Cruciate injuries

[dr tim]

This is a very good animated video on cruciate injuries in dogs. Hope it helps make this problem more understandable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNymdzyRavs

[Spy Car]

Fascinating. Thank you for posting that.

Unfortunately cruciate ligament injuries have become all too common in dogs. What was not mentioned is the role early spay-neuter has in creating many of the problems in the first place.

Bill

[MonsterDad]

Fascinating. Thank you for posting that.

Unfortunately cruciate ligament injuries have become all too common in dogs. What was not mentioned is the role early spay-neuter has in creating many of the problems in the first place.

Bill

Bill, be careful challenging Dr. Hunt. We know you like doing that since you are a Berkeley grad.

He was voted America's Favorite Vet by the AVMA and is an expert in sports injuries. You may know him from the many Iditarod victories under his care and feeding.

http://drtims.com/

[Spy Car]

Fascinating. Thank you for posting that.

Unfortunately cruciate ligament injuries have become all too common in dogs. What was not mentioned is the role early spay-neuter has in creating many of the problems in the first place.

Bill

Bill, be careful challenging Dr. Hunt. We know you like doing that since you are a Berkeley grad.

He was voted America's Favorite Vet by the AVMA and is an expert in sports injuries. You may know him from the many Iditarod victories under his care and feeding.

http://drtims.com/

Who is challenging him? The link between early spay-neuter and cruciate ligament injuries is in the literature. I'm sure Dr Tim doesn't dispute that.

Bill

[dr tim]

The recent studies do indicate dogs that were neutered at 6 months did have a roughly twice higher incidence of ACL tears and also lymphoma in goldens. Anything larger than 60 pounds or so I recommend waiting until they are 10-12 months of age before neutering. Obesity, weekend warrior, genetics and bad luck all factor in as well.

[MonsterDad]

Dogs neutered early tend to be a little taller and that could be a reason why the injury is more common, longer bone on the same joint equals more torque, equals a greater chance of injury.

Just my thoughts.....

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I believe that the loss of hormones leads to weaker muscles and Tendons which makes the dog more prone to injuries. Just my thoughts.

[Spy Car]

Dogs neutered early tend to be a little taller and that could be a reason why the injury is more common, longer bone on the same joint equals more torque, equals a greater chance of injury.

Just my thoughts.....

It is also speculated that since hormones are involved in regulating bone growth plate closures that some bones not only grow longer, but grow disproportionately to one another (relative to intact animals). So the alignment is off, causing more incidence of hip dysphasias and tendon problems.

Bill

[Spy Car]

The recent studies do indicate dogs that were neutered at 6 months did have a roughly twice higher incidence of ACL tears and also lymphoma in goldens. Anything larger than 60 pounds or so I recommend waiting until they are 10-12 months of age before neutering. Obesity, weekend warrior, genetics and bad luck all factor in as well.

The obesity risk factor is also exacerbated by early spay-neuter. I personally know owners of dozens of dogs who have required one (and often two) surgeries to fix these sort of tears. The cost of typical surgeries here is around $6,000 and climb northward to $10,000. But here is very little discussion of the root causes of the problem.

Bad luck is one thing, but having laws on the books that require spay-neuter by age 4 months, as is the case in the city where I live (a law I evade) or "rescue" policies that have dogs as young as 8 weeks being neutered, is just taking a tremendous risk with the health of individual dogs in the name of population control.

I think we need to figure out ways to deal with the pet population problem without harming the health of dogs owned by responsible individuals. Voices like yours could help tilt the balance toward more reasonable municipal policies that respect canine health, and not just the mantra of people like Bob Barker and PETA.

Bill

[cjhills]

Here we go again.
This is pretty much all speculation. Millions of dogs are neutered at 6 months with absolutely no problems. The UC Davis research is bogus at best. Why do you think they use Goldens. Cruciate injuries are much more likely hereditary and the risk is increased by overweight and under exercised dogs.
There is no logical reason for neutering females before 8 to 10 months and males a bit later. There very likely are some growth issues. In females neutering before the first heat period pretty much eliminates mammory cancer does eliminate the risk of Pyometra. Both of which are much higher risk and more dangerous than Cruciate tears. Intact males probably do not have more health risks than neutered males.
Personally I have only seen one Cruciate tear in a well bred bird dog that was in good condition. It was caused by jumping out of a moving truck.....Cj

[ezzy333]

Here we go again.
This is pretty much all speculation. Millions of dogs are neutered at 6 months with absolutely no problems. The UC Davis research is bogus at best. Why do you think they use Goldens. Cruciate injuries are much more likely hereditary and the risk is increased by overweight and under exercised dogs.
There is no logical reason for neutering females before 8 to 10 months and males a bit later. There very likely are some growth issues. In females neutering before the first heat period pretty much eliminates mammory cancer does eliminate the risk of Pyometra. Both of which are much higher risk and more dangerous than Cruciate tears. Intact males probably do not have more health risks than neutered males.
Personally I have only seen one Cruciate tear in a well bred bird dog that was in good condition. It was caused by jumping out of a moving truck.....Cj

Dr. Tim just reported recent studies does indicate early neutering is a problem and you immediately report the whole concept is bogus and your opinion is right on. Wonder how this happened without any of us being aware that research is bogus.

[cjhills]

Here we go again.
This is pretty much all speculation. Millions of dogs are neutered at 6 months with absolutely no problems. The UC Davis research is bogus at best. Why do you think they use Goldens. Cruciate injuries are much more likely hereditary and the risk is increased by overweight and under exercised dogs.
There is no logical reason for neutering females before 8 to 10 months and males a bit later. There very likely are some growth issues. In females neutering before the first heat period pretty much eliminates mammory cancer does eliminate the risk of Pyometra. Both of which are much higher risk and more dangerous than Cruciate tears. Intact males probably do not have more health risks than neutered males.
Personally I have only seen one Cruciate tear in a well bred bird dog that was in good condition. It was caused by jumping out of a moving truck.....Cj

Dr. Tim just reported recent studies does indicate early neutering is a problem and you immediately report the whole concept is bogus and your opinion is right on. Wonder how this happened without any of us being aware that research is bogus.

I may have missed something, but I did not see a recent study in the post. I never said the whole concept is bogus. I think it is logical and very likely that there are some issues with very early neutering. But the UC Davis research proves nothing. If you read it you will see that they divided the dogs into small groups. In some studies the neutered group had twice as many tears ligament. What they do not say is one group had two and another had four. Twice as many. They also Did not consider the life style of the dogs. Much more likely that the Neutered dogs were over fed house dog. Also a good share of intact working dogs are put down rather than having thousands of dollars spent on them at the vet. Way to many things enter in to the picture to read too much into one small study. This is of course My opinion just as every thing you post is yours, but please read my posts before you comment.
You may notice I do not disagree with the concept just the research and exaggerated results.................Cj

[Spy Car]

There is little doubt in my mind that being obese is a big risk factor for dogs tearing a ligament. But early spay-neuter is a big factor in obesity and undermines muscle development.

Working dogs may (or may not) get the very expensive surgeries many pampered pooches do, but putting down a dog who is injured has cost too. Lost hours (years) of training. The expenses that come with that training being lost. Not to mention the emotional costs of losing a beloved pet.

These are bad injuries any way you slice it.

Bill

[Sharon]

As Spy Car said "injuries happen anyway you slice it."

My setter has had 2 TPLO surgeries. Once you do one leg , the odds of having to do the other greatly increases.

..................not neutered early, never obese, not a weekend -warrior, excellent pedigree/genetics , but bad luck ? Definitely.
..............................

heads -up:
As you already know, with dogs there is always something waiting to happen. My setter got her collar caught in the crate last night and would have suffocated if I wasn't a light sleeper. Who thinks to take the collar off when you put a dog in a crate?

[Spy Car]

As Spy Car said "injuries happen anyway you slice it."

My setter has had 2 TPLO surgeries. Once you do one leg , the odds of having to do the other greatly increases.

..................not neutered early, never obese, not a weekend -warrior, excellent pedigree/genetics , but bad luck ? Definitely.
..............................

heads -up:
As you already know, with dogs there is always something waiting to happen. My setter got her collar caught in the crate last night and would have suffocated if I wasn't a light sleeper. Who thinks to take the collar off when you put a dog in a crate?

Sorry to hear about your dog. Do you mind if I ask how well she came back after the two surgeries? Many people I know have the same experience as you, first one leg goes, then the other.

Bill

[ezzy333]

It is almost always the case that they come in pairs. I have trouble thinking obese has much to do with it, though I used to question that, But seldom if ever will you see an obese dog in the field or involved in much of any activity. And we do know neutering has little to do with obesity, I am convince that it does affect muscling and definitely affects bone growth when done early and if you study the result of that extra growth it changes the angle and leverage on the tendons. My conclusion is that is the main culprit other than the occasional blow out that just happens that can possibly be caused by lack of conditioning but certainly not always.

[Sharon]

As Spy Car said "injuries happen anyway you slice it."

My setter has had 2 TPLO surgeries. Once you do one leg , the odds of having to do the other greatly increases.

..................not neutered early, never obese, not a weekend -warrior, excellent pedigree/genetics , but bad luck ? Definitely.
..............................

heads -up:
As you already know, with dogs there is always something waiting to happen. My setter got her collar caught in the crate last night and would have suffocated if I wasn't a light sleeper. Who thinks to take the collar off when you put a dog in a crate?

Sorry to hear about your dog. Do you mind if I ask how well she came back after the two surgeries? Many people I know have the same experience as you, first one leg goes, then the other.

Bill

Recovered fully after a couple weeks. Did my own rehab. Followed the Dr's" instructions exactly. Never any problem again. Slight limp for a minute or two when getting up the next day if we have really had a long, hard workout the day before. .... of course I'm the same.

[Spy Car]

As Spy Car said "injuries happen anyway you slice it."

My setter has had 2 TPLO surgeries. Once you do one leg , the odds of having to do the other greatly increases.

..................not neutered early, never obese, not a weekend -warrior, excellent pedigree/genetics , but bad luck ? Definitely.
..............................

heads -up:
As you already know, with dogs there is always something waiting to happen. My setter got her collar caught in the crate last night and would have suffocated if I wasn't a light sleeper. Who thinks to take the collar off when you put a dog in a crate?

Sorry to hear about your dog. Do you mind if I ask how well she came back after the two surgeries? Many people I know have the same experience as you, first one leg goes, then the other.

Bill

Recovered fully after a couple weeks. Did my own rehab. Followed the Dr's" instructions exactly. Never any problem again. Slight limp for a minute or two when getting up the next day if we have really had a long, hard workout the day before. .... of course I'm the same.

I hear what you about "us" being creaky after long days. I'm getting to the age, but I've got a young pup...so out we go.

Good to hear you've had good success with the surgery.

Bill

[Eric]

I've heard and read that the final stability of the knee (regardless of the type of surgery performed) actually comes from the formation of scar tissue.
Lots of dogs who have had the TTA, tightrope, swivel lock, that the "fishing line" breaks and the knee is still stable, due to scar tissue.
I have an acquaintance who has a dog with a ruptured CCL and they went to a Veterinarian who used Cold laser and no surgery. The outcome was just as good as surgery. Was this due to the formation of scar tissue ? I don't know, but they are going through exercise rehab now for the muscle atrophy that always accompanies CCL tears.
The dog is doing fine without surgery.