what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

[Luminary Setters]

It is a fascinating topic, and would like to read the studies you are referencing. But, for the average hunter with an averagely conditioned dog going on an extended hunt, a products like Glycocharge will facilitate his dog and hunting experience.

[AlPastor]

It is a fascinating topic, and would like to read the studies you are referencing. But, for the average hunter with an averagely conditioned dog going on an extended hunt, a products like Glycocharge will facilitate his dog and hunting experience.

Iirc, the first was done by Oklahoma State around 2005.

There are tons of articles using the keywords "sled dog fat metabolism switch".

[ezzy333]

Al the thing you are not mentioning is the difference in the sled dogs from our sporting dogs and the different requirements that they have and how that effects their activities as well as the effect of thye different environments they are performing in.

[AlPastor]

Al the thing you are not mentioning is the difference in the sled dogs from our sporting dogs and the different requirements that they have and how that effects their activities as well as the effect of thye different environments they are performing in.

I'm not sure that they are dissimilar.

I have not done biopsies on different canines' muscle tissue however, since sporting breeds and even poodles have had success in distance mushing, that for the most part they're functionally identical.

As for activities, I'd argue that a dog hunting the prairies for a week has much more in common with a sled dog than a dog running a 1 hour stake.

[P&PGunsmith]

isn't there also a problem with comparing sled dogs to huntings dogs in that the sled dogs are also having to deal with extreme cold.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

isn't there also a problem with comparing sled dogs to huntings dogs in that the sled dogs are also having to deal with extreme cold.

I don't see how that would make a difference since they are all 99.8% related and some breeders up there are using GSP's in there program.

[ezzy333]

isn't there also a problem with comparing sled dogs to huntings dogs in that the sled dogs are also having to deal with extreme cold.

That is perhaps the biggest difference both from the sleeping and working in those conditions. I don't know what the percentage differents would be in the required intake but it is considerably different.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Dogs run best on an empty stomach. Maltodextrin will help them recover after a hard day but otherwise the dogs energy will come from conditioning and what you fed yesterday or the day before.

+ 1

[Neil]

I have found it harder on some dogs to run 30 minutes full tilt, lay up in cramped dog wagon for an hour or so, then run again, finishing strong, than running an hour.

But the real tests in endurance and recovery are the various invitationals. The top 12 dogs compete an hour in each of 2 consecutive days, then return for 2 hours on the third day.

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

[AlPastor]

isn't there also a problem with comparing sled dogs to huntings dogs in that the sled dogs are also having to deal with extreme cold.

That is perhaps the biggest difference both from the sleeping and working in those conditions. I don't know what the percentage differents would be in the required intake but it is considerably different.

Again, I'm not sure why the climate would even be a variable when discussing metabolic pathways so I don't understand why the delta in climate is a consideration.

The only variables that seem important are the physical stressor (is the exercise enough to flip the switch), and the delta in performance when compared to maltodextrin.

[AlPastor]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

[Neil]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

Do you have a point? A position? Are you refuting my statement? If it helps any you are right, I am not an early adopter when it comes to my dogs. And I was not talking about the vast majority of field trialers, not even those winning trials, but those winning the invitationals.

[AlPastor]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

Do you have a point? A position? Are you refuting my statement? If it helps any you are right, I am not an early adopter when it comes to my dogs. And I was not talking about the vast majority of field trialers, not even those winning trials, but those winning the invitationals.

The guys winning invitationals 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, and 100 years ago weren't using maltodextrin. Maltodextrin wasn't any less effective in canines back then but you would have been against its usage in your own dogs and told the first guy trying it that it doesn't enhance performance because the guys winning invitationals weren't using it.

I couldn't care less what other people are using especially the winners of invitationals are using. I only care about the guy that first tinkered around with a supplement that they copied. He's the guy that I'm interested in. The innovator. Not the copiers. It is the difference between trying to gain a competitive advantage, which the innovator will have had for years until the copiers have gotten wise, and trying to keep up. I guess that is my point.

[Spy Car]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

That people feel the need to resort to the quick-fix of a sugar boost (that leads to a crash) so their dogs can run for an hour is further evidence of the inadequacy of cereal-based diets. Ezzy is right on one point, a dogs energy will come from conditioning and what you fed yesterday or the day before. If they are eating starches, carbs, and simple sugars dogs will have no well of sustainable energy to dip into. Feeding meat, fat, bones (raw), and organs is a diet that susstains the sort of work hunting dogs do. Needing to resort to maltodextrin should make it plain as day that something is very wrong with what was fed yesterday and the day before.

Bill

[Tooling]

I have read through this thread & also appreciate the experience as well as the technical volume which has now been published on this subject.

My dog does well on his food and I run him regularly to condition him.

When hunting hard - we will typically do 2 days on and 1 day off.

Following a day of hunting, my wife has me feed the dog a small cup of Greek Yogurt with Maltodextrin from a health store (in powder form) mixed into it...once his breathing has stabilized and within thirty minutes of the activity.

I have no clue whether it is doing anything for him but in keeping with good practice through many years of marital experience..I just obey.

We are headed out for a 2 week excursion in about a week and a half.

Daily diet is as follows

IMG_7618.jpg

~ pup seems to do very well on this and is very strong/healthy/vital ~ he also gets a small amount of wet food mixed in every other dinner and a small teaspoon of greek yogurt daily (per spousal instruction )- the wet food appears to be high quality and contains chunks of pure seemingly unprocessed meats/vegetable/fruits along with bones that are softened from the gravy that the can contains (Merrick - Smothered Comfort / his favorite)

Having said that, if it would promote better health or be helpful to the dog going into a demanding couple of weeks, I would be inclined to begin adding any sort of pure animal fat, guts, meats , parts, etc. that I can get from the local butcher to his feeding regimen in preparation of the upcoming season.

With only ten days to go - would the addition of these food items be helpful to him?

[slistoe]

I couldn't care less what other people are using especially the winners of invitationals are using. I only care about the guy that first tinkered around with a supplement that they copied. He's the guy that I'm interested in. The innovator. Not the copiers. It is the difference between trying to gain a competitive advantage, which the innovator will have had for years until the copiers have gotten wise, and trying to keep up. I guess that is my point.

So what are you winning? Why should we copy you?

[ezzy333]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

That people feel the need to resort to the quick-fix of a sugar boost (that leads to a crash) so their dogs can run for an hour is further evidence of the inadequacy of cereal-based diets. Ezzy is right on one point, a dogs energy will come from conditioning and what you fed yesterday or the day before. If they are eating starches, carbs, and simple sugars dogs will have no well of sustainable energy to dip into. Feeding meat, fat, bones (raw), and organs is a diet that susstains the sort of work hunting dogs do. Needing to resort to maltodextrin should make it plain as day that something is very wrong with what was fed yesterday and the day before.

Bill

Bill, you don't seem to understand what the use of Maltodextrin is for and what it does for the body muscle recovery. It isn't used as an energy source and has nothing to do as far as an energy source and how or what the dog is fed. It just helps eliminate the soreness and stiffness associated with heavy activity that happens whenever a muscle is used. The feed the dog eats provides the energy, however due to the digestion times it takes hours to see the results. The Maltodextrin is for muscle recovery and has nothing to do with muscle energy.

Ezzy

[shags]

I don't much care about what the sled dog guys do, I care about the guys winning with pointing dogs. And those I know are using some version of maltodextrin.

This is a unique question for a specific situation, and is not our usual what is the best feed debate.

I don't care what the vast majority field trailers are doing. The overwhelming majority of them are copiers and not inovators. Frankly, field trialer adoption only means that it is better than what they were doing before. Not that it's the best.

It also means that while maltodextrin has been effective in canines since the day you were born but you wouldn't have tried it for decades because the guys winning trials weren't using it.

That people feel the need to resort to the quick-fix of a sugar boost (that leads to a crash) so their dogs can run for an hour is further evidence of the inadequacy of cereal-based diets. Ezzy is right on one point, a dogs energy will come from conditioning and what you fed yesterday or the day before. If they are eating starches, carbs, and simple sugars dogs will have no well of sustainable energy to dip into. Feeding meat, fat, bones (raw), and organs is a diet that susstains the sort of work hunting dogs do. Needing to resort to maltodextrin should make it plain as day that something is very wrong with what was fed yesterday and the day before.

Bill

I can't think of any commercial complete feeds that are solely starches, carbs, and simple sugars, so what is your point?

If the dogs belonging to the 'innovators' who feed only meat, fat, bones, and organs were showing incredible performance, wouldn't the rest of us 'copiers' be following their lead? The proof is in the (meaty) pudding, isn't it?

As an aside that may add to the discussion, I just read a little email thing from Pointing Dog Journal which points out the importance of warm-ups and cool-downs for our dogs. It's something I've been doing for years now, and it helps a lot with preventing injury and post-activity soreness. I think dogs recover better if they can have some light activity as their bodies recover, instead of being stuffed right into a dogbox after a stake or a hunt.

[Neil]

Shags,

You are absolutely right about the importance of warm-up/cool down; and I do it as best I can training and hunting; but I have never found a way to do it on a continuous course trial.

But thanks for bringing it up, hopefully it will not be lost in the mudslinging.

Oh, I think it better to be a late adopter than to never adopt at all. I have never claimed to be an innovator, I don't experiment with MY dogs.

Neil

[AlPastor]

Bill, you don't seem to understand what the use of Maltodextrin is for and what it does for the body muscle recovery. It isn't used as an energy source and has nothing to do as far as an energy source and how or what the dog is fed. It just helps eliminate the soreness and stiffness associated with heavy activity that happens whenever a muscle is used. The feed the dog eats provides the energy, however due to the digestion times it takes hours to see the results. The Maltodextrin is for muscle recovery and has nothing to do with muscle energy.

Ezzy

I hate to tell you but you don't seem to understand the hows and whys of maltodextrin (or dextrose or waxy maize) use post workout.

When an animal (human, canine, or other) runs out of glucose and glycogen, the stress hormone cortisol starts breaking down muscle fibers and send those proteins to the liver where they're converted to glucose. It is called gluconeogenesis.

The maltodextrin, when ingested immediately post workout and without fat, is quickly absorbed by the gut but needs the liver to convert it into glycogen. Since maltodextrin is a high GI carb, it causes an insulin spike which facilitates a quick pathway into the cells.

Long story short, despite your assertion to the contrary, it is being used as (1) energy to stop gluconeogenesis and (2) to replenish glycogen stores.

The real question remains is even entering into this cycle of glycogen depletement, gluconeogenesis, ingestion of high GI carbs, and subsequent glycogen replenishment yielding the highest performance for sporting dogs?

The edurance sledding community has gone a different direction which is completely bypassing depletement of glycogen, cortisol and it's catabolic effects. It's definitely worth looking into.

AL

Ps. Even theasier good folks that are using maltodextrin aren't coming close to maximizing effecriveness.

[Spy Car]

Bill, you don't seem to understand what the use of Maltodextrin is for and what it does for the body muscle recovery. It isn't used as an energy source and has nothing to do as far as an energy source and how or what the dog is fed. It just helps eliminate the soreness and stiffness associated with heavy activity that happens whenever a muscle is used. The feed the dog eats provides the energy, however due to the digestion times it takes hours to see the results. The Maltodextrin is for muscle recovery and has nothing to do with muscle energy.

Ezzy

I know exactly why Maltodextrin is being used. It is because dogs fed cereal-based diets deplete the glycogen in their muscles very rapidly, and develop soreness and stiffness as a result. So more sugar is the (ultimately counter-productive) "quick fix," that just exacerbates the real nutritional problem, which is using carbs as an energy source instead of fats.

Dogs fed a natural diet don't have the same problems. Fats keep muscles sustained with glycogen, this avoid the stiffness you are trying to mask with more sugar. That's why hard-working sled dogs are fueled by fats, not sugar.

Bill

[AlPastor]

I think it better to be a late adopter than to never adopt at all. I have never claimed to be an innovator, I don't experiment with MY dogs.

Sorry but if your not on the bleeding edge, at minimum cutting edge, you're spotting some of your competitors an advantage.

I mean seriously how long was it after maltodextrin use became common that you adopted? 2 seasons? 3 seasons? How long after the early adopters? 5 seasons? How long after the innovators? 7 seasons?

[SCT]

I though glycogen, once stored, is the same regardless of the source of protein ingested. Also, isn't glycogen the last thing depleted and aren't reserves of it likely to last well past one strenuous workout?? I would be interested in the sled dog study showing abilities to make glycogen last, rather than use malto. Where was that posted??? I really just don't use supplements and don't plan on starting since I haven't seen any breakdown in physical abilities in my dogs.

Steve

[Spy Car]

I can't think of any commercial complete feeds that are solely starches, carbs, and simple sugars, so what is your point?

The point (as Al Pastor has been explaining well) is that when dogs are fed the high-carbohydrate loads in cereal-based kibbles the fat-burning mechanism is disrupted, Dogs convert fat to energy spectacularly well (when the diet is not carb loaded). Carbohydrates, in contrast to fats, are not an efficient fuel source for dogs. The Maltodextrin "fix" is evidence of the problem, along with the sore and stiff muscles. It is cause and effect.

If the dogs belonging to the 'innovators' who feed only meat, fat, bones, and organs were showing incredible performance, wouldn't the rest of us 'copiers' be following their lead? The proof is in the (meaty) pudding, isn't it?

Absolutely. A change is coming. I have no doubt about that. The proof is in the pudding, and the results are so obvious that change will come. Guaranteed. I've raised gun-dogs for 45 years (since I was a kid). the difference in condition and stamina are not subtle. That's the truth.

As an aside that may add to the discussion, I just read a little email thing from Pointing Dog Journal which points out the importance of warm-ups and cool-downs for our dogs. It's something I've been doing for years now, and it helps a lot with preventing injury and post-activity soreness. I think dogs recover better if they can have some light activity as their bodies recover, instead of being stuffed right into a dogbox after a stake or a hunt.

Yep.

Bill

[Sharon]

shags wrote:
As an aside that may add to the discussion, I just read a little email thing from Pointing Dog Journal which points out the importance of warm-ups and cool-downs for our dogs. It's something I've been doing for years now, and it helps a lot with preventing injury and post-activity soreness. I think dogs recover better if they can have some light activity as their bodies recover, instead of being stuffed right into a dogbox after a stake or a hunt.

Never thought of that. I'm not as bright as you. I'm going to start doing that as of to day. Thanks.

[Neil]

I think it better to be a late adopter than to never adopt at all. I have never claimed to be an innovator, I don't experiment with MY dogs.

Sorry but if your not on the bleeding edge, at minimum cutting edge, you're spotting some of your competitors an advantage.

I mean seriously how long was it after maltodextrin use became common that you adopted? 2 seasons? 3 seasons? How long after the early adopters? 5 seasons? How long after the innovators? 7 seasons?

Still don't get your point, unless it is to publicly shame me. And I really don't recall the date maltodextrin usage became common, I think I started to use it in 1999.

I am trying to answer the OP's question, if you are it is in an esoteric manner. So please share your vast knowledge, what should he do? Specifically? What is the bloody, cutting edge? And how are you doing with the competition?

Neil

[ezzy333]

Bill, you don't seem to understand what the use of Maltodextrin is for and what it does for the body muscle recovery. It isn't used as an energy source and has nothing to do as far as an energy source and how or what the dog is fed. It just helps eliminate the soreness and stiffness associated with heavy activity that happens whenever a muscle is used. The feed the dog eats provides the energy, however due to the digestion times it takes hours to see the results. The Maltodextrin is for muscle recovery and has nothing to do with muscle energy.

Ezzy

I know exactly why Maltodextrin is being used. It is because dogs fed cereal-based diets deplete the glycogen in their muscles very rapidly, and develop soreness and stiffness as a result. So more sugar is the (ultimately counter-productive) "quick fix," that just exacerbates the real nutritional problem, which is using carbs as an energy source instead of fats.

Dogs fed a natural diet don't have the same problems. Fats keep muscles sustained with glycogen, this avoid the stiffness you are trying to mask with more sugar. That's why hard-working sled dogs are fueled by fats, not sugar. Bill

\Bill, it is for any dog or human, no matter what they are eating immediately after heavy exercise. We have the same situation with our birds when they get home from a 300 or more mile race. We will worry about providing energy after a couple of hours and you can feed what ever you want but the immediate recovery is enhanced greatly with the Maltodextrin. Much research went into it and this was one of the few things that really worked and made a difference.

[Spy Car]

\Bill, it is for any dog or human, no matter what they are eating immediately after heavy exercise. We have the same situation with our birds when they get home from a 300 or more mile race. We will worry about providing energy after a couple of hours and you can feed what ever you want but the immediate recovery is enhanced greatly with the Maltodextrin. Much research went into it and this was one of the few things that really worked and made a difference.

Ezzy, I think you're missing the point.

If a dog has eaten a natural diet of meat, fat, bone and organ in the time leading up to an event, they will have sufficient store of blood glycogen during (and post) exertion that these dogs will not experience the muscle cramping, stiffness, and soreness that a dog fed a cereal-based diet will.

Maltodextrin is used as a way to compensate for poor nutrition, and specifically the consequences of metabolizing carbs instead of fats. Running for an hour or two is not some huge stress on a dog that burns fat. That is a day in the park.

Instead of treating symptoms, the smart play is to ask why a dog is cramping and sore after such little work? And the answer is it is the deficiency of a cereal-based diet.

Bill

[AlPastor]

I think it better to be a late adopter than to never adopt at all. I have never claimed to be an innovator, I don't experiment with MY dogs.

Sorry but if your not on the bleeding edge, at minimum cutting edge, you're spotting some of your competitors an advantage.

I mean seriously how long was it after maltodextrin use became common that you adopted? 2 seasons? 3 seasons? How long after the early adopters? 5 seasons? How long after the innovators? 7 seasons?

Still don't get your point, unless it is to publicly shame me. And I really don't recall the date maltodextrin usage became common, I think I started to use it in 1999.

I am trying to answer the OP's question, if you are it is in an esoteric manner. So please share your vast knowledge, what should he do? Specifically? What is the bloody, cutting edge? And how are you doing with the competition?

Neil

I'm not trying to shame anyone. If iam trying to shame anything, it is this weird "if winning trailers don't use it, it doesn't work" circular line of reasoning. If everyone actually stuck to that line of reasoning, you all would be feeding the same food (and everything else for that matter) exactly the same for the last 100 years. It is only because people think out of the box for a competitive advantage, by totally ignoring your line of reasoning, that they have advanced in terms of nutrition, training methods, etc. The vast majority of you are behind the times and are using anecdotal evidence for problems that are complex and multivariate.

Let me put this this way, in the mid 90s, maltodextrin was as common as water and food at sprint sled dog race.

Despite still using a high GI post race supplement, they've still stuck to a very high fat high protein feed with extremely limited carbs.

Ps. If you're using straight maltodextrin, you're 3 generations behind. Heck, a d-glucose and maltodextrin blend is a decade behind the times.

[AlPastor]

\Bill, it is for any dog or human, no matter what they are eating immediately after heavy exercise. We have the same situation with our birds when they get home from a 300 or more mile race. We will worry about providing energy after a couple of hours and you can feed what ever you want but the immediate recovery is enhanced greatly with the Maltodextrin. Much research went into it and this was one of the few things that really worked and made a difference.

Ezzy, I think you're missing the point.

If a dog has eaten a natural diet of meat, fat, bone and organ in the time leading up to an event, they will have sufficient store of blood glycogen during (and post) exertion that these dogs will not experience the muscle cramping, stiffness, and soreness that a dog fed a cereal-based diet will.

Maltodextrin is used as a way to compensate for poor nutrition, and specifically the consequences of metabolizing carbs instead of fats. Running for an hour or two is not some huge stress on a dog that burns fat. That is a day in the park.

Instead of treating symptoms, the smart play is to ask why a dog is cramping and sore after such little work? And the answer is it is the deficiency of a cereal-based diet.

Bill

I can make a case for a high GI post race supplement for special scenarios but only after everything else is on point from nutrition to conditioning.

In other words, unless the dog has been on a high fat high protein very low carb diet and you're training hard to maximize VO2 Max, any post race supplement is a bandaid. The dog needs months on the high fat diet to adapt and greatly increase mitochondrial density in the muscle. Training to maximize VO2 max allows the dog to run faster on purely metabolized fat.

However, for a hunting dog, you should be able to get all day easily on nothing but a high fat very low carb diet and preseason conditioning.

[Spy Car]

\Bill, it is for any dog or human, no matter what they are eating immediately after heavy exercise. We have the same situation with our birds when they get home from a 300 or more mile race. We will worry about providing energy after a couple of hours and you can feed what ever you want but the immediate recovery is enhanced greatly with the Maltodextrin. Much research went into it and this was one of the few things that really worked and made a difference.

Ezzy, I think you're missing the point.

If a dog has eaten a natural diet of meat, fat, bone and organ in the time leading up to an event, they will have sufficient store of blood glycogen during (and post) exertion that these dogs will not experience the muscle cramping, stiffness, and soreness that a dog fed a cereal-based diet will.

Maltodextrin is used as a way to compensate for poor nutrition, and specifically the consequences of metabolizing carbs instead of fats. Running for an hour or two is not some huge stress on a dog that burns fat. That is a day in the park.

Instead of treating symptoms, the smart play is to ask why a dog is cramping and sore after such little work? And the answer is it is the deficiency of a cereal-based diet.

Bill

I can make a case for a high GI post race supplement for special scenarios but only after everything else is on point from nutrition to conditioning.

In other words, unless the dog has been on a high fat high protein very low carb diet and you're training hard to maximize VO2 Max, any post race supplement is a bandaid. The dog needs months on the high fat diet to adapt and greatly increase mitochondrial density in the muscle. Training to maximize VO2 max allows the dog to run faster on purely metabolized fat.

However, for a hunting dog, you should be able to get all day easily on nothing but a high fat very low carb diet and preseason conditioning.

I agree on all points.

Bill

[ezzy333]

\Bill, it is for any dog or human, no matter what they are eating immediately after heavy exercise. We have the same situation with our birds when they get home from a 300 or more mile race. We will worry about providing energy after a couple of hours and you can feed what ever you want but the immediate recovery is enhanced greatly with the Maltodextrin. Much research went into it and this was one of the few things that really worked and made a difference.

Ezzy, I think you're missing the point.

If a dog has eaten a natural diet of meat, fat, bone and organ in the time leading up to an event, they will have sufficient store of blood glycogen during (and post) exertion that these dogs will not experience the muscle cramping, stiffness, and soreness that a dog fed a cereal-based diet will.

Maltodextrin is used as a way to compensate for poor nutrition, and specifically the consequences of metabolizing carbs instead of fats. Running for an hour or two is not some huge stress on a dog that burns fat. That is a day in the park.

Instead of treating symptoms, the smart play is to ask why a dog is cramping and sore after such little work? And the answer is it is the deficiency of a cereal-based diet.

Bill

I can make a case for a high GI post race supplement for special scenarios but only after everything else is on point from nutrition to conditioning.

In other words, unless the dog has been on a high fat high protein very low carb diet and you're training hard to maximize VO2 Max, any post race supplement is a bandaid. The dog needs months on the high fat diet to adapt and greatly increase mitochondrial density in the muscle. Training to maximize VO2 max allows the dog to run faster on purely metabolized fat.

However, for a hunting dog, you should be able to get all day easily on nothing but a high fat very low carb diet and preseason conditioning.

Maltodextrin is not used to replace or supplement any diet. It is used for a very specific purpose and it has little to do with what or how much the dog or bird is or has eaten. All it does is start very quickly the repair of the muscle. The feed will take over in a couple of hours but since we don't feed till the animal has had a chance to get the body functions back to normal the use of the MD is well justified. As an example I have found that in most cases I can send a bird on long races every week and that is different than we did in the past as it would take them a week or two to get back in condition.

One other thing you are not being accurate on is the reference to high carbs in a dry feed. That is not necessarily true. You speak of a high protein and fat feed. I don't know how high you are referring to but I think I heard you say something about 40 20 which is probably too high but lets just figure a 30 - 20 ratio. So to break this down we have to consider the feed is 10 percent mineral, 10 percent water. 10 percent fiber, 20 percent fat, and it will take at least 50 percent of any ingredient to carry the 30 percent protein. So those percentages add up to 100 percent, where are the carbs? I agree with thinking outside of the box on some things but when you get outside of the box on actual physical quantities and qualities you often are just misleading people as well as yourself if you actually believe. Progress is learning new things and is not based on disproving what has been learned in the past.

[Neil]

Guys, I just field trial my hunting dogs, I have had some success, but was never going to have a dog on the steps of the Ames Plantation. Those that do are not my competition, so I am fine following their advice and being behind the curve.

Some have tried, but it is very difficult to feed raw on the road, so I do not think that is an option. I personally have never been able to feed anything hotter than 30 - 20, without blowing them out.

It is my belief that the OP and most of those reading this thread are equally realistic in their needs and goals. He did not ask how to win the National Championship with some ground breaking concoction of feed and supplements. He only wants to run a couple three 30 minutes stakes on the weekend, maybe followed with an hour. I think we have given him and others plenty to consider.

[Spy Car]

Maltodextrin is not used to replace or supplement any diet. It is used for a very specific purpose and it has little to do with what or how much the dog or bird is or has eaten. All it does is start very quickly the repair of the muscle.

The Maltodextrin is too often being used to boost blood glycogen in dogs that should not be depleted and exhausted by the amount of exertion they have been under. Dogs running a couple of hours should not be so depleted, but when they run on carbs they are wiped out. That's not good.

Further, the muscles of cereal-fed dogs often (sadly) need repair. Scientific studies have shown that kibble-fed dogs have frequent muscle tears and damage that does not happen at anywhere near the same frequency in dogs fed a natural die where they burn fats as a fuel source. That is why mushers run dog's on fat. Again, you suggest putting a bandaid on a bigger problem.

The feed will take over in a couple of hours but since we don't feed till the animal has had a chance to get the body functions back to normal the use of the MD is well justified. As an example I have found that in most cases I can send a bird on long races every week and that is different than we did in the past as it would take them a week or two to get back in condition.

Dogs fed a diet of meat, fat, bone, and organs do not suffer the sort of slumps you describe. The fault is the diet. Carbs do not provide canines with sustainable energy. Fats do.

One other thing you are not being accurate on is the reference to high carbs in a dry feed. That is not necessarily true. You speak of a high protein and fat feed. I don't know how high you are referring to but I think I heard you say something about 40 20 which is probably too high but lets just figure a 30 - 20 ratio. So to break this down we have to consider the feed is 10 percent mineral, 10 percent water. 10 percent fiber, 20 percent fat, and it will take at least 50 percent of any ingredient to carry the 30 percent protein. So those percentages add up to 100 percent, where are the carbs? I agree with thinking outside of the box on some things but when you get outside of the box on actual physical quantities and qualities you often are just misleading people as well as yourself if you actually believe. Progress is learning new things and is not based on disproving what has been learned in the past.

I never said anything about a 40/20 formula. Pro Plan, for example, is almost 50% carbohydrates and a significant portion of the protein is from plant-based sources, not meat.

If your arguement is that kibbles are carbohydrate-free, I'll need to call BS on this one.

Bill

[ezzy333]

Sounds like a good place to end it as I too think we have strayed far afield from what the OP asked.