what is best energy suppliment for your dog?

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:33 pm

Sterndog wrote:When running field trials there are times your dog may have to run multiple times in one day. I am curious what people prefer as an energy suppliment for your dog between braces?

Are we talking about half-hour stakes here, doing two a two a day?
If so, feed a higher fat, higher protein diet, and condition for two-a-days. Then you needn't worry about about supplements. Any well-conditioned dog ought to be able to go an hour a day without any problems. If you're stuck doing a third stake that same day, hope for the best. That's a chance we take when we enter multiple stakes

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:21 pm

I recently just made Pumpkin cookies- with out the vanilla and cinnamon - 1 extra egg and put in 3 cups maltodextrin instead of the sugar. A month of road work I have seen a benefit.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:54 pm

Reckon if you look back this old post ? Some Sugar it and others just don't like the Sugar coat ?

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:34 pm

Not looking at Stamina- looking at muscle recharge for the next day- certainly seeing a diff with the 8 yr old. They get their fat for stamina in their diet.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:53 pm

UglyD wrote:Not looking at Stamina- looking at muscle recharge for the next day- certainly seeing a diff with the 8 yr old. They get their fat for stamina in their diet.

Really ? That's fascinating . Like 'Red Bull' ?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:49 pm

Bill[/quote] Once again you are talking about a different subject than what is being discussed. You are talking what to feed to build muscle while the maltodextrin is used immediately after exercise to aid in recovery so the normal diet will work quicker. I do not think and have never heard an argument about the use of Maltodextrin as it has been researched and tested repeatedly and it is about the only thing that really aids in quick recovery. No one is advocating feeding it but it does work to get the recovery started quickly.

Ezzy[/quote]

I don't doubt that a drink of sugar (maltodextrin) boosts muscle glucose. But (and hate to bring up scientific studies, but) when sled dogs had high levels of muscle glucose from drinking maltodextrin vs slightly lower levels of muscle glucose from eating fat, the sugar fed dogs all faded quickly upon exertion, while the fat-fed dogs produced sustained energy. The fat burning is "natures way." Feeding sugar is unnatural, and it does not sustain energy.

Feeding sugar to dogs has many negative heath consequences.

Bill[/quote]

So why do the top winning Sled Dogs all receive supplements after their run? Those are the top burning fuel dogs.

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:36 pm

Sorry- I am seeing a better recovery for the next day- No not Red Bull- and never said anything to refer to anything like that.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:58 pm

UglyD wrote:Sorry- I am seeing a better recovery for the next day- No not Red Bull- and never said anything to refer to anything like that.

Fantastic ! What's your super diet ?

UglyD wrote:They get their fat for stamina in their diet.

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:18 pm

I have a cucumber in my garden right now that has more tack than you. No matter what I answer you'll have something to say that be it informed or not will matter little.
Diamond Extreme Athlete day in and day out- When I have a cow or pig butchered I have them save decent odds and ends that I freeze and come out during the season. Nothing more and nothing less- there isn't much of an off season for them as far as stamina training goes. They just transition to a different type of activity when bird season is over.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:30 am

Sterndog wrote:When running field trials there are times your dog may have to run multiple times in one day. I am curious what people prefer as an energy suppliment for your dog between braces?

When you say "multiple times in one day" how many times are you referring to?? I've been running my female Brittany in NSTRA trials for 6 years. Generally trials are a Double/Double. Two 30 minute runs on Saturday and two on Sunday. I've never felt the need for a supplement between braces. In fact, many times she seems to run stronger in the second brace of the day. I think it's more about conditioning and feeding the proper food. However, if you were running in some of NSTRA's national trials like the Endurance and your dog advances to the final runs on Saturday your dog could run 5 braces that day with the final brace being 1 hour. I think in that case providing some kind of supplement during the day would be beneficial.

pato y codoniz · Post by **pato y codoniz** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:09 am

Spy Car wrote:
I don't doubt that a drink of sugar (maltodextrin) boosts muscle glucose. But (and hate to bring up scientific studies, but) when sled dogs had high levels of muscle glucose from drinking maltodextrin vs slightly lower levels of muscle glucose from eating fat, the sugar fed dogs all faded quickly upon exertion, while the fat-fed dogs produced sustained energy. The fat burning is "natures way." Feeding sugar is unnatural, and it does not sustain energy.

Feeding sugar to dogs has many negative heath consequences.

Bill

There are 2 basic canine muscle types, determined by the ratio certain muscle fibers, but the extremes of each group are sled dogs and greyhounds. Sled dogs do extremely well on high fat, protein of over 25%, and low carb diet. Greyhounds do well on a high carb, protein above 25%, and lower fat food. The pointing dogs tend toward the Sleddog style while retrievers tend toward the greyhound BUT that is neither here or there.

In the 30 minutes post strenuous exercise, the ingestion of highly absorbable carbs takes advantage of a physiological state that whisks these carbs right into the muscle. If you're smart, you add some pre-digested protein to the mix and piggy back off the carbs to get it whisked into the muscles as well so now you're not just replenishing glycogen stores but also building and repairing muscle. Ingesting fat at this point shuts down the gateway and, ingested over the next couple of hours following exercise, will knock the body out of the subsequent prime muscle building state. I don't feed fat or kibble for almost 3 hours after their being worked hard. However outside the 30 minute post workout window and the following 2 hours of muscle building state, I feed a diet heavy in fat and protein. At minimum, I'm feeding a high quality 35/25 but I'm usually around 40/30 after fat and protein supplementation.

Btw, this isn't theory for me. I've been doing it to myself ever since i read Dr John Ivy's paper and then book so it's been well over a decade and closer to a decade and a half.

It works on all dogs as well. I've done it for years. Even the ones that are extremely efficient at burning fat.

All the best,

PC

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:19 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
I don't doubt that a drink of sugar (maltodextrin) boosts muscle glucose. But (and hate to bring up scientific studies, but) when sled dogs had high levels of muscle glucose from drinking maltodextrin vs slightly lower levels of muscle glucose from eating fat, the sugar fed dogs all faded quickly upon exertion, while the fat-fed dogs produced sustained energy. The fat burning is "natures way." Feeding sugar is unnatural, and it does not sustain energy.

Feeding sugar to dogs has many negative heath consequences.

Bill
There are 2 basic canine muscle types, determined by the ratio certain muscle fibers, but the extremes of each group are sled dogs and greyhounds. Sled dogs do extremely well on high fat, protein of over 25%, and low carb diet. Greyhounds do well on a high carb, protein above 25%, and lower fat food. The pointing dogs tend toward the Sleddog style while retrievers tend toward the greyhound BUT that is neither here or there.

In the 30 minutes post strenuous exercise, the ingestion of highly absorbable carbs takes advantage of a physiological state that whisks these carbs right into the muscle. If you're smart, you add some pre-digested protein to the mix and piggy back off the carbs to get it whisked into the muscles as well so now you're not just replenishing glycogen stores but also building and repairing muscle. Ingesting fat at this point shuts down the gateway and, ingested over the next couple of hours following exercise, will knock the body out of the subsequent prime muscle building state. I don't feed fat or kibble for almost 3 hours after their being worked hard. However outside the 30 minute post workout window and the following 2 hours of muscle building state, I feed a diet heavy in fat and protein. At minimum, I'm feeding a high quality 35/25 but I'm usually around 40/30 after fat and protein supplementation.

Btw, this isn't theory for me. I've been doing it to myself ever since i read Dr John Ivy's paper and then book so it's been well over a decade and closer to a decade and a half.

It works on all dogs as well. I've done it for years. Even the ones that are extremely efficient at burning fat.

All the best,

PC

This may be all well and good but it's probably too technical for most of us. So could you please simplify. I'll give you a scenario and you tell me in layman terms what I should do and the over the counter products to purchase.

Situation: Running NSTRA trials on a typical weekend. Running two 30 minute braces on Saturday and two on Sunday. Problem is that those braces could be any where from 30 minutes apart to 6 hours.

For the past 6 years in NSTRA I have continued to feed my dog her usual dog food but up the ration a day or two before the trial and continue that through the trial. Only feeding once a day, late afternoon or early evening, and only after the dog has totally cooled down for at least an hour after a late run. This has seemed to work well for my dog (Brittany) but I'm always open to some new ideas as long as they make sense.

pato y codoniz · Post by **pato y codoniz** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:03 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:
This may be all well and good but it's probably too technical for most of us. So could you please simplify. I'll give you a scenario and you tell me in layman terms what I should do and the over the counter products to purchase.

Situation: Running NSTRA trials on a typical weekend. Running two 30 minute braces on Saturday and two on Sunday. Problem is that those braces could be any where from 30 minutes apart to 6 hours.

For the past 6 years in NSTRA I have continued to feed my dog her usual dog food but up the ration a day or two before the trial and continue that through the trial. Only feeding once a day, late afternoon or early evening, and only after the dog has totally cooled down for at least an hour after a late run. This has seemed to work well for my dog (Brittany) but I'm always open to some new ideas as long as they make sense.

Sure no problem.

Ingredients:

32 oz Low Sodium Non Fat Chicken or Beef broth.

Maltodextrin ( http://www.amazon.com/Muscle-Feast-Malt ... B008P5QBX2 )

Hydrolyzed Whey Protein ( http://m.us.myprotein.com/sports-nutrit ... 52457.html )

I'd warm the broth (no need to boil, you're just heating to help the powders disolve), pour it into your container, add 1 cup of maltodextrin (~160 grams of carbs), and 1.5 scoops of the hydrolysed whey protein powder (~40g of protein). Put the top on, shake the heck out of it, and refrigerate.

Immediately after each brace, give a quarter of it (~8 fl ozs) in a bowl and, once finished, give water.

If the wait is short, the dog will just burn it for fuel. A win.

If the wait is longer, you'll have replenished glycogen stores. A win.

It is ~440 kcal per day that you're splitting into 2 servings.

Ps. Once you try the above formula, you can adjust the calories up or down as needed but try to maintain 4 grams of carbs to 1 gram of protein.

Dakotazeb · Post by **Dakotazeb** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:50 pm

Thanks. Sounds like a pretty spendy supplement.

pato y codoniz · Post by **pato y codoniz** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:49 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:Thanks. Sounds like a pretty spendy supplement.

You'd get enough for 40 days ($.67) from the Maltodextrin and 100 days from the protein ($.70/day). .I think I pay $.50 for a can of broth.

Under $2 per hunt or competition day is about the cheapest part of my day.

Looks like a lot because you're getting a lot of servings.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:03 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
I don't doubt that a drink of sugar (maltodextrin) boosts muscle glucose. But (and hate to bring up scientific studies, but) when sled dogs had high levels of muscle glucose from drinking maltodextrin vs slightly lower levels of muscle glucose from eating fat, the sugar fed dogs all faded quickly upon exertion, while the fat-fed dogs produced sustained energy. The fat burning is "natures way." Feeding sugar is unnatural, and it does not sustain energy.

Feeding sugar to dogs has many negative heath consequences.

Bill
There are 2 basic canine muscle types, determined by the ratio certain muscle fibers, but the extremes of each group are sled dogs and greyhounds. Sled dogs do extremely well on high fat, protein of over 25%, and low carb diet. Greyhounds do well on a high carb, protein above 25%, and lower fat food. The pointing dogs tend toward the Sleddog style while retrievers tend toward the greyhound BUT that is neither here or there.

In the 30 minutes post strenuous exercise, the ingestion of highly absorbable carbs takes advantage of a physiological state that whisks these carbs right into the muscle. If you're smart, you add some pre-digested protein to the mix and piggy back off the carbs to get it whisked into the muscles as well so now you're not just replenishing glycogen stores but also building and repairing muscle. Ingesting fat at this point shuts down the gateway and, ingested over the next couple of hours following exercise, will knock the body out of the subsequent prime muscle building state. I don't feed fat or kibble for almost 3 hours after their being worked hard. However outside the 30 minute post workout window and the following 2 hours of muscle building state, I feed a diet heavy in fat and protein. At minimum, I'm feeding a high quality 35/25 but I'm usually around 40/30 after fat and protein supplementation.

Btw, this isn't theory for me. I've been doing it to myself ever since i read Dr John Ivy's paper and then book so it's been well over a decade and closer to a decade and a half.

It works on all dogs as well. I've done it for years. Even the ones that are extremely efficient at burning fat.

All the best,

PC

How you have a link to the paper PC?

As to the Greyhounds (and carb/sugar loading) they have a burst on energy and then flop. The sled dog studies showed feeding sugars raised glycogen levels in the muscles short-term, but (like Greyhounds) it created an effemeral boost that lead to a flop in energy. A feild dog needs to go all day, not sprint and flop.

Burning fat, not sugar/carbs, provides the consistent fuel delivery that sustained work requires.

Bill

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:39 am

This is a good debate with good information, but I'm beginning to think my method of feeding the dog his/her regular high energy meal at the end of the day will be sufficient. Possibly adding some Maltodextrin immediately after the workout if it's an extra effort.

My (and my dogs) hunting regimen would fall somewhere in the middle of marathon sled dogging and 1/2 hour sprinting. So, what say you???

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:50 am

SCT wrote:This is a good debate with good information, but I'm beginning to think my method of feeding the dog his/her regular high energy meal at the end of the day will be sufficient. Possibly adding some Maltodextrin immediately after the workout if it's an extra effort.

My (and my dogs) hunting regimen would fall somewhere in the middle of marathon sled dogging and 1/2 hour sprinting. So, what say you???

You are right on. There are very few examples of a dog needing more energy than a regular dog food supplies while their are many examples of dogs eating more than they need. We live in a funny world where we have too much but spend most of our time trying to find something that will undo what we cause. Not only true in our government actions but also in our own little world. It seems to be a product of a country that is blessed with an overabundance in most things we need.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:36 am

SCT wrote:This is a good debate with good information, but I'm beginning to think my method of feeding the dog his/her regular high energy meal at the end of the day will be sufficient. Possibly adding some Maltodextrin immediately after the workout if it's an extra effort.

My (and my dogs) hunting regimen would fall somewhere in the middle of marathon sled dogging and 1/2 hour sprinting. So, what say you???

I think it is even more counterproductive to canine athletetes to feed them a sugar drink after working out than it is to feed a human atheletes a coke post-workout.

Canines were shaped by evolution to efficiently burn fat as a fuel source, not sugar. Dogs fed sugar have energy crashes. Too many dogs already eat a diet with far too great a percentage of calories from carbs, which puts strains on organs like the pancreas and rots teeth. Adding even more sugars means replacing even more calories from carbs rather than supplying dogs with what they really need, which is meat, fat, bones, and organs.

It think it is unwise and counter-productive to good health.

Bill

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:32 am

Well, sugar definitely makes humans crash, I know that much! Really then no real boost is needed in your opinion after a hard workout except maybe a chicken neck or something similar? I've never used Malto so it's not likely I will use it in the future, but I do feed my dogs chicken necks, often instead of their regular kibble meal!

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:50 am

SCT wrote:Well, sugar definitely makes humans crash, I know that much! Really then no real boost is needed in your opinion after a hard workout except maybe a chicken neck or something similar? I've never used Malto so it's not likely I will use it in the future, but I do feed my dogs chicken necks, often instead of their regular kibble meal!

The Maltodetrin has been proven to help recovery if given soon after the exercise. But it wouldn't be good as a supplement later which would seldom be needed the way we work our dogs.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:04 am

SCT wrote:Well, sugar definitely makes humans crash, I know that much! Really then no real boost is needed in your opinion after a hard workout except maybe a chicken neck or something similar? I've never used Malto so it's not likely I will use it in the future, but I do feed my dogs chicken necks, often instead of their regular kibble meal!

Chicken necks (raw) are fine for dogs, they do a great job helping keep the teeth clean and are a good source of natural calcium. However, chicken necks are about 36% bone. If you are feeding nothing but chicken bones as meal replacedent it would not be balanced nutrition (and would have too much calcium which would throw off the important calcium/phosphorus balance).

Far better would to feed a chicken neck (or two) and an approximately equal sized portion of a meat like beef heart. And ideally a small piece of organ (like liver or kidney). The meal should include a portion of good fat.

That would put the meal in the 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ (with 5% being liver, the other 5% being kidney, sweetbreads, spleen, etc) ratios that are considered ideal. Raw oily fish (like mackerel, anchovies, and sardines) are awfully good too.

Getting dogs off carb/sugar/cereal diets increases stamina and builds lean muscle mass.

Bill

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:39 am

I wonder if grains or corn are really that bad for our dogs? From what the old timers tell me dogs used to live longer and they got a lot more grains and corn back then didn't they?? My chicken necks have skin and fat also, all raw! The skin also has some good nutrients. The occasional feeding my dogs get of chicken likely doesn't cause a high calcium problem!

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:01 pm

SCT wrote:I wonder if grains or corn are really that bad for our dogs? From what the old timers tell me dogs used to live longer and they got a lot more grains and corn back then didn't they?? My chicken necks have skin and fat also, all raw! The skin also has some good nutrients. The occasional feeding my dogs get of chicken likely doesn't cause a high calcium problem!

Ye, I doubt an occasionally treat of chicken necks would substantially throw of the balance of a diet. However, frequent meal replacements that were exclusively comprised of chicken necks would not be balanced nutrition, so I mention it.

Even as a port-recovery routine I'd give the dog a portion of red meat along with a bone-in raw chicken piece to up the protein (and phosphorus) to ideal levels.

I don't believe feeding dogs corn/carbs/sugar is good for dogs.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:05 pm

SCT wrote:I wonder if grains or corn are really that bad for our dogs? From what the old timers tell me dogs used to live longer and they got a lot more grains and corn back then didn't they?? My chicken necks have skin and fat also, all raw! The skin also has some good nutrients. The occasional feeding my dogs get of chicken likely doesn't cause a high calcium problem!

Grains are not only good but I think you will find it hard to find a good performance feed that doesn't include them. I know over the years, I have found that the feeds that perform the best will have corn as a second ingredient on their list. mI have seen it enough and have seen the feed research tests that back it up, that I look for it in any feed I use. It works and is cheaper than all of the ritzy ingredients that many small companies that can't produce the volume they would need if they lowered their prices to compete with the major companies. To stay in business you have to have cash flow and you get that by selling higher volume cheaper or low volume at higher prices. That is the biggest factor that governs any companies marketing plan, hence the hype you read and hear about how great X ingredient is and how bad everyone else's feed is such as those with grain in them. they play on the fact that many many people think of a dog as a carnivore when it really isn't. Grains have been a natural feed for domestic dogs for hundreds of years. Turn most of the hype off and do what people have done for years and use some common sense and you will be OK.

Ezzy

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:13 pm

The "hype" all comes from the billion dollar a year pet food industry.

They make money selling cheap cereal to consumers. It is about bottom-line profits, not the health of the animals eating the unnatural diet.

Canines have no requirement for carbohydrates in their diet. They get optimal nutrition form meat, fat, fish, bones, connective tissues, eggs, dairy, and organs.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:24 pm

Spy Car wrote:
SCT wrote:I wonder if grains or corn are really that bad for our dogs? From what the old timers tell me dogs used to live longer and they got a lot more grains and corn back then didn't they?? My chicken necks have skin and fat also, all raw! The skin also has some good nutrients. The occasional feeding my dogs get of chicken likely doesn't cause a high calcium problem!
Ye, I doubt an occasionally treat of chicken necks would substantially throw of the balance of a diet. However, frequent meal replacements that were exclusively comprised of chicken necks would not be balanced nutrition, so I mention it.

Even as a port-recovery routine I'd give the dog a portion of red meat along with a bone-in raw chicken piece to up the protein (and phosphorus) to ideal levels.

I don't believe feeding dogs corn/carbs/sugar is good for dogs.

Bill

And you need to remember raw chicken is low on protein and will not increase the protein percent in your feed much if at all. Depending on what part you would use and how much bone is included along with some other factors raw chicken will average someplace between 12 to maybe 20 percent protein. So when you replace your 30 percent protein dry feed with a 15 percent protein piece of chicken you are not adding protein. I do think the raw meat is good but just not the way to increase protein.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
SCT wrote:I wonder if grains or corn are really that bad for our dogs? From what the old timers tell me dogs used to live longer and they got a lot more grains and corn back then didn't they?? My chicken necks have skin and fat also, all raw! The skin also has some good nutrients. The occasional feeding my dogs get of chicken likely doesn't cause a high calcium problem!
Ye, I doubt an occasionally treat of chicken necks would substantially throw of the balance of a diet. However, frequent meal replacements that were exclusively comprised of chicken necks would not be balanced nutrition, so I mention it.

Even as a port-recovery routine I'd give the dog a portion of red meat along with a bone-in raw chicken piece to up the protein (and phosphorus) to ideal levels.

I don't believe feeding dogs corn/carbs/sugar is good for dogs.

Bill

And you need to remember raw chicken is low on protein and will not increase the protein percent in your feed much if at all. Depending on what part you would use and how much bone is included along with some other factors raw chicken will average someplace between 12 to maybe 20 percent protein. So when you replace your 30 percent protein dry feed with a 15 percent protein piece of chicken you are not adding protein. I do think the raw meat is good but just not the way to increase protein.

Raw meat and poultry is "lower in protein" in percentage terms to dry kibble because the percentages measured include moisture (water). It is not an "apples to apples" comparison, but one that misleads by comparing moisture rich proteins with dried product.

Meat is the best and most complete source of protein for canines.

Bill

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:39 pm

I agree with ezzy, that corn seems to be a really good carb, but only from my own observations. I wonder if it doesn't make the dogs run a bit hotter though??? Meaning, are their organs working a bit more to regulate the intake of it? Or, is raw meat and bone easier for their system??

I am feeding Purina Pro Plan right now, I switch between a few different kibbles throughout the year. But, I can't help but believe this Pro Plan Sport, all life stages, is a quality food simply because of the small firm stools my dogs have on it. Lots of corn as a second ingredient. The only other food I've found that creates solid little turds is raw hamburger or solid, raw venison muscle meat. Still, the question begs, what long term food will my high energy dogs live the longest on and still have the strength and stamina?

Steve

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:03 pm

I also wonder about the age of sled dogs? How old do they usually get? I don't know how much kibble they feed, but I've seen where the guys with sled dogs cook up a stew with salmon and whatever. Seems like a main diet once the salmon are available, which is when their racing season is beginning!

Steve

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:24 pm

SCT wrote:I agree with ezzy, that corn seems to be a really good carb, but only from my own observations. I wonder if it doesn't make the dogs run a bit hotter though??? Meaning, are their organs working a bit more to regulate the intake of it? Or, is raw meat and bone easier for their system??

I am feeding Purina Pro Plan right now, I switch between a few different kibbles throughout the year. But, I can't help but believe this Pro Plan Sport, all life stages, is a quality food simply because of the small firm stools my dogs have on it. Lots of corn as a second ingredient. The only other food I've found that creates solid little turds is raw hamburger or solid, raw venison muscle meat. Still, the question begs, what long term food will my high energy dogs live the longest on and still have the strength and stamina?

Steve

High cereal diets put a huge loads on the pancreas. The two main jobs of the pancreas are to produce insulin and digestive enzymes. Because dogs did not evolve to eating the massive amounts of simple sugars in kibble, the pancreas is stressed to produce sufficient insulin, and the dog has to ride the ups-and-downs of the sugar blues that far exceed what humans (who are far more able to process carbs/sugars) have to deal with to maintain blood sugar balances. The other role of the pancreas is to produce digestive enzymes. Carbs require the enzyme Amylase. Omnivores (like humans) have Amylase in their salivia to predigest starch.

Dogs lack salivatory Amylase. Dogs, relative to Wolves, have produced some ability to produce Amylase in the pancreas, but the amounts of starch in the modern kibble diet stress the pancreas (on top of the insulin production). This sets dogs up for an inflamed pancreas (pancreatitis) which is often triggered by a very high fat meal, but is preconditioned by a stressed organ.

Raw fed dogs eating a natural diet rarely suffer from pancreatitis, or from bloat (both of which are deadly. Raw fed dog generally are not flatulent, have excellent coats, learn hard muscles, fresh breath, and clean white teeth. They also have energy to go all day. Fat is the best fuel for dogs, not carbs. Animal protein is the best for dogs, not incomplete corn gluten meal.

Bill

ETA: If you want to see "small stools" check out the results of a raw diet. Kibble fed stool looks like huge plops in comparison.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:39 pm

SCT wrote:I agree with ezzy, that corn seems to be a really good carb, but only from my own observations. I wonder if it doesn't make the dogs run a bit hotter though??? Meaning, are their organs working a bit more to regulate the intake of it? Or, is raw meat and bone easier for their system??

I am feeding Purina Pro Plan right now, I switch between a few different kibbles throughout the year. But, I can't help but believe this Pro Plan Sport, all life stages, is a quality food simply because of the small firm stools my dogs have on it. Lots of corn as a second ingredient. The only other food I've found that creates solid little turds is raw hamburger or solid, raw venison muscle meat. Still, the question begs, what long term food will my high energy dogs live the longest on and still have the strength and stamina?

Steve

I can't answer your question but a hint might be if you fed 100 dogs the same exact feed they would all live to very different ages and the same would be true if you fed them different feeds. Age is pretty much predetermined with feed having a small part into the equation. Conditioning, temperature, housing, diseases all play as much a part and probably more. I have never and probably never will eat or feed my dog anything on the basis of how long will we live. And old saying is doing everything right doesn't make you live longer, it just seems that way. There is a lot of truth to that. Eat, drink, and make Mary because tomorrow you may die and I want to go out happy. Kind of think our dogs live like that also.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:16 pm

The most fit 65 year old I ever knew ran marathons, raised his own organic vegetables, and had vigor, energy, and the sort of lean strong body anyone might envy.

Then one winter he traveled to Minnesota, hit a patch of black ice, went off the road and was killed. You just never know.

I figure you try to live the best and most vital life you can while you're alive. There are no guarantees. But by eating a healthful diet one is probably going to enjoy better health and vitality than eating crappy food. Same for dogs.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:13 pm

Spy Car wrote:The most fit 65 year old I ever knew ran marathons, raised his own organic vegetables, and had vigor, energy, and the sort of lean strong body anyone might envy.

Then one winter he traveled to Minnesota, hit a patch of black ice, went off the road and was killed. You just never know.

I figure you try to live the best and most vital life you can while you're alive. There are no guarantees. But by eating a healthful diet one is probably going to enjoy better health and vitality than eating crappy food. Same for dogs.

Bill

Health and vitality are great but a good Bloody Mary is better. My actual experience has been the people worrying about eating right and exercising usually die of a heart attack from all of their worrying. Just seems to always happen that way Maybe the problem is we really don't always know what is good for us and I am sure many have ne idea what is good for their dog.

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:19 pm

ezzy333 wrote: Health and vitality are great but a good Bloody Mary is better. My actual experience has been the people worrying about eating right and exercising usually die of a heart attack from all of their worrying. Just seems to always happen that way Maybe the problem is we really don't always know what is good for us and I am sure many have ne idea what is good for their dog.

pmsl

Gravy is just great

Remmag · Post by **Remmag** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:15 pm

I feed 4Health Performance a 30% P/20% F kibble. Would adding some high fat ground beef be a good idea? If not, what else? Thanks.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:57 pm

Remmag wrote:I feed 4Health Performance a 30% P/20% F kibble. Would adding some high fat ground beef be a good idea? If not, what else? Thanks.

A good idea, up to a point. Despite any criticisms I might have of the pet food industry (which are many), one thing commercial formulas get right is making sure that the calcium/phosphorus ratios meet the nutritional standard.

Meat is high in phosphorus. Feeding extra meat alone could, if the percentages of the total get large enough, throw off the nutritional balance.

When raw-feeders follow a Prey Model Diet, we feed 80% meat (including fats and connective tissues), 10% edible bone, and 10% organs (half of that being liver). Feeding 10% edible bone (such as found in raw chicken parts like drumsticks and thighs) keeps the calcium/phosphorus ratios ideal. Meat alone would not be a balanced diet.

Parenthetically, feeding meat as whole pieces (as opposed to ground) gives dog an opportunity to gnaw and chew (as does eating edible bone). The chewing, and lack of carbohydrates in a raw diet, helps keep teeth sparkling white and breath fresh. It is also very relaxing for the dogs on a mental level.

So, fresh meat is a good thing, but don't overdue it without compensating with edible bones and, if possible, small amounts of mixed organs. Organs are loaded with vital nutrients in a bio-available state.

The dogs I know, including my own, that eat an exclusively raw diet glow with health, have great muscle tones, soft and glossy fur, clean teeth, and have the stamina to go all day.

Bill

polmaise · Post by **polmaise** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:14 pm

Why do they like to eat their own and others feces?...Must be at the very least have something they like ?...Does it give them energy or supplement ?

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:34 pm

I'm just an ole wild bird hunter, I will feed my dogs some uncooked hot dogs or half a lunchmeat sandwich before we hit the road to hunt and during a break or drive to the next hunting spot.Might sound hillbilly compared to all that fancy stuff mentioned, but it's worked fo me for many years and my dogs like it.

P&PGunsmith · Post by **P&PGunsmith** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:51 am

Glycocharge and the old purina performance bars both worked well for me, now just glycocharge as I have not tried the new performance bars.
Of course all of this doesn't mean anything for a 1 day hunt, but 4 or 5 days chasing birds is when this comes into play. For a one day trial I can only tell you that if fed good food you don't really need anything. For multiple days hunting or trialing it is a different story. In the old days the dogs would get up and hunt consecutive days but were very sore and took a bit to get going again. What I have noticed with the use of the maltodextrin products is when opening the dog box the next morning the dogs would jump out ready to go like nothing happened the day before. I like that because it aids in your chances early in the morning and who likes to see there dog barely be able to climb out of the box in the morning.
Has anyone tried making cookies out of glycocharge? I would be interested in that.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:06 am

P&PGunsmith wrote:Glycocharge and the old purina performance bars both worked well for me, now just glycocharge as I have not tried the new performance bars.
Of course all of this doesn't mean anything for a 1 day hunt, but 4 or 5 days chasing birds is when this comes into play. For a one day trial I can only tell you that if fed good food you don't really need anything. For multiple days hunting or trialing it is a different story. In the old days the dogs would get up and hunt consecutive days but were very sore and took a bit to get going again. What I have noticed with the use of the maltodextrin products is when opening the dog box the next morning the dogs would jump out ready to go like nothing happened the day before. I like that because it aids in your chances early in the morning and who likes to see there dog barely be able to climb out of the box in the morning.
Has anyone tried making cookies out of glycocharge? I would be interested in that.

A lot of that soreness and stiffness was caused by being out of shape. the fact that more people keep their dogs conditioned has solved most of the problem and the Glycocharge as also aided.

Spy Car · Post by **Spy Car** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:23 am

Multiple studies have shown that feeding glucose stimulated a momentary bump in blood glucose, but then the dogs fade and lose energy. This is the opposite effect of feeding appropriate levels of fat, which is a source of sustained energy for dogs.

You see the same results in the field. Dogs were shaped by evolution to be highly efficient fat-burners, and were not shaped to run on refined sugars. Dogs fed sugars have an energy spike and then crash.

Bill

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:53 pm

Glycocharge or any other sugar is not recommended as an energy boost but are used to help muscles to start the recharge immediately after exercise. From what I have read it has to be uses very soon after the exercise or it loses it's effectiveness. Fats ae the primary source of energy but a dog pretty much runs on what it ate yesterday so food given the day of the exercise is pretty much useless for an energy boost.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Ezzy is right, Glycocharge and similar products do not give a boost, the enhance recovery. It must be given immediately after exercise ceases, after about 15 minutes, you might as well pour it on the ground.

If you only hunt for two or three days at a stretch, you will not notice the benefits (although they are there), but if you hunt for more than three days, the results are phenomenal. However, it is not a magic elixir, nor is there none, that will make a poorly conditioned dog super dog.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:34 pm

If a dog that's fed a decent diet can't run a couple of 30 minute braces in a forty acre field, I'd suspect the problem is a poor conditioning program rather than lack of/excessive meat, fat, carbs, grain, amylase, phosphorus, chicken necks, salmon, or whatever anyone thinks they need to supplement with.

Spycar Bill, curiosity makes me ask what type of performance or exertion do your kibble-free dogs do? If we compare diets, and talk about pros and cons, it would help to compare performance also, wouldn't it? No snark intended.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:50 pm

shags wrote:If a dog that's fed a decent diet can't run a couple of 30 minute braces in a forty acre field, I'd suspect the problem is a poor conditioning program rather than lack of/excessive meat, fat, carbs, grain, amylase, phosphorus, chicken necks, salmon, or whatever anyone thinks they need to supplement with.

Spycar Bill, curiosity makes me ask what type of performance or exertion do your kibble-free dogs do? If we compare diets, and talk about pros and cons, it would help to compare performance also, wouldn't it? No snark intended.

I sure agree with you.My dogs have the run of my fenced in back yard,gives them room to walk and run around all day,keeps them in shape.They can hunt all day and not run out of gas,they get a little tired but they are still hunting good.I know that it's not possible for everyone,and sure not for trailers that have lots of dogs.It would be hard for any dog to live in a pen,and then be expected to get out and compete like a top athlete.Not pointing any blame at anyone as I know it's quite a job to try and keep a bunch of dogs in shape,but I too suspect a dog running out of gas has way more to do with conditioning than their diet,I think most people are feeding their dogs adequate food.

AlPastor · Post by **AlPastor** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:04 am

Maltodextrin may work but does it work the best?

If you talk to the sled dog guys, even the sprinters, they'll tell you that fat is the best energy source. Even when just looking for a quick boost of energy, they'll use a couple of tablespoons of a solidified fat blend or just plain unrefined coconut oil.

There is no greater test of endurance, strength, and recovery in the canine world that distance sledding. They feed a lot of fat on on the trail and lots of water.

BTW science has shown that sled dogs that eat lots of fat during exercise, actually replenish their glycogen muscle and liver stores by eating lots of fat.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:24 am

The fat fuel and glycogen fuel sources do not operate exclusively of each other, and the condition of the dog determines how they metabolize fuel sources.

The glycogen tank is small with a valve that opens easy. The fat tank is larger, but not as easy to open the valve for most dogs. As the level of fitness increases, a dog is more prone to tapping his fat tank and conserving its glycogen reserves. To make the conversion, a dog needs to be pushed hard for an hour plus each day for about six weeks.

The high fat diet Al eluded to is essential not only for the nutritional needs, but has been shown to reduced injuries in hard working canines. I have always been under the impression that glycogen replenishment came from complex carbohydrates rather than fat, or at least rapid replenishment. Several years back, it was believed that if a dog was exercised, and then put up, it takes five days to refuel his glycogen tank. Administering glycogen supplements within the time frame would replenish to nearly 100% percent within 24 hours.

A good indicator of glycogen depletion is shivering and in a reasonably fit dog shows up around day four of hard hunting. Most hunters are going to crash and burn long before their dogs deplete their glycogen reserves.

P&PGunsmith · Post by **P&PGunsmith** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:
P&PGunsmith wrote:Glycocharge and the old purina performance bars both worked well for me, now just glycocharge as I have not tried the new performance bars.
Of course all of this doesn't mean anything for a 1 day hunt, but 4 or 5 days chasing birds is when this comes into play. For a one day trial I can only tell you that if fed good food you don't really need anything. For multiple days hunting or trialing it is a different story. In the old days the dogs would get up and hunt consecutive days but were very sore and took a bit to get going again. What I have noticed with the use of the maltodextrin products is when opening the dog box the next morning the dogs would jump out ready to go like nothing happened the day before. I like that because it aids in your chances early in the morning and who likes to see there dog barely be able to climb out of the box in the morning.
Has anyone tried making cookies out of glycocharge? I would be interested in that.
A lot of that soreness and stiffness was caused by being out of shape. the fact that more people keep their dogs conditioned has solved most of the problem and the Glycocharge as also aided.

I have always kept my dogs in shape. The stuff just works. most people cannot condition for a 5 hour hunt. you can try and do your best but most don't have that kind of time. even national champion professional trainers I have discussed say that you can condition for a trial , but you can only do your best to get a dog ready for a 5 hour hunt. at that point it comes down to good food and how much heart, desire, breeding and the dog being able to pace himself at a point.

I also read in one of the threads that the maltodextrin doesn't work for later in the day (cant find the quote) but if given right away after a hunt and you plan to go out again that day. then it helps recover and helps for later that day or the next.
i was thinking that this was a bit off from the original question but its really not.

AlPastor · Post by **AlPastor** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:13 am

Luminary Setters wrote:The fat fuel and glycogen fuel sources do not operate exclusively of each other, and the condition of the dog determines how they metabolize fuel sources.

The glycogen tank is small with a valve that opens easy. The fat tank is larger, but not as easy to open the valve for most dogs. As the level of fitness increases, a dog is more prone to tapping his fat tank and conserving its glycogen reserves. To make the conversion, a dog needs to be pushed hard for an hour plus each day for about six weeks.

The high fat diet Al eluded to is essential not only for the nutritional needs, but has been shown to reduced injuries in hard working canines. I have always been under the impression that glycogen replenishment came from complex carbohydrates rather than fat, or at least rapid replenishment. Several years back, it was believed that if a dog was exercised, and then put up, it takes five days to refuel his glycogen tank. Administering glycogen supplements within the time frame would replenish to nearly 100% percent within 24 hours.

A good indicator of glycogen depletion is shivering and in a reasonably fit dog shows up around day four of hard hunting. Most hunters are going to crash and burn long before their dogs deplete their glycogen reserves.

In the studies done on sled dogs, it has been shown that they are capable of taking fat in the blood stream and metabolizing them directly at the cellular level because of the enormous number of mitochondria in canines. They've shown that canines ingesting fat during periods of high physical stress, not only do not deplete the glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, they're using fat for energy and, at the same time, to fill up the glycogen tanks. It is why sled dogs don't show muscular degeneration despite the huge physical stress over, in many instances, 8 to 10 days. In other words, they don't need to recover because there is no leeching of protein from the cells or formation of lactic acid and their glycogen stores are never depleted. As an aside, the sled dog guys supplement with lots of vitamin E and other antioxidants because of the oxidative stress involved with the hyper efficient metabolism of several thousand calories of fat.

The reason why I believe that we do have to determine which is better is because they're mutually exclusive pathways to glycogen replenishment. The maltodextrin method needs to be done immediately after exercise and fat shuts down the process. The fat method requires a diet that is very high in fat to be activated (sled dogs eat 10k to 12k calories a day during a race with the vast majority of it coming from fat). I don't think you could or would want to use both methods.

Ps. Along with a much larger and much greater number of mitochondria, studies have shown that canine athletes have nearly 4x to 5x the VO2MAX than human athletes so I'm not sure if we should be equating human physiological behavior to canines.