Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

pato y codoniz
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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:07 pm

Sharon wrote: If you are getting private messages complaining about Ezzy , that says something about you.
What does it say? Please elaborate. Thanks

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Sharon » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:50 pm

PM sent
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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by birddogger » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:11 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
Neil wrote:I think Ezzy performs his thankless job well, and we often disagree.
I don't have a problem with him because, while he is opinionated, he doesn't directly censor differing opinions.

However, every time I get into a food thread discussion, I get private messages for others that pretty clearly feel indirectly censored because they're intimidated about arguing with an outspoken mod.
Or maybe because they know he is highly educated/experienced in the dog food industry and nutrition, not to mention years of experience of owning, caring for and feeding dogs.While you and the people you are talking about cannot back up claims with any evidence or proof and in many cases, not even experience.

Charlie
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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by clink83 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:33 pm

Neil wrote:Someone needs to come up with a definition for better.

Field Champion Odyssey's Tequaila Azul has been fed ProPlan Lamb and Rice and only that for 15 years, he has 41 horseback adult wins, All-Age and Shooting Dog, including wins against pointers. In addition, he hunted an average of 60 days a year, retiring at 13. The only time he needed veterinarian care was for a cut ear. He never missed a trial or hunt, was never sick. Beautiful coat and clear eyes, with a happy, loving disposition.

So if I had fed him better would he have won more, hunted harder, and would live longer? Do you guys have many 17 year old dogs?

His kennelmates have averaged 13 and 1/2 years, all hunted and many trialed, all died of old age.

So please tell me about your better results with your better feed.
I'm not going to start a fight over dog food ingredients per se, but if you think a dog that is only fed kibble is anywhere near its optimum performance nutrition-wise you are barking up the wrong tree from the get go.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:52 pm

birddogger wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
Neil wrote:I think Ezzy performs his thankless job well, and we often disagree.
I don't have a problem with him because, while he is opinionated, he doesn't directly censor differing opinions.

However, every time I get into a food thread discussion, I get private messages for others that pretty clearly feel indirectly censored because they're intimidated about arguing with an outspoken mod.
Or maybe because they know he is highly educated/experienced in the dog food industry and nutrition, not to mention years of experience of owning, caring for and feeding dogs.While you and the people you are talking about cannot back up claims with any evidence or proof and in many cases, not even experience.

Charlie
I can tolerate a difference of opinion but lying or stupidity are things I don't do so well with....

I've literally linked to independent scientific studies that have shown that corn gluten meal is inferior to the animals based protein concentrates.

I'm the only one providing scientific fact and not relying on some false appeal to authority so get it straight.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:23 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
birddogger wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:I don't have a problem with him because, while he is opinionated, he doesn't directly censor differing opinions.

However, every time I get into a food thread discussion, I get private messages for others that pretty clearly feel indirectly censored because they're intimidated about arguing with an outspoken mod.
Or maybe because they know he is highly educated/experienced in the dog food industry and nutrition, not to mention years of experience of owning, caring for and feeding dogs.While you and the people you are talking about cannot back up claims with any evidence or proof and in many cases, not even experience.

Charlie
I can tolerate a difference of opinion but lying or stupidity are things I don't do so well with....

I've literally linked to independent scientific studies that have shown that corn gluten meal is inferior to the animals based protein concentrates.

I'm the only one providing scientific fact and not relying on some false appeal to authority so get it straight.
A question for you and a request, will you tell us what Corn Gluten is and how it is made? And could you provide those links that show any protein that are inferior to other sources? Remember, not just different but inferior. Oh, by the way I missed your scientific facts sine all I have ever seen is you posting what you are saying is a scientific fact and there probably are a few on here that don't believe it if they don't see it. Hard to believe but true.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Neil » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:29 pm

clink83 wrote:
Neil wrote:Someone needs to come up with a definition for better.

Field Champion Odyssey's Tequaila Azul has been fed ProPlan Lamb and Rice and only that for 15 years, he has 41 horseback adult wins, All-Age and Shooting Dog, including wins against pointers. In addition, he hunted an average of 60 days a year, retiring at 13. The only time he needed veterinarian care was for a cut ear. He never missed a trial or hunt, was never sick. Beautiful coat and clear eyes, with a happy, loving disposition.

So if I had fed him better would he have won more, hunted harder, and would live longer? Do you guys have many 17 year old dogs?

His kennelmates have averaged 13 and 1/2 years, all hunted and many trialed, all died of old age.

So please tell me about your better results with your better feed.
I'm not going to start a fight over dog food ingredients per se, but if you think a dog that is only fed kibble is anywhere near its optimum performance nutrition-wise you are barking up the wrong tree from the get go.
So please answer my questions, tell us about your dog's accoumplishments, not which tree to bark up.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by clink83 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:48 pm

]It's not about your ego, its about basic nutritional science. A sample size of one dog is bs, be it mine or yours. Tell me this, do you know your dogs or any others VO2 max? Lactic thresholds? No? Do you know how long your dogs can run before they deplete the glycogen in their liver?

Any halfassed athlete knows that the nutritional requirements for training, recovery, and competing are not the same. You're just being obtuse. A simple literature search:

http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/79/5/1601.short
http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2686S.short


By basic science the pro plan you keep pimping doesn't meet the nutritional levels that actual science says are needed. In fact, I don't know of any kibble that really does.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by clink83 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:18 pm

Here are more data, since you can only post 2 URLS per post.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/10407468
Plenty more research to read:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=sl ... _sdt=0%2C5

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by birddogger » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:49 am

I can tolerate a difference of opinion but lying or stupidity are things I don't do so well with....

I've literally linked to independent scientific studies that have shown that corn gluten meal is inferior to the animals based protein concentrates.

I'm the only one providing scientific fact and not relying on some false appeal to authority so get it straight.
So now we are liars? That is something I for one do not do well with. As far as studies go, anybody can find a study to support their claim on just about any subject. I prefer to go by the proof all around me and the nation and the 40 plus years I have of feeding and working with performance dogs. "False appeal to authority"..Really? I don't even know what that means. Have you even worked with athletic dogs, hunting hard for several days straight or competing with them in any type of competitive trials? And BTW, resorting to name calling will get you no where and does not help your credibility at all.

Charlie
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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:53 am

birddogger wrote:
I can tolerate a difference of opinion but lying or stupidity are things I don't do so well with....

I've literally linked to independent scientific studies that have shown that corn gluten meal is inferior to the animals based protein concentrates.

I'm the only one providing scientific fact and not relying on some false appeal to authority so get it straight.
So now we are liars? That is something I for one do not do well with. As far as studies go, anybody can find a study to support their claim on just about any subject. I prefer to go by the proof all around me and the nation and the 40 plus years I have of feeding and working with performance dogs. "False appeal to authority"..Really? I don't even know what that means. Have you even worked with athletic dogs, hunting hard for several days straight or competing with them in any type of competitive trials? And BTW, resorting to name calling will get you no where and does not help your credibility at all.

Charlie
No offense but when your argument is based upon my posting opinion and not scientific fact then, when confronted with the reality that I've provided study after study on corn gluten meal being inferior to meat meals (ie. Scienctific fact), you resort to anecdotal evidence (ie opinion).

I mean seriously, you're joking... right?

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by SCT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:45 am

I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:47 am

SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.
If, as an experiment, you fed nothing but things like venison meat, beef, chicken, organs, and oily fish, raw and in the correct ratios (dropping the kibble entirely) you'd see the stool size shrink dramatically, the condition of teeth and coat improve, the highest stamina (from metabolizing fat, not carbohydrates), and great muscle development (due to eating complete animal protein as opposed to cereal).

You would see the difference. It is not subtle. You are part way there already. Something to think about.

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:12 am

Spy Car wrote:
SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.
If, as an experiment, you fed nothing but things like venison meat, beef, chicken, organs, and oily fish, raw and in the correct ratios (dropping the kibble entirely) you'd see the stool size shrink dramatically, the condition of teeth and coat improve, the highest stamina (from metabolizing fat, not carbohydrates), and great muscle development (due to eating complete animal protein as opposed to cereal).

You would see the difference. It is not subtle. You are part way there already. Something to think about.

Bill
But we also need to tell people that animal protein is no better than vegetable protein. They are different because they have different balances of amino acids and we can provide all of the necessary one better and cheaper by using both animal and vegetable in combination to provide the complete spectrum of essential acids. Feeding all animal sources are just as bad as feeding all vegetable but we have proven either can be done.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:28 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.
If, as an experiment, you fed nothing but things like venison meat, beef, chicken, organs, and oily fish, raw and in the correct ratios (dropping the kibble entirely) you'd see the stool size shrink dramatically, the condition of teeth and coat improve, the highest stamina (from metabolizing fat, not carbohydrates), and great muscle development (due to eating complete animal protein as opposed to cereal).

You would see the difference. It is not subtle. You are part way there already. Something to think about.

Bill
But we also need to tell people that animal protein is no better than vegetable protein. They are different because they have different balances of amino acids and we can provide all of the necessary one better and cheaper by using both animal and vegetable in combination to provide the complete spectrum of essential acids. Feeding all animal sources are just as bad as feeding all vegetable but we have proven either can be done.
By feeding animal products you not only get the complete array of amino acids, you eliminate the carbohydrates that comprise a significant proportion of processed kibbles. So the good and essential nutrients a dog requires are maximized, and the non-essential (meaning dietarily unnecessary) part is eliminated. That is the optimal way to feed.

If SCT were to try it, he could judge the results for himself.

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:47 am

What you are saying leaves a lot to be desired. We can not judge the quality of a feed strictly from looks. That explains how you are being led astray. When I think of the huge amount of money, time, and labor, let alone the animals that had to be sacrificed and posted to measure what was happening that we spent to determine what really did work best, I can see how you are coming up with your recommendations but it still doesn't explain why you would get on a board like this and insult ever poster on here plus losing your creditability with your peers. Like I told someone else just yesterday you might enjoy the board a lot more and actually take part in some worth while discussion that we all could learn from if you would just stop telling all of us that the things we have learned and followed for many many years is totally wrong even though we all have the proof it works. Do as you like and allow the rest of us to do the same with out trying to judge everything we do and telling us we are just wrong.

Think about it, we all are not always wrong and there are some on here that have enjoyed a lot more success than either you or I.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:14 am

SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.

It isn't just protein in, protein out matters as well as does the amino acid percentages.

The digestability of the protein in corn gluten meal is at 84% which is lower than animal meals. Nevermind that it has a lysine deficiency, that can be solved by lysine supplementation, it has a methionine surplus which is harder to deal with and can lead to toxicity issues.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by SCT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:15 am

Bill, I would try it, but no one can offer a realistic recipe that I can trust or afford. And when I say afford I'm including my time. I talked to a leading raw food veterinarian researcher through email, and posted her findings here a year or two ago. With all of her testing and research she was not willing to offer me a recipe for my high energy pointers, mostly I think, because she didn't want to be liable. Regardless of her studies and what not, her lack of confidence in explaining some sort of reliable recipe keeps me from jumping in.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:27 am

SCT wrote:Bill, I would try it, but no one can offer a realistic recipe that I can trust or afford. And when I say afford I'm including my time. I talked to a leading raw food veterinarian researcher through email, and posted her findings here a year or two ago. With all of her testing and research she was not willing to offer me a recipe for my high energy pointers, mostly I think, because she didn't want to be liable. Regardless of her studies and what not, her lack of confidence in explaining some sort of reliable recipe keeps me from jumping in.
I'm out the door to run the dog, but there is a general model for raw feeding (know as the prey-model) that in its most simplistic form is to feed a diversity of animal species in a ratio of roughly 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organs (half of which, so 5%, should be liver, the other half other organs like kidneys, spleens, sweetbreads and the like.

There is more to it than that, but it is not super complex. If you care to pursue it, I'd happily help.

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:34 am

pato y codoniz wrote:
SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.

It isn't just protein in, protein out matters as well as does the amino acid percentages.

The digestability of the protein in corn gluten meal is at 84% which is lower than animal meals. Nevermind that it has a lysine deficiency, that can be solved by lysine supplementation, it has a methionine surplus which is harder to deal with and can lead to toxicity issues.


All of your concerns are addressed by the nutritionist when we make up a formula. The high methionine is not high in the finished formula and the low lysine is addressed as well as is every one of the different nutrients. You are making my case why we use a combination of ingredients that make the finished product better than any single ingredient. If just animal base protein was the best or cheapest way to get a finished product that covers the needs over the life time of the dog that would be what people would use but research has proven there is a better way and that leads us to the great feeds we have available to use. Lots of different ways to get there but everyone of them requires a combination of animal, vegetable, and mineral sources along with Vitamin supplementation. Feeds and feeding have come a long way but it is hard for some to let go of their old ideas and embrace the "new and improved" that we hear so often in advertisiments.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:21 am

clink83 wrote:]It's not about your ego, its about basic nutritional science. A sample size of one dog is bs, be it mine or yours. Tell me this, do you know your dogs or any others VO2 max? Lactic thresholds? No? Do you know how long your dogs can run before they deplete the glycogen in their liver?

Any halfassed athlete knows that the nutritional requirements for training, recovery, and competing are not the same. You're just being obtuse. A simple literature search:

http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/79/5/1601.short
http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/128/12/2686S.short


By basic science the pro plan you keep pimping doesn't meet the nutritional levels that actual science says are needed. In fact, I don't know of any kibble that really does.
Actually there have been a number of trials measuring VO2 on our performance dogs, by Purina and informally by dog guys. If we found something better we would switch. You guys win even a local trial and I will listen.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:41 pm

ezzy333 wrote:What you are saying leaves a lot to be desired. We can not judge the quality of a feed strictly from looks. That explains how you are being led astray. When I think of the huge amount of money, time, and labor, let alone the animals that had to be sacrificed and posted to measure what was happening that we spent to determine what really did work best, I can see how you are coming up with your recommendations but it still doesn't explain why you would get on a board like this and insult ever poster on here plus losing your creditability with your peers. Like I told someone else just yesterday you might enjoy the board a lot more and actually take part in some worth while discussion that we all could learn from if you would just stop telling all of us that the things we have learned and followed for many many years is totally wrong even though we all have the proof it works. Do as you like and allow the rest of us to do the same with out trying to judge everything we do and telling us we are just wrong.

Think about it, we all are not always wrong and there are some on here that have enjoyed a lot more success than either you or I.
Ezzy, it isn't an "insult" to anyone to have an informed difference of opinion. When I (or Pato) point to scientific studies to back our positions the studies are met with ridicule, as not real world. When we cite our personal experience they are attacked as opinions. Can't win.

You relentlessly tell us you know everything and we should be quiet and listen. That's insulting Ezzy. You never seem to follow your own admonitions to others. Gets old.

Your saying "we can not judge the quality of a feed strictly from looks" strikes me as an acknowledgment that there is a clear difference in the looks of naturally fed dogs. Better coats, cleaner teeth, clearer eyes, no bloating after meals, etc. External (and obvious) differences in vitality, lean muscle mass, are not the only measure of good nutrition, so is having phenomena stamina.

Please share all the feeding studies you claim exist that show the superiority of a cereal based diet over an animal based diet. Will you do that?

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:55 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
SCT wrote:I am only concerned that my dog is maintaining weight, has lots of energy, and their stools are small and tight confirming that the particular food is being well digested. I believe Purina when they tell me there is 30% protein and 20% fat and not too concerned if their secondary form of protein is slightly inferior to their primary form of protein. It is digested better than any other food I've tried with close to the same fat%. And I've tried some of the best. If the "better" foods could have better affordability I would use them more. I've used Inukshuk, Dr. Tim's, etc, did not see a difference in performance, coat appearance, eye alertness.......none of it. What I did see was a difficulty getting the food amount perfected to keep from having runny stools.

I will keep searching for the "perfect" food, but am happy with Pro Plan Sport, Nutrisource, and Diamond Naturals regardless of claims of poor ingredients. They wouldn't be in business if dogs were having health issues. I will also keep adding chicken necks, hamburger, venison muscle meat and organs on occasion. The only thing else I might add is raw sardines if I could find them for a reasonable price.

It isn't just protein in, protein out matters as well as does the amino acid percentages.

The digestability of the protein in corn gluten meal is at 84% which is lower than animal meals. Nevermind that it has a lysine deficiency, that can be solved by lysine supplementation, it has a methionine surplus which is harder to deal with and can lead to toxicity issues.


All of your concerns are addressed by the nutritionist when we make up a formula. The high methionine is not high in the finished formula and the low lysine is addressed as well as is every one of the different nutrients. You are making my case why we use a combination of ingredients that make the finished product better than any single ingredient. If just animal base protein was the best or cheapest way to get a finished product that covers the needs over the life time of the dog that would be what people would use but research has proven there is a better way and that leads us to the great feeds we have available to use. Lots of different ways to get there but everyone of them requires a combination of animal, vegetable, and mineral sources along with Vitamin supplementation. Feeds and feeding have come a long way but it is hard for some to let go of their old ideas and embrace the "new and improved" that we hear so often in advertisiments.
1. Your nutrionist isn't making an optimal food. They're making the cheapest minimally acceptable food given the parameters they're given. When supplementing lysine, which is what pro plan performance is doing, they aren't taking the lysine levels to optimal level but minimally acceptable levels. When they are trying to get methionine levels under control, they're not taking them to optimal levels but rather maximum acceptable levels.

2. Optimal foods may have vegetable protein present but it is because they're using whole vegatbles and not soy protein, pea protein, potato protein, corn protein, or other vegetable protein concentrates. Vegetable protein concentrates are used because they're cheaper than animal based protein concentrates. While the amino acid profiles may be similar, the bioavailability matters. For example, the amino acid profiles of corn and corn gluten meal are the same but the bioavailability of protein in whole corn is ~60% while it is ~84% for cgm. In animal proteins, it is in the 90s. So what matters isn't the profile going in, it is what is being digested and not exiting with the stool.

3. While most all kibble includes some vitamin and mineral supplementation, the inferior foods require supplementation because of nutritional gaps in their formulation. While whole foods like potatos, rice, wheat, etc are calorie dense, they're nutrionally sparse.

Frankly, the pure comedy of your argument that it takes a blend is that within the last month you were ripping some of the higher end foods for adding whole peas, lentil, etc and that cheaper foods had more animal protein but now your advocating for the importance of vegetable protein concentrates.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:45 pm

Frankly, the pure comedy of your argument that it takes a blend is that within the last month you were ripping some of the higher end foods for adding whole peas, lentil, etc and that cheaper foods had more animal protein but now your advocating for the importance of vegetable protein concentrates.
Please find where I have ever mentioned peas, lentils and whatever and repost here so we all can see it. Stick to facts or don't post.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Frankly, the pure comedy of your argument that it takes a blend is that within the last month you were ripping some of the higher end foods for adding whole peas, lentil, etc and that cheaper foods had more animal protein but now your advocating for the importance of vegetable protein concentrates.
Please find where I have ever mentioned peas, lentils and whatever and repost here so we all can see it. Stick to facts or don't post.
I'll go find it.

In the meantime, you can address issues 1, 2 and 3.

Thanks

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:01 pm

Hey Ezzy,

Please share all the feeding studies you claim exist that show the superiority of a cereal based diet over an animal based diet. Will you do that?

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:46 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Frankly, the pure comedy of your argument that it takes a blend is that within the last month you were ripping some of the higher end foods for adding whole peas, lentil, etc and that cheaper foods had more animal protein but now your advocating for the importance of vegetable protein concentrates.
Please find where I have ever mentioned peas, lentils and whatever and repost here so we all can see it. Stick to facts or don't post.
I'll go find it.

In the meantime, you can address issues 1, 2 and 3.

Thanks
1. Can't speak for people I know nothing about but am sure the products they formulate speaks for what they do. I do know our company always worked in everything we did to make the best product possible with an eye also to keep it affordable since if you don't no one would buy it.

2. Vegetable proteins are normally found in vegetable products such as legumes. A few are by-products of other processes such as soybean meal, a byproduct of the soybean oil extraction plus some is a result of the oil and hull being extracted, corn gluten is just whole corn with the starch and sugar removed which a few of you think sugar and starch has no place in a dog food. One of the best things about corn gluten is the very high digestibility compared to a lot of vegetable products and it leads to a very healthy intestine as does beet pulp which is added to most of the better feeds.

3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:14 pm

Spy Car wrote:Hey Ezzy,

Please share all the feeding studies you claim exist that show the superiority of a cereal based diet over an animal based diet. Will you do that?

Bill
Bill, You have not shown any interest in what or how the rest of us feed or train, so I will pass , since if you really are interested you can find them on your own. I can't keep up with everything so I'll let you find whatever you want to look up and I will try to keep the forum on somewhat of an even keel and make sure we can continue to be a place where newcomers can come and get some good info when they ask and are not mislead too badly by something they read on here. That is why I have tried to tell you we are open to hearing what works for you but do not need anyone telling people that what works for others is wrong especially when it is almost universal with the pros that are making a living doing exactly what you say won't work.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote: 3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
First, it is simply not so that vitamins and minerals need to be added to "any" natural feed, as a diet of meal. organs, bones, and fish easily meet every dietary need for vitamins and minerals. If you mean "unnatural diets" such as processed dog kibble, then it is a different story.

Two, McDonald's (although hurting of late) manages to remain in business even though no one equates their offering with an optimal diet. Consumers purchasing dog food have a devil of a time trying to figure out what's in the product due to deliberate obfuscation and labeling laws written to benefit the industry, not the end user.

Bill (who can wait to see those studies. Will you provide those, Ezzy?)

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:36 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: 3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
First, it is simply not so that vitamins and minerals need to be added to "any" natural feed, as a diet of meal. organs, bones, and fish easily meet every dietary need for vitamins and minerals. If you mean "unnatural diets" such as processed dog kibble, then it is a different story.

Two, McDonald's (although hurting of late) manages to remain in business even though no one equates their offering with an optimal diet. Consumers purchasing dog food have a devil of a time trying to figure out what's in the product due to deliberate obfuscation and labeling laws written to benefit the industry, not the end user.

Bill (who can wait to see those studies. Will you provide those, Ezzy?)

Bill
McDonald has never claimed or even tried to provide the best food you can buy but has made a great effort to fulfill the need for decent meals quickly for the people who do not have time for a sit down meal, and they do it well. As I said they produce a product that people have a need for and do it better thsn most others.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: 3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
First, it is simply not so that vitamins and minerals need to be added to "any" natural feed, as a diet of meal. organs, bones, and fish easily meet every dietary need for vitamins and minerals. If you mean "unnatural diets" such as processed dog kibble, then it is a different story.

Two, McDonald's (although hurting of late) manages to remain in business even though no one equates their offering with an optimal diet. Consumers purchasing dog food have a devil of a time trying to figure out what's in the product due to deliberate obfuscation and labeling laws written to benefit the industry, not the end user.

Bill (who can wait to see those studies. Will you provide those, Ezzy?)

Bill
McDonald has never claimed or even tried to provide the best food you can buy but has made a great effort to fulfill the need for decent meals quickly for the people who do not have time for a sit down meal, and they do it well. As I said they produce a product that people have a need for and do it better thsn most others.
So you're saying McDonalds is more straight forward in their claims than Purina, et al?

Can you provide those studies Ezzy? Dying to read them!

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote: 1. Can't speak for people I know nothing about but am sure the products they formulate speaks for what they do. I do know our company always worked in everything we did to make the best product possible with an eye also to keep it affordable since if you don't no one would buy it.

2. Vegetable proteins are normally found in vegetable products such as legumes. A few are by-products of other processes such as soybean meal, a byproduct of the soybean oil extraction plus some is a result of the oil and hull being extracted, corn gluten is just whole corn with the starch and sugar removed which a few of you think sugar and starch has no place in a dog food. One of the best things about corn gluten is the very high digestibility compared to a lot of vegetable products and it leads to a very healthy intestine as does beet pulp which is added to most of the better feeds.

3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
1. Then you're being disingenuous because, in an industry where lower grade foods use vague ingredients lists and use commodity price based algorithms to alter the formula to maximize the profitability of each run of food, you're trying to sell that these manufacturers are going above and beyond minimums or the constriction of their guaranteed analysis?

2. We are not talking about vegetable protein found in whole vegetables, legumes, etc where the protein is secondary nutritionally. We are talking about protein vegetable concentrates where protein is the primary nutritional consideration and it is being used as a replacement for more expensive animal based protein.

3. Do all humans require vitamin and mineral supplementation or does a well balanced thoughtful diet have all the vitamins and minerals necessary from whole foods? Your point of view is indicative of a totally different approach of nutrition that is based in the 50s. One where it believes that cresting a grain porridge then supplementing it with cheap vegetable protein concentrates, vitamins, minerals, and declaring it everything that the body needs. Why eat an orange? Yale a vitamin C. Why eat a banana? Take some potassium. Etc.

Lastly, I didn't answer your question on corn gluten meal's origin because, at best, it was condescending. Proceed under the assumption that I'm highly educated in the hard sciences.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:21 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
First, it is simply not so that vitamins and minerals need to be added to "any" natural feed, as a diet of meal. organs, bones, and fish easily meet every dietary need for vitamins and minerals. If you mean "unnatural diets" such as processed dog kibble, then it is a different story.

Two, McDonald's (although hurting of late) manages to remain in business even though no one equates their offering with an optimal diet. Consumers purchasing dog food have a devil of a time trying to figure out what's in the product due to deliberate obfuscation and labeling laws written to benefit the industry, not the end user.

Bill (who can wait to see those studies. Will you provide those, Ezzy?)

Bill
McDonald has never claimed or even tried to provide the best food you can buy but has made a great effort to fulfill the need for decent meals quickly for the people who do not have time for a sit down meal, and they do it well. As I said they produce a product that people have a need for and do it better thsn most others.
So you're saying McDonalds is more straight forward in their claims than Purina, et al?

Can you provide those studies Ezzy? Dying to read them!

Bill
Show us a list of Purina's claims that are bothering you and we will compare them to McDonald's and get back to you. Think maybe you need to find something to do but I understand the concern that is bothering you..
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Show us a list of Purina's claims that are bothering you and we will compare them to McDonald's and get back to you. Think maybe you need to find something to do but I understand the concern that is bothering you..
You're the one telling us that plant-based kibbles are superior to balanced meals of animal protein.

Let's see those studies you keep talking about? Will you provide them???

Bill

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:27 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: 1. Can't speak for people I know nothing about but am sure the products they formulate speaks for what they do. I do know our company always worked in everything we did to make the best product possible with an eye also to keep it affordable since if you don't no one would buy it.

2. Vegetable proteins are normally found in vegetable products such as legumes. A few are by-products of other processes such as soybean meal, a byproduct of the soybean oil extraction plus some is a result of the oil and hull being extracted, corn gluten is just whole corn with the starch and sugar removed which a few of you think sugar and starch has no place in a dog food. One of the best things about corn gluten is the very high digestibility compared to a lot of vegetable products and it leads to a very healthy intestine as does beet pulp which is added to most of the better feeds.

3. All feeds require Vitamins and mineral to be included in the formulation and has no relation to what else is used as both are somewhat short in any natural feed. Feeds are made up of protein, carb, fat, mineral, and vitamin rich ingredients without exception and it is a mystery to me how you can make all of the claims that I read when you do not have any information about any of the formulas for any of the feeds. Companies stay in business as long as there are people who need their products and continue to buy them because the fill the customers needs. And of course you have the right to feed whatever you want just like the rest of us so I am going to suggest that each of us use what works for us and if anyone is wanting to feed like you do they will ask.

Have you found that quote yet? Also noticed you never answered when I did ask if you knew what Corn Gluten really is and why it is being used. By the way, are you aware that there is high lysine corn that fulfills the total requirement of lysine without adding any synthetic supplement?
1. Then you're being disingenuous because, in an industry where lower grade foods use vague ingredients lists and use commodity price based algorithms to alter the formula to maximize the profitability of each run of food, you're trying to sell that these manufacturers are going above and beyond minimums or the constriction of their guaranteed analysis?

2. We are not talking about vegetable protein found in whole vegetables, legumes, etc where the protein is secondary nutritionally. We are talking about protein vegetable concentrates where protein is the primary nutritional consideration and it is being used as a replacement for more expensive animal based protein.

3. Do all humans require vitamin and mineral supplementation or does a well balanced thoughtful diet have all the vitamins and minerals necessary from whole foods? Your point of view is indicative of a totally different approach of nutrition that is based in the 50s. One where it believes that cresting a grain porridge then supplementing it with cheap vegetable protein concentrates, vitamins, minerals, and declaring it everything that the body needs. Why eat an orange? Yale a vitamin C. Why eat a banana? Take some potassium. Etc.

Lastly, I didn't answer your question on corn gluten meal's origin because, at best, it was condescending. Proceed under the assumption that I'm highly educated in the hard sciences.
Funny we saw none of those qualifications till you got challenged but you are still wrong when it comes to the real world. Don't think we want oranges or bananas in our dog food.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Funny we saw none of those qualifications till you got challenged but you are still wrong when it comes to the real world. Don't think we want oranges or bananas in our dog food.
You didn't challenge me. You were being condescending and insulting. Nevermind that I haven't and won't resort to a pathetic appeal to authority whenever the topic of food arises.

This is what challenging someone looks like... provide any scientific evidence to support your conclusions.

Ps. I've never hidden my science background: viewtopic.php?f=121&t=37104&start=200#p455626
Last edited by pato y codoniz on Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by MJB64 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:22 pm

I was bored so I read this whole thing.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by birddogger » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:42 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
birddogger wrote:
I can tolerate a difference of opinion but lying or stupidity are things I don't do so well with....

I've literally linked to independent scientific studies that have shown that corn gluten meal is inferior to the animals based protein concentrates.

I'm the only one providing scientific fact and not relying on some false appeal to authority so get it straight.
So now we are liars? That is something I for one do not do well with. As far as studies go, anybody can find a study to support their claim on just about any subject. I prefer to go by the proof all around me and the nation and the 40 plus years I have of feeding and working with performance dogs. "False appeal to authority"..Really? I don't even know what that means. Have you even worked with athletic dogs, hunting hard for several days straight or competing with them in any type of competitive trials? And BTW, resorting to name calling will get you no where and does not help your credibility at all.

Charlie
No offense but when your argument is based upon my posting opinion and not scientific fact then, when confronted with the reality that I've provided study after study on corn gluten meal being inferior to meat meals (ie. Scienctific fact), you resort to anecdotal evidence (ie opinion).

I mean seriously, you're joking... right?
Joking? Hardly, and you have still never answered the question concerning your experience or acclomplishments with performance dogs. It sounds to me all you do is read studies, in which many have there own agenda. Also, thousands of performance dogs thriving all over the country for years upon years while being fed a quality kibble is not anecdotal, it is fact!!

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:34 pm

birddogger wrote: Joking? Hardly, and you have still never answered the question concerning your experience or acclomplishments with performance dogs. It sounds to me all you do is read studies, in which many have there own agenda. Also, thousands of performance dogs thriving all over the country for years upon years while being fed a quality kibble is not anecdotal, it is fact!!

Charlie
It hasn't been answered because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm not making some appeal to authority because i believe in conclusions based upon true premises.

I'm not trying to gain credibility for an unscientific opinion or add credence to anecdotal evidence because, especially when we have scientific evidence, ancedotal evidence is worthless.

Lastly, who ever said I was against high quality kibble? The question is what constitutes high quality?

My conclusion is that kibble that has corn gluten meal as its second ingredient and first protein concentrate is not a high quality kibble. The scientific evidence supports my conclusion.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:23 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
birddogger wrote: Joking? Hardly, and you have still never answered the question concerning your experience or acclomplishments with performance dogs. It sounds to me all you do is read studies, in which many have there own agenda. Also, thousands of performance dogs thriving all over the country for years upon years while being fed a quality kibble is not anecdotal, it is fact!!

Charlie
It hasn't been answered because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

I'm not making some appeal to authority because i believe in conclusions based upon true premises.

I'm not trying to gain credibility for an unscientific opinion or add credence to anecdotal evidence because, especially when we have scientific evidence, ancedotal evidence is worthless.

Lastly, who ever said I was against high quality kibble? The question is what constitutes high quality?

My conclusion is that kibble that has corn gluten meal as its second ingredient and first protein concentrate is not a high quality kibble. The scientific evidence supports my conclusion.
What you are really saying is you are just arguing for your entertainment and you have limited knowledge other than what you have read. Basically sound very much like a troll, adds nothing to the conversation other than find fault with what every one else says. I really am getting to the place of cutting all of this off since it has nothing to do with the subject and adds nothing to anyone knowledge. Give it one more chance and it will be gone If it continues down this path. Our original poster deserves better and I apologize for taking part in this buffoonery.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Neil » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:47 pm

I have a very high boredom threshold, I can enjoy watching an inch worm; but the last couple pages of this have been tedious.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:55 pm

Before you shut things down Ezzy will you please provide feeding studies you claim show vegetable based foods are superior to feeding animal products? I'm very interested in seeing these.

Please respond.

Bill

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SCT
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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by SCT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm

I think we just need an objective respondent to give the touted raw diet a go. I (or my dogs) may be that guinea pig, just don't know that I'm ready to try it with a pregnant bitch. It may take a couple of months, but I've been wanting to try the other side for several years. Probably will wait until this litter of upcoming puppies have gone to their lucky owners!

Steve

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:48 pm

Spy Car wrote:Before you shut things down Ezzy will you please provide feeding studies you claim show vegetable based foods are superior to feeding animal products? I'm very interested in seeing these.

Please respond.

Bill
Bill,

You, I, and everyone else in this thread know that he won't because he can't. I doesn't exist.

It is a never ending appeal to authority despite the scientific evidence to the contrary.

Pato.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by pato y codoniz » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:07 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
What you are really saying is you are just arguing for your entertainment and you have limited knowledge other than what you have read. Basically sound very much like a troll, adds nothing to the conversation other than find fault with what every one else says.
No, what I'm saying is that I don't need to constantly tell people how good my dogs perform or that I work in dog food because my conclusion doesn't need anything other than it's own merits because it is based upon scientific fact.

You want people to believe you... provide the proof. I have.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by birddogger » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:03 am

SCT wrote:I think we just need an objective respondent to give the touted raw diet a go. I (or my dogs) may be that guinea pig, just don't know that I'm ready to try it with a pregnant bitch. It may take a couple of months, but I've been wanting to try the other side for several years. Probably will wait until this litter of upcoming puppies have gone to their lucky owners!

Steve
Nothing wrong with that. I just think it will take a lot of research, time, knowledge and expense to come up with a balanced diet. I just wouldn't want all the effort and inconvenience when I can just go buy a commercial feed and get the same results. Although, dogs did well for years without a so called balanced diet. Just as an aside, I once met a professional trainer and guide from Montana with a large string of dogs. Our conversation eventually got to what dog food we fed. He told me that he once met a guy with a beautiful pointer with the slickest and shiniest coat he had ever seen. He asked the guy what he was feeding and the guy said it was a brand he bought at Walmart called Ol' Roy. Go figure.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by Neil » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:13 am

pato y codoniz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
What you are really saying is you are just arguing for your entertainment and you have limited knowledge other than what you have read. Basically sound very much like a troll, adds nothing to the conversation other than find fault with what every one else says.
No, what I'm saying is that I don't need to constantly tell people how good my dogs perform or that I work in dog food because my conclusion doesn't need anything other than it's own merits because it is based upon scientific fact.

You want people to believe you... provide the proof. I have.
Have you ever heard the terms, "Where the rubber meets the road" or "When the tailgate drops, the BS stops"? The first is from auto racing, where tests, studies, scientific fact are proved/disproved on the track. The second from hunting dogs going head to head to prove which is the best.

You can't seem to understand the only measure serious hunting dog owners care about is performance in field trials as quantified in wins. The rest is BS. So you do have to tell us how good your dogs perform as proven in field trials to earn respect.

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Re: Does anybody rotate formulas to avoid protein intolerance?

Post by cjhills » Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:08 am

Neil wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
What you are really saying is you are just arguing for your entertainment and you have limited knowledge other than what you have read. Basically sound very much like a troll, adds nothing to the conversation other than find fault with what every one else says.
No, what I'm saying is that I don't need to constantly tell people how good my dogs perform or that I work in dog food because my conclusion doesn't need anything other than it's own merits because it is based upon scientific fact.

You want people to believe you... provide the proof. I have.
Have you ever heard the terms, "Where the rubber meets the road" or "When the tailgate drops, the BS stops"? The first is from auto racing, where tests, studies, scientific fact are proved/disproved on the track. The second from hunting dogs going head to head to prove which is the best.

You can't seem to understand the only measure serious hunting dog owners care about is performance in field trials as quantified in wins. The rest is BS. So you do have to tell us how good your dogs perform as proven in field trials to earn respect.
Speaking of BS. I know and respect many serious hunting dog trainers and owners who could not care less if their dogs never win a field trial and it is certainly not the only thing they care about.................Cj

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