
I'm not sure of the reasoning, but thirsty dogs drink with gusto in my experience, and experts in canine nutrition say they re-hydrate best with plain water as they do not lose electrolytes though sweat the way humans do. I think we humans tend to believe what is good for us is also what's best for canines, when in reality we are two species that sometimes have very different nutritional needs.

Bill
When out hunting it was tough to get him to drink. From my experience, dogs always don't know what is best for them sometimes. Adding flavored pedialyte to the water did seem to help quite a bit and he would consume water much easier, assuming due to the flavoring?
The advice I've seen from experts in canine sports nutrition is not to give gatorade or other electrolyte drinks to dogs.

If it were me, and my dog wouldn't drink water (when I knew he needed to re-hydrate) by other means and it took pedialyte to accomplish the task, I'm fairly certain I'd use it. A dog de-hydrating is dangerous.

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:23 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Why is disrespectful to comment on stupid when some one has posted many times proving the point? Bill, no one owes you respect, it has to be earned.
I guess you answered my last question Ezzy :roll:

Bill
Guess so. Since none of the older members that have been trying to discuss the topic with you had any idea who you were and had no reason to disrespect you it is evident if that has happened it is due to your posts and no other reason. If you want it to change it is up to you. I would suggest you start by changing the whole attitude you have displayed since the very first post you have made. A little humility, a little about your personal experiences, and a little interest in what others know would be a start. We all can quote a study and tell everyone that there is no other way but no one ever impressed people in a positive way with that attitude. And it would help if you could find some way to accept other peoples experiences and believe just a little of what they have learned over the years. Believe it or not neither I nor you are the smartest person on this forum and neither of us know it all, and neither of us should be afraid of learning something new, and that goes for everyone else on here. But you also have to be able to admit that every study you quote isn't superior to actual practice that most of us have experienced, That means you have to listen to what others say and if you want to discuss it with them stick to the subject with out immediately going back to some other subject and quoting some study. Many people with a life time of experience have little interest in what some researcher in a lab on the other side of the country is writing or studying. In other words normal every day good people have little interest in learning about something they are not having a problem with. And they are not interested in fixing something that isn't broken. It is not too late to get that respect you so desire but it will only come when you decide to change your approach and earn it. If you are going to act stupid then don't be offended when someone points it out to you. You have the ability to correct it, just do it.

Ezzy
You set a very poor example of humility Ezzy. People feel free to show disrespect to new forum members when you set the tone.

I came to the forum to both share and to learn. Unfortunately it seems anyone who dissents from a very narrow window of practices (and not just me) gets slammed by other members of this forum, is called an "anti," stupid, ignorant, or inexperienced. And your behavior is among the wort in this regard.

Crikey.

I'm told positions I take are "psuedo-science," so I post links the actual science evidence by the leading experts in the field that supports the position. Then (when the science proves you're wrong) I'm told I'm not in the "real world" and science be damned, who needs a study? Good grief.

You are not the only person with experience with dogs Ezzy. To be lecture on "humility" by you is the biggest laugh I've had in years.

It would be cool to have a forum where people could discuss and even disagree without all the posturing.

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:11 pm

Mercy. WE get it. You don't like Ezzy. He's figured that out too. . However, he's the moderator here , so if you don't like that ................

" Ezzy. Get up. Get up." :)

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:20 pm

Spy Car wrote: It would be cool to have a forum where people could discuss and even disagree without all the posturing.
Bill
Why don't you start just such a message board?

Could the reason that you don't or do not advertise the board be...that oil needs the water?

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:18 am

My recovery drink has over twice the fat content of Purina PP while adding other nutrients and great taste to promote hydration. It also contains as much Protein derived from meat but is easier to digest. And yes, I can see an improvement in recovery but have never seen any downfall...Sometimes what we do just makes us feel like we are doing what we can do to help our best friends and as long as its not hurting them, its all good.

PS, I have a dog that loves Fruit flavored Gatoraid and has never showed any negative signs from it. He only gets it as a treat but it does help with hydration. (not energy per say).

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by onuhunter02 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:49 am

I agree which Sharon in addition to that it does not appear there is much more new information can we lock this topic out.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:29 am

onuhunter02 wrote:I agree which Sharon in addition to that it does not appear there is much more new information can we lock this topic out.
\

Yes we can. But till there is a better reason would it harm you in anyway if we left it open and you just stop reading it while letting everyone else decide if they want to read or take part in it? I hate to lock any topic but occasionally we do have to when it gets to the place of no longer talking about the topic and instead just talking about the people. This one has come close but I think that has been taken care of behind the scene where most problems are solved.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by mask » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:58 am

After the hunting season I give my dogs about 60 days rest. I have an acre fenced and they get out every day. I road and free run the dogs all summer so they are in top shape for Sept. I do give glycol charge after a hunt but I don't know if it helps or just makes me feel better. Now to the question, if a dog needs a bump during a hunt, honey mixed with a little peanut butter and a little rest will help. Sometimes common sense goes a long way but it is not real common sometimes. Sooo! if your dog is really tired don't run him anymore that day.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by CDN_Cocker » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:24 pm

The science behind maltodextrin is that it is replacing glycogen stores that are depleted after exercise. Same as humans who train for sports or work out often. Regardless of whether the body (dog or human) uses fat for energy, glycogen can only be replaced with... you guessed it... glucose (or similar sugars). The most efficient way to begin rebuilding muscle tissue is consuming carbs shortly post-workout - regardless of species.
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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:01 pm

CDN_Cocker wrote:The science behind maltodextrin is that it is replacing glycogen stores that are depleted after exercise. Same as humans who train for sports or work out often. Regardless of whether the body (dog or human) uses fat for energy, glycogen can only be replaced with... you guessed it... glucose (or similar sugars). The most efficient way to begin rebuilding muscle tissue is consuming carbs shortly post-workout - regardless of species.
The difference between feeding a dog fat and sugar (maltodextrin) is that canines are highly efficient at turning fats into glycogen in a sustained fashion that was shaped by 40 million years of canine evolution. Unlike the outstanding and natural mechanisms dogs have to bun fats, feeding on sugar is not part of normal canine physiology (or behavior). Their muscle glucose levels do do up when fed sugars, but then quickly crash. It is an ephemeral vs sustained approach. Feeding dogs sugars leads to a host of other health problems. Not a good approach.

As to building muscle, the idea that this is best done through feeding carbohydrates is false. Muscle building (and avoiding muscle tears and injury) is best done by keeping carbohydrates very low, and keeping protein percentages at at least 32%. Dogs fed on high carb/low protein diets sustain muscle damage and tears and don't re-build muscle vs dogs fed adequate protein. Common sense tells us that, and this area is well-studied in the scientific literature. Proteins build (and re-build) muscle, not carbohydrates.

Bill

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:15 pm

Spy Car wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:The science behind maltodextrin is that it is replacing glycogen stores that are depleted after exercise. Same as humans who train for sports or work out often. Regardless of whether the body (dog or human) uses fat for energy, glycogen can only be replaced with... you guessed it... glucose (or similar sugars). The most efficient way to begin rebuilding muscle tissue is consuming carbs shortly post-workout - regardless of species.
The difference between feeding a dog fat and sugar (maltodextrin) is that canines are highly efficient at turning fats into glycogen in a sustained fashion that was shaped by 40 million years of canine evolution. Unlike the outstanding and natural mechanisms dogs have to bun fats, feeding on sugar is not part of normal canine physiology (or behavior). Their muscle glucose levels do do up when fed sugars, but then quickly crash. It is an ephemeral vs sustained approach. Feeding dogs sugars leads to a host of other health problems. Not a good approach.

As to building muscle, the idea that this is best done through feeding carbohydrates is false. Muscle building (and avoiding muscle tears and injury) is best done by keeping carbohydrates very low, and keeping protein percentages at at least 32%. Dogs fed on high carb/low protein diets sustain muscle damage and tears and don't re-build muscle vs dogs fed adequate protein. Common sense tells us that, and this area is well-studied in the scientific literature. Proteins build (and re-build) muscle, not carbohydrates.

Bill
Once again you are talking about a different subject than what is being discussed. You are talking what to feed to build muscle while the maltodextrin is used immediately after exercise to aid in recovery so the normal diet will work quicker. I do not think and have never heard an argument about the use of Maltodextrin as it has been researched and tested repeatedly and it is about the only thing that really aids in quick recovery. No one is advocating feeding it but it does work to get the recovery started quickly.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by fourtrax » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:27 pm

Good quality dog food IMO will take care of most concerns.

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Re: what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

Post by Spy Car » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
CDN_Cocker wrote:The science behind maltodextrin is that it is replacing glycogen stores that are depleted after exercise. Same as humans who train for sports or work out often. Regardless of whether the body (dog or human) uses fat for energy, glycogen can only be replaced with... you guessed it... glucose (or similar sugars). The most efficient way to begin rebuilding muscle tissue is consuming carbs shortly post-workout - regardless of species.
The difference between feeding a dog fat and sugar (maltodextrin) is that canines are highly efficient at turning fats into glycogen in a sustained fashion that was shaped by 40 million years of canine evolution. Unlike the outstanding and natural mechanisms dogs have to bun fats, feeding on sugar is not part of normal canine physiology (or behavior). Their muscle glucose levels do do up when fed sugars, but then quickly crash. It is an ephemeral vs sustained approach. Feeding dogs sugars leads to a host of other health problems. Not a good approach.

As to building muscle, the idea that this is best done through feeding carbohydrates is false. Muscle building (and avoiding muscle tears and injury) is best done by keeping carbohydrates very low, and keeping protein percentages at at least 32%. Dogs fed on high carb/low protein diets sustain muscle damage and tears and don't re-build muscle vs dogs fed adequate protein. Common sense tells us that, and this area is well-studied in the scientific literature. Proteins build (and re-build) muscle, not carbohydrates.

Bill
Once again you are talking about a different subject than what is being discussed. You are talking what to feed to build muscle while the maltodextrin is used immediately after exercise to aid in recovery so the normal diet will work quicker. I do not think and have never heard an argument about the use of Maltodextrin as it has been researched and tested repeatedly and it is about the only thing that really aids in quick recovery. No one is advocating feeding it but it does work to get the recovery started quickly.

Ezzy
I don't doubt that a drink of sugar (maltodextrin) boosts muscle glucose. But (and hate to bring up scientific studies, but) when sled dogs had high levels of muscle glucose from drinking maltodextrin vs slightly lower levels of muscle glucose from eating fat, the sugar fed dogs all faded quickly upon exertion, while the fat-fed dogs produced sustained energy. The fat burning is "natures way." Feeding sugar is unnatural, and it does not sustain energy.

Feeding sugar to dogs has many negative heath consequences.

Bill

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