Here's one for the dog food gurus!

AlPastor
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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:24 pm

slistoe wrote:
Vision wrote: So because pointers and setters have 2 trials that are 3 hours stakes and only around a 100 of both breeds run per year that changes the way those breeds metabolize energy from nutrition?
If there was no difference between pointers, shorthairs and viszlas then you would see those other breeds in the top level AA trials. They aren't there simply because they can't compete.
To be fair, 90% of the pointers and setters that are there can't compete physically either with the top handful of dogs.

When it comes to nutrition, it is a hard sell to tell me that the 3 breeds have different nutritional needs.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:32 pm

I agree, I doubt if the nutritional needs are breed related but we do know every dog has different needs just like people do. That is exactly why we don't feed a certain number of calories but rather we feed the dog and that says read your dog and not the bag if you want to do it eight. Any one can read a bag but it takes personal attention if you want to condition an animal. Many people just can't do it and that is why they read the bag.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:40 pm

Vision wrote:
slistoe wrote:They aren't there simply because they can't compete.

Because a pointer/setters physiology is changed by having a 3 hour trial once a year?
Not the physiology, but the reward of an exceptional individual that is fed the optimal food! Not the best , mind you, but the best available.

There are so many other limiting factors, that diet becomes insignificant, after basic nutritional requirements are met.

If you are looking for a certain winning strategy, look other than adjustment to food.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:13 pm

If you are looking for a certain winning strategy, look other than adjustment to food.
Probably the wisest statement made in the whole topic.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:12 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
If you are looking for a certain winning strategy, look other than adjustment to food.
Probably the wisest statement made in the whole topic.
Athletic performance is a combination of genetics, conditioning, and nutrition.

When searching for a winning strategy, you can't change the dog's genetics but you can change the other two and they are dependent upon each other.

When studies have shown that where the calories come from can drastically increase the VO2MAX and type of exercise can also increase the VO2MAX , it is a place to find an edge.

I mean diet and type of exercise can drastically effect the amount of EPO that the body creates naturally. Unless you're going to shoot the dog up with epogen, which the frequency of that occurring doesn't shock me at all, you need to hit all the tricks to get the body into a state capable of giving maximum performance.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by SCT » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:23 pm

Thing is, most people aren't looking for a winning strategy, as the vast majority of bird dog owners don't compete with them. But, some folks may want to give their charges the best possible nutrition to accomplish their work. Nothing wrong with that and I'd also go as far to say if you haven't tried it, don't knock it. If you have tried it, and your results were disappointing then by all means share your experiences.

I tried 4 bags of kibble once because a friend used it and it was terrible. Smelled like burnt cardboard and my dogs wouldn't touch it. Sold it to another friend at a discounted price because price is what he cares about. There are probably some good cheap kibble, but that wasn't one of them.

Found some frozen sardines but they're $1.80 lb. I'll get some and see how the dogs like it but You raw feeders must live in a less thriving economy than Utah :lol:

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by polmaise » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:34 pm

AlPastor wrote: Athletic performance is a combination of genetics, conditioning, and nutrition.

When searching for a winning strategy, you can't change the dog's genetics but you can change the other two and they are dependent upon each other.

When studies have shown that where the calories come from can drastically increase the VO2MAX and type of exercise can also increase the VO2MAX , it is a place to find an edge.

I mean diet and type of exercise can drastically effect the amount of EPO that the body creates naturally. Unless you're going to shoot the dog up with epogen, which the frequency of that occurring doesn't shock me at all, you need to hit all the tricks to get the body into a state capable of giving maximum performance.
"A favourable genetic profile, when combined with an optimal training environment, is important for elite athletic performance; however, few genes are consistently associated with elite athletic performance, and none are linked strongly enough to warrant their use in predicting athletic success".
Anyhow, one fat slab with a good nose can 'eye wipe' a super fit hero ! whether in competition or not :wink:

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:00 pm

SCT wrote: Found some frozen sardines but they're $1.80 lb. I'll get some and see how the dogs like it but You raw feeders must live in a less thriving economy than Utah :lol:
Out here in the land of fruits and nuts, I'm angry when I don't get my chicken leg quarters for under $0.30/lb and sardines for under $1/lb.

Aside from the weather, ocean, mts, hot chicks, amazing and cheap food, world class hospitals, lots of higher education, plenty of culture, and thriving white collar economy; the best thing about Southern California is the cheap as dirt ethnic markets.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:19 pm

AlPastor wrote:
SCT wrote: Found some frozen sardines but they're $1.80 lb. I'll get some and see how the dogs like it but You raw feeders must live in a less thriving economy than Utah :lol:
Out here in the land of fruits and nuts, I'm angry when I don't get my chicken leg quarters for under $0.30/lb and sardines for under $1/lb.

Aside from the weather, ocean, mts, hot chicks, amazing and cheap food, world class hospitals, lots of higher education, plenty of culture, and thriving white collar economy; the best thing about Southern California is the cheap as dirt ethnic markets.
Did you mention the hot chicks? Oh yea, you did :D

Was today just one more gorgeous day after a long string of others?

The one lousy down-side to life here the wild quail populations have been decimated by the drought. That sucks.

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:30 pm

AlPastor wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
If you are looking for a certain winning strategy, look other than adjustment to food.
Probably the wisest statement made in the whole topic.
Athletic performance is a combination of genetics, conditioning, and nutrition.

When searching for a winning strategy, you can't change the dog's genetics but you can change the other two and they are dependent upon each other.

When studies have shown that where the calories come from can drastically increase the VO2MAX and type of exercise can also increase the VO2MAX , it is a place to find an edge.

I mean diet and type of exercise can drastically effect the amount of EPO that the body creates naturally. Unless you're going to shoot the dog up with epogen, which the frequency of that occurring doesn't shock me at all, you need to hit all the tricks to get the body into a state capable of giving maximum performance.
I would love to see onewell-known "skeptic" on this forum try feeding one of his pack a balanced raw diet for six months as an experiment. They could use their worst dog to lessen the "risk."

Running dogs on meat, fat, oily-fish, bones, organs, and connective tissue (and no carbs) is transformative. I'd help if someone wants to test the proposition.

Combine great genetics, great training and conditioning with optimal nutrition, and look-out!

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:17 pm

I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say.

Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string.

That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by polmaise » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:21 pm

Spy Car wrote: Combine great genetics, great training and conditioning with optimal nutrition, and look-out!

Bill
Now your talking :D
Take the first two away and you get a fit healthy dog that does nothing.
Take the last two away and you get a well bred dog with good training that achieves little.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:32 pm

polmaise wrote:
Spy Car wrote: Combine great genetics, great training and conditioning with optimal nutrition, and look-out!

Bill
Now your talking :D
Take the first two away and you get a fit healthy dog that does nothing.
Take the last two away and you get a well bred dog with good training that achieves little.
Yes

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by SCT » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:49 pm

Our hot chicks are not real plentiful, but since I've been married now 28 years I don't care so much. However, I remember when I was in high school I couldn't wait for spring to hit because as soon as the thermometer hit 60 degrees the bikinis came out!!

Our ethnic grocery stores are about as plentiful as our hot chicks. No competition drives the price up :cry: :cry:

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by polmaise » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:56 pm

In the words of 'Rab Nesbitt' ..Aye right :lol:

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:57 pm

Neil wrote:I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say.

Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string.

That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
I was secretly hoping you'd be the "volunteer" Neil. Darn it all! :lol:

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by shags » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Neil wrote: That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
All hat, no cattle.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:19 pm

Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote:I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say.

Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string.

That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
I was secretly hoping you'd be the "volunteer" Neil. Darn it all! :lol:

Bill
I have proven it.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:50 pm

Neil wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote:I am a native Californian, and combined those that visit here could not entice me to return. In fact, those that proudly live there is enough to question everything you say.

Rather than ask us to experiment, saddle up. And any winning breed fed whatever is worthy of a place in my string.

That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
I was secretly hoping you'd be the "volunteer" Neil. Darn it all! :lol:

Bill
I have proven it.
You've run dogs on a PMR style raw diet Neil?

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:52 pm

Gentlemen, as I have stated many times before I do not care what or how you feed your dogs. I also have said that feeding a raw diet is good except for the fact that an individual is not nor can he afford to become equipped to feed it efficiently. Let's just look at some of the points brought up by individuals on this forum in the past. We all have heard many times over the failure of feed manufactures to label their products accurately or completely even though the labels are completely regulated as to what they contain. So what is the answer, well some have decided to feed raw where there is no labels at all, they feed differently everyday, and have no way of knowing or controlling the amount of any specific nutrient since they can not test or control the contents of any of the ingredients used. As has been noted in feed tests, any of our animals as well as humans will perform better if they can eat a specific and uniform product everyday. Humans are the only animal we have found that wants to vary their diet because they like a different taste even though it does not enhance performance. Our animals do not have that desire to 6the extent we do, they just do better eating the same thing and are content to do just that.

Nutrition is important as we all know. A well fed animal will perform better than a starving one. But you will not see that difference between two well fed animals even though it possibly could be isolated in a Laboratory environment. That is why the argument say over stiffness the next day is not a big concern since the race was to see who is the fastest or who runs the furtherest, or maybe just which dog finds the most birds in an hour test or a more leisurely day of hunting. Personally, I always found the dogs pretty much outlasted me so again it was not the measuring stick that some are so concerned about. What I am saying is that in extreme cases we all know you can see a difference but in the real world the extremely small difference between to animals getting a good balanced diet will not be visible to the eye.

Another thing we hear so often is the term a complete protein in a single ingredient. That just doesn't happen. First, lets define the term protein. Protein, as we use it in our ordinary conversation is a word to describe a group of amino acids collectively. In the past there were 16 essential amino acids though we have added a couple of minor ones to that list that appear to be essential also. The long fibrous type are usually water soluble and the short plump type are usually fat soluble. That is pretty much another thing that we worked with in the lab but is pretty much useless like so much of the information in the field. And there are some that the body itself produces so overall it is a rather complex thing to work with, I am sure most everyone has seen or heard the usage of the essential amino acids explained by using the example of a 16 or 18 stave wooden barrel. Which ever the lesser amount of one of the amino acids would be represented by the shortest stave. So what actually happens is all of the amino acids that are in great supply just run out of the barrel once it gets up to the amount of the shorter supplies acid. So we have two alternatives, one is feed more of that ingredient to bring that one up to the level the dog needs or add a different ingredient that happens to be high in that same acid. In other words if we are feeding an animal based protein, which does come closer than most vegetable proteins to matching what a dog needs, it is better to add a vegetable ingredient that is high and will fill the shortage of that amino acid much easier and better than trying to double the animal based ingredient. Just doubling the same ingredient means the dog must eat twice what it really needs which is wasteful, unhealthy and expensive combined. Though individual ingredient are all different the animal based tend to be closer to the same as is true with the vegetable based but are normally the two groups are quite different. so that is where the nutritionist come in by testing and balancing all the different ingredients and combining them into a feed that contains all of the required nutrients in as low a volume and cost effective formula as possible. We know that the animal based amino acid balance comes closer to matching the needs of the dog so that is why we all like to see our feed based on animal sources but we also know to provide a complete source we can do it better by adding vegetable sources than just trying to increase the animal based ingredients. That combination becomes the closest thing we can produce that would be a complete protein.

One other point before I quit this lengthy epistle. Corn has been mentions quite often and much of what I read is not necessarily accurate. In the first place corn does not tell me much of anything about what is being used since there is such a wide variation in the corn being raised and available on the market. We have corn that are high sugar, high starch, high oil, high lysine, and high oil and maybe more I am missing. These have a considerable variance in makeup and are often raised for specific purposes. So just using corn and not knowing the chemical makeup of the particular type being used doesn't tell us much. Again, it is another reason you can't be very accurate in figuring calories or anything else just by reading a list of ingredients without the ability to test so you know how they fit into the complete formulation of a feed. Same is true when you are buying raw ingredients as they vary considerably also and unless they are tested you are at a loss when trying to feed to fill a dogs needs. This is the main point I was making when the average person can not or can't afford the equipment to allow you to know just what or how much of the dogs requirements you are providing and also the problem of it changing everyday.

Good luck to all of you and just be thankful we all have terrific choices of dog foods to choose from that allows all of us to provide for our dogs and pups.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:27 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Gentlemen, as I have stated many times before I do not care what or how you feed your dogs. I also have said that feeding a raw diet is good except for the fact that an individual is not nor can he afford to become equipped to feed it efficiently. Let's just look at some of the points brought up by individuals on this forum in the past. We all have heard many times over the failure of feed manufactures to label their products accurately or completely even though the labels are completely regulated as to what they contain. So what is the answer, well some have decided to feed raw where there is no labels at all, they feed differently everyday, and have no way of knowing or controlling the amount of any specific nutrient since they can not test or control the contents of any of the ingredients used. As has been noted in feed tests, any of our animals as well as humans will perform better if they can eat a specific and uniform product everyday. Humans are the only animal we have found that wants to vary their diet because they like a different taste even though it does not enhance performance. Our animals do not have that desire to 6the extent we do, they just do better eating the same thing and are content to do just that.

Nutrition is important as we all know. A well fed animal will perform better than a starving one. But you will not see that difference between two well fed animals even though it possibly could be isolated in a Laboratory environment. That is why the argument say over stiffness the next day is not a big concern since the race was to see who is the fastest or who runs the furtherest, or maybe just which dog finds the most birds in an hour test or a more leisurely day of hunting. Personally, I always found the dogs pretty much outlasted me so again it was not the measuring stick that some are so concerned about. What I am saying is that in extreme cases we all know you can see a difference but in the real world the extremely small difference between to animals getting a good balanced diet will not be visible to the eye.

Another thing we hear so often is the term a complete protein in a single ingredient. That just doesn't happen. First, lets define the term protein. Protein, as we use it in our ordinary conversation is a word to describe a group of amino acids collectively. In the past there were 16 essential amino acids though we have added a couple of minor ones to that list that appear to be essential also. The long fibrous type are usually water soluble and the short plump type are usually fat soluble. That is pretty much another thing that we worked with in the lab but is pretty much useless like so much of the information in the field. And there are some that the body itself produces so overall it is a rather complex thing to work with, I am sure most everyone has seen or heard the usage of the essential amino acids explained by using the example of a 16 or 18 stave wooden barrel. Which ever the lesser amount of one of the amino acids would be represented by the shortest stave. So what actually happens is all of the amino acids that are in great supply just run out of the barrel once it gets up to the amount of the shorter supplies acid. So we have two alternatives, one is feed more of that ingredient to bring that one up to the level the dog needs or add a different ingredient that happens to be high in that same acid. In other words if we are feeding an animal based protein, which does come closer than most vegetable proteins to matching what a dog needs, it is better to add a vegetable ingredient that is high and will fill the shortage of that amino acid much easier and better than trying to double the animal based ingredient. Just doubling the same ingredient means the dog must eat twice what it really needs which is wasteful, unhealthy and expensive combined. Though individual ingredient are all different the animal based tend to be closer to the same as is true with the vegetable based but are normally the two groups are quite different. so that is where the nutritionist come in by testing and balancing all the different ingredients and combining them into a feed that contains all of the required nutrients in as low a volume and cost effective formula as possible. We know that the animal based amino acid balance comes closer to matching the needs of the dog so that is why we all like to see our feed based on animal sources but we also know to provide a complete source we can do it better by adding vegetable sources that just rying to increase the animal based ingredients. That combination becomes the closest thing we can produce that would be a complete protein.

One other point before I quit this lengthy epistle. Corn has been mentions quite often and much of what I read is not necessarily accurate. In the first place corn does not tell me much of anything about what is being used since there is such a wide variation in the corn being raised and available on the market. We have corn that are high sugar, high starch, high oil, high lysine, and high oil and maybe more I am missing. These have a considerable variance in makeup and are often raised for specific purposes. So just using corn and not knowing the chemical makeup of the particular type being used doesn't tell us much. Again, it is another reason you can't be very accurate in figuring calories or anything else just by reading a list of ingredients without the ability to test so you know how they fit into the complete formulation of a feed. Same is true when you are buying raw ingredients as they vary considerably also and unless they are tested you are at a loss when trying to feed to fill a dogs needs. This is the main point I was making when the average person can not or can't afford the equipment to allow you to know just what or how much of the dogs requirements you are providing and also the problem of it changing everyday.

Good luck to all of you and just be thankful we all have terrific choices of dog foods to choose from that allows all of us to provide for our dogs and pups.

Ezzy
There are so many falsehoods here it is mind-boggling knowing where to start.

An individual can easily feed a raw diet. It helps a great deal to have a separate freezer as a practical measure, and some good knives, but those are about it in terms of resources, other than bags or containers for storing food.

Raw ingredients are labeled and identifiable. If one purchases chicken thighs or beef hearts one knows what they are getting vs the mystery of what is in "meat meal." Nutritional analysis of all common ingredients is easy to find online. The USDA database if fully searchable.

With ingredients coming from the human supply chain people know their dogs are not eating meat from condemned animals, downers, dead, dying, or diseased animals. Or from condemned waste from slaughterhouses. All of that is not true of what goes into kibble, as all the condemned anima;s and parts can legally be shipped to rendering plants and used in dog food.

It is unnecessary to test every piece of liver or kidney (or another animal part) as all this work has been done and any discrepancy between one part and another will be insignificant.

No being on the planet does better eating an unvaried diet everyday, other than species that have a single item diet. No person has unvaried meals. This is a preposterous thing to say, especially when the kibbles are so lacking in nutrients.

You're wrong about dog's taste for foods. I should shoot a video of the drool that pours from my Vizsla's mouth at mealtime. I never saw that with dogs fed a cereal-based diet. Give a dog a choice and he won't go for corn gluten over meat. You know the industry needs to spray extruded kibble with so-called "animal digest," because without it kibble is so unpalatable dogs won't eat it.

Nutrition is important. We have different ideas in the definition of "well fed."

You've claimed to have evidence that the quality of amino acids in corn matches or exceeds that in animal protein, but have never served up the evidence despite repeated requests. I ask again. Evidence please.

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by shags » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:37 pm

Haven't we been waiting for evidence of your dog's superior performance as well?

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:48 pm

shags wrote:Haven't we been waiting for evidence of your dog's superior performance as well?
I wish I had access to a VO2Max testing center where I could get hard data.

Dogs that have been tested in studies show that performance is always far superior when those dogs run on a high-protein high-fat diet. There is zero evidence that high-carb diets increase performance, because it doesn't.

I'm seeing the same thing with my own eyes.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:55 pm

Neil wrote: That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
No, you're missing the point.

You're try to turn a single variate equation, where the genes, training and conditioning are all constants so all we haven't measure is the delta of performance based upon different feed, into a multivariate equation where all 4 of the variables are unknown and only the result is known.

If you're unwilling to try and would rather just feed what your buddies are willing to share with you regarding feed that's fine. However, I'm not sure what you're contributing to the discussion right or wrong.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:32 pm

What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:44 pm

Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
Should you ever have a change of heart and want to try a raw diet with one of your dogs Neil, I'd be willing to mentor you though the process. You would see a difference in the condition of the dog.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:46 pm

AlPastor wrote:
Neil wrote: That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.
No, you're missing the point.

You're try to turn a single variate equation, where the genes, training and conditioning are all constants so all we haven't measure is the delta of performance based upon different feed, into a multivariate equation where all 4 of the variables are unknown and only the result is known.

If you're unwilling to try and would rather just feed what your buddies are willing to share with you regarding feed that's fine. However, I'm not sure what you're contributing to the discussion right or wrong.
You have the arrogance to question what I contribute without any qualification of your success? Since I have the confidence to use my real name my record is available for scrutiny, you????

To suggest there are only 4 variables to success in field trials reveals your total lack of understanding, and question if you have even won a puppy stake.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:49 pm

Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
Should you ever have a change of heart and want to try a raw diet with one of your dogs Neil, I'd be willing to mentor you though the process. You would see a difference in the condition of the dog.

Bill

That is most gracious of you, if you ever prove a raw diet is a viable winning strategy I might consider it.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:08 pm

Neil wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
Should you ever have a change of heart and want to try a raw diet with one of your dogs Neil, I'd be willing to mentor you though the process. You would see a difference in the condition of the dog.

Bill

That is most gracious of you, if you ever prove a raw diet is a viable winning strategy I might consider it.
I will never be able to prove it to your satisfaction Neil. Should you wish to give it a try, I'm willing lend you my knowledge-base. I don't expect you'll take me up on it, but am confident you'd see the difference if you do. Your choice.

The offer is open.

Bill

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:32 pm

Bill,

You are very kind.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:16 pm

AlPastor wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Vision wrote: So because pointers and setters have 2 trials that are 3 hours stakes and only around a 100 of both breeds run per year that changes the way those breeds metabolize energy from nutrition?
If there was no difference between pointers, shorthairs and viszlas then you would see those other breeds in the top level AA trials. They aren't there simply because they can't compete.
To be fair, 90% of the pointers and setters that are there can't compete physically either with the top handful of dogs.

When it comes to nutrition, it is a hard sell to tell me that the 3 breeds have different nutritional needs.
Hey, all I know is that it is 100% definitive that there are differences in some breeds of dogs re: their nutritional needs. It is 100% proven that not all dogs are the same in nutritional needs. The other thing I know is that something is different between the various pointing breeds because when you put the best that each breed has to offer, they are absolutely not the same. Surmise what you wish in your thought exercises.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:23 pm

Most of the breed differences are conformation related which goes back to being developed for different ways of handling the art of hunting.

Bill, I am disappointed that when you disagree with someone you accuse them of lying. There is nothing that I posted that is a lie. I even agreed with you that feeding raw is good for a dog if it can be done properly. I am well aware of how good a dog can look when fed that way as I did it long before you were around. But I also can make them look just as good feeding several other ways but looking good does not always mean they can perform better. if you doubt that go to a dog show and see the most gorgeous dogs in the world. or go to the local Agriculture fair or local bird show and you will find that most all of the best ones are being fed the same ingredient to give them that special glow and it isn't raw meat. I as well as many others who have been much more active in the performing sports are well aware of what works and what doesn't. Most of us are just as aware of new info that comes out from the research farms and testing stations and though many of us have found we can condition dogs without reading every label or tidbit printed on a bag we are not condemning those of you that do. Several of us have tried to point out that sometimes things in the real world that have worked for years are still valid and there often are very good reasons that most all of the experienced dog handlers are doing what they do for very good and proven reasons and are probably not going to change quickly because someone says they should unless they see it with their own eyes. That is not being stubborn or argumentative, it is just common sense and often a necessity when we are talking about our total income. Probe it will increase their bottom line and they will be right with you. But till then, do what you want but also give the rest of us a little respect and admit what we have done and continue to do because it works is OK too. And if we say it works don't accuse us of fabricating everything. I have only told you and anyone else what I have learned over the years of working in the industry as well as using the products with some success as are most everyone else.
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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Spy Car » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:11 am

ezzy333 wrote:Most of the breed differences are conformation related which goes back to being developed for different ways of handling the art of hunting.

Bill, I am disappointed that when you disagree with someone you accuse them of lying. There is nothing that I posted that is a lie. I even agreed with you that feeding raw is good for a dog if it can be done properly. I am well aware of how good a dog can look when fed that way as I did it long before you were around. But I also can make them look just as good feeding several other ways but looking good does not always mean they can perform better. if you doubt that go to a dog show and see the most gorgeous dogs in the world. or go to the local Agriculture fair or local bird show and you will find that most all of the best ones are being fed the same ingredient to give them that special glow and it isn't raw meat. I as well as many others who have been much more active in the performing sports are well aware of what works and what doesn't. Most of us are just as aware of new info that comes out from the research farms and testing stations and though many of us have found we can condition dogs without reading every label or tidbit printed on a bag we are not condemning those of you that do. Several of us have tried to point out that sometimes things in the real world that have worked for years are still valid and there often are very good reasons that most all of the experienced dog handlers are doing what they do for very good and proven reasons and are probably not going to change quickly because someone says they should unless they see it with their own eyes. That is not being stubborn or argumentative, it is just common sense and often a necessity when we are talking about our total income. Probe it will increase their bottom line and they will be right with you. But till then, do what you want but also give the rest of us a little respect and admit what we have done and continue to do because it works is OK too. And if we say it works don't accuse us of fabricating everything. I have only told you and anyone else what I have learned over the years of working in the industry as well as using the products with some success as are most everyone else.
I said you posted falsehoods Ezzy, not that you lied. There is is a difference. I explained the things you have wrong. I assume you believe these things. That doesn't make you liar, it just means you're wrong. Somewhat ill informed.

Not only do dogs look better on a raw diet (which you're admitting now?), but they perform better. That dogs do better using fats as their energy source, as opposed to carbs, is pretty well established in the scientific literature and in practice, and I see the same thing in real life with my dog.

That individuals can't work out a balanced raw diet at home simply isn't true. There are nutritional balances that need to be met and maintained, but is isn't that hard, or that expensive. I'd spend as much or more on a "premium" kibble.

When I asked for a little respect, you replied it had to be earned.

Don't close your mind to the idea that feeding dogs what they were shaped by evolution to eat as their natural diet isn't superior to feeding industrial wastes and by-products chosen for their economy and high profit margins, as opposed to their nutritional value. Canines have eaten meat, fats, bones, and organs for eons. They are highly adapted to such a diet. Not to eating corn gluten meal. I'm hoping one of the "skeptics" on this forum will say, "OK, what have I got to lose?" and give it a whirl. If it doesn't happen it won't harm me.

Just please understand that I'm not a fool. Nor is Al Pastor, for that matter. You haven't exactly shown the respect for the reasoning of others that you'd like for yourself. I'd love to have more civil discourse on this forum instead of having insults tossed. I've felt disappointed myself on that front Ezzy.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:30 am

Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
That isn't an accurate statement. You could have won in spite of or due to your nutrition but you can't make any statement without comparison to a control group.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:07 am

AlPastor wrote:
Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
That isn't an accurate statement. You could have won in spite of or due to your nutrition but you can't make any statement without comparison to a control group.
The control group is your dogs, if they had ever won anything there would be a record.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by AlPastor » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:12 am

Neil wrote:
AlPastor wrote:
Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
That isn't an accurate statement. You could have won in spite of or due to your nutrition but you can't make any statement without comparison to a control group.
The control group is your dogs, if they had ever won anything there would be a record.
Since the concept of variable elimination and control groups eludes you, just do what Bob West tells you. You'll sleep easier.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:33 am

[quote="AlPastor]

That isn't an accurate statement. You could have won in spite of or due to your nutrition but you can't make any statement without comparison to a control group.[/quote]

Since the concept of variable elimination and control groups eludes you, just do what Bob West tells you. You'll sleep easier.[/quote]

Bob is retired.

What you cannot seem to grasp is if there was a significant advantage to be gained from feeding raw one of the less successful pros would hire the refrigerator truck to follow them around. I know several that tried it, I did in the 70's when I was deer hunting almost as much as running dogs (so it was free). As Bill keeps saying, the dogs looked great, but they did not perform any better.

Rather than competing on a keyboard, you ought to travel to Grand Junction next February and see what the dogs fed kibble look like. You can watch them open the bag to feed dogs valued at over $100,000.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:45 am

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Most of the breed differences are conformation related which goes back to being developed for different ways of handling the art of hunting.

Bill, I am disappointed that when you disagree with someone you accuse them of lying. There is nothing that I posted that is a lie. I even agreed with you that feeding raw is good for a dog if it can be done properly. I am well aware of how good a dog can look when fed that way as I did it long before you were around. But I also can make them look just as good feeding several other ways but looking good does not always mean they can perform better. if you doubt that go to a dog show and see the most gorgeous dogs in the world. or go to the local Agriculture fair or local bird show and you will find that most all of the best ones are being fed the same ingredient to give them that special glow and it isn't raw meat. I as well as many others who have been much more active in the performing sports are well aware of what works and what doesn't. Most of us are just as aware of new info that comes out from the research farms and testing stations and though many of us have found we can condition dogs without reading every label or tidbit printed on a bag we are not condemning those of you that do. Several of us have tried to point out that sometimes things in the real world that have worked for years are still valid and there often are very good reasons that most all of the experienced dog handlers are doing what they do for very good and proven reasons and are probably not going to change quickly because someone says they should unless they see it with their own eyes. That is not being stubborn or argumentative, it is just common sense and often a necessity when we are talking about our total income. Probe it will increase their bottom line and they will be right with you. But till then, do what you want but also give the rest of us a little respect and admit what we have done and continue to do because it works is OK too. And if we say it works don't accuse us of fabricating everything. I have only told you and anyone else what I have learned over the years of working in the industry as well as using the products with some success as are most everyone else.
I said you posted falsehoods Ezzy, not that you lied. There is is a difference. I explained the things you have wrong. I assume you believe these things. That doesn't make you liar, it just means you're wrong. Somewhat ill informed.

Not only do dogs look better on a raw diet (which you're admitting now?), but they perform better. That dogs do better using fats as their energy source, as opposed to carbs, is pretty well established in the scientific literature and in practice, and I see the same thing in real life with my dog.

That individuals can't work out a balanced raw diet at home simply isn't true. There are nutritional balances that need to be met and maintained, but is isn't that hard, or that expensive. I'd spend as much or more on a "premium" kibble.

When I asked for a little respect, you replied it had to be earned.

Don't close your mind to the idea that feeding dogs what they were shaped by evolution to eat as their natural diet isn't superior to feeding industrial wastes and by-products chosen for their economy and high profit margins, as opposed to their nutritional value. Canines have eaten meat, fats, bones, and organs for eons. They are highly adapted to such a diet. Not to eating corn gluten meal. I'm hoping one of the "skeptics" on this forum will say, "OK, what have I got to lose?" and give it a whirl. If it doesn't happen it won't harm me.

Just please understand that I'm not a fool. Nor is Al Pastor, for that matter. You haven't exactly shown the respect for the reasoning of others that you'd like for yourself. I'd love to have more civil discourse on this forum instead of having insults tossed. I've felt disappointed myself on that front Ezzy.

Bill

So I guess my dogs who also have hundreds of Breed wins, multiple MBISS, MBIS, including NBIS, Nat Champ and 1st A.O.l at Nats. while making all cuts at Westminster (several years) would look "much better" had I fed raw? Man, I would have given most anything in those days if I saw an advantage. You don't do that with a BAD coat!!!

They also compete in FT's HT's Agility Trials and Obedience Trials.

Ezzy- I agree with you, no bragging.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by shags » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:13 am

Neil wrote:
AlPastor wrote:
Neil wrote:What I have proven irrefutably is diet is not a limiting factor in my dog's success.
That isn't an accurate statement. You could have won in spite of or due to your nutrition but you can't make any statement without comparison to a control group.
The control group is your dogs, if they had ever won anything there would be a record.
I don't even care if there is no win record. Not everyone enjoys competition, not every dog has the tools to be successful, not every trainer can bring out the best in a dog. I would simply like to know what y'alls dogs do day-to-day, what your conditioning program is, and how your dogs compare to others in whatever activies they participate. I'm assuming that since y'all participate on a gundog forum, that your dogs work as gundogs to some degree. What is their heart rate recovery time after a workout? How many consecutive days can they work, and how long are those days? Do they hold weight over the course of a season? Once the dogs are in condition, how easy/difficult is it maintain?

It's difficult to pull others on board the raw train when your claims for it entail nothing other than a couple of studies ( one of which compares two kibble feeds), the amount of drool on the floor at dinnertime, and derisive comments to the very people you wish to influence.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Vision » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:48 am

shags wrote: and derisive comments to the very people you wish to influence.
Your the one that started the derision by playing the pointer/setter card when someone commented about the brand being fed at the GSP national, and questioning the conditioning of field trail labs.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:02 am

Vision wrote:
shags wrote: and derisive comments to the very people you wish to influence.
Your the one that started the derision by playing the pointer/setter card when someone commented about the brand being fed at the GSP national, and questioning the conditioning of field trail labs.
May I ask when questioning became derisive?
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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by SCT » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:10 am

On a lighter note, my dogs loved the sardines :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by PntrRookie » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:32 am

I challenge anyone to take a look at what the large plantation owners, top retriever and field trialers, and the top confirmation individuals are feeding. Thus, there is a reason why the TOP operations are feeding what they are feeding. We should all strive to have top performers in the back of our trucks. Learn from them.

I just spent 3 days in southern GA and northern FL going plantation to plantation talking to the "dog men and ladies". What an experience, and I learned a LOT...first hand - not behind a keyboard.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by SCT » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:44 am

PntrRookie wrote:I challenge anyone to take a look at what the large plantation owners, top retriever and field trialers, and the top confirmation individuals are feeding. Thus, there is a reason why the TOP operations are feeding what they are feeding. We should all strive to have top performers in the back of our trucks. Learn from them.

I just spent 3 days in southern GA and northern FL going plantation to plantation talking to the "dog men and ladies". What an experience, and I learned a LOT...first hand - not behind a keyboard.
Do tell Mr. Blair, was it PPP?

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by PntrRookie » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:04 am

Yes. I spoke with multiple plantation guys who flip flopped over the years and have gone back to PPP. They stated various reasons but the top reason was performance. They could, not afford to have their owner see clients unhappy with dogs that do not perform. EACH plantation has a minimum of 35+ dogs at EACH facility they own. 9 of the last 9 Westminster winners are fed PPP...again they wouldn't have gotten there without top performing fuel. There are only a handful of pro trainers in both the AKC n AF that don't feed PPP. But the majority do. I would b willing to bet that none feed a raw diet.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:32 am

So I guess my dogs who also have hundreds of Breed wins, multiple MBISS, MBIS, including NBIS, Nat Champ and 1st A.O.l at Nats. while making all cuts at Westminster (several years) would look "much better" had I fed raw? Man, I would have given my left nut in those days if I saw an advantage. You don't do that with a BAD coat!!!
Folks, that is some impressive stuff.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by slistoe » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:58 am

Neil wrote:
So I guess my dogs who also have hundreds of Breed wins, multiple MBISS, MBIS, including NBIS, Nat Champ and 1st A.O.l at Nats. while making all cuts at Westminster (several years) would look "much better" had I fed raw? Man, I would have given most anything in those days if I saw an advantage. You don't do that with a BAD coat!!!
Folks, that is some impressive stuff.
Yeah, I was rather busy and didn't want to get into the coat stuff with him, and I have only shown one dog to CH and had points on about 5 others. No doubt that when I was feeding raw diet to my dogs they had great coats - but I found that I could get the same coat on the dogs when feeding kibble as well - and at the same time have the dogs working harder than any dogs I have ever had before or since. As brasovalley notes - I would have given anything for a magic formula, and tried most everything with the dogs. In the end there were a handful of kibbles that could keep the dogs working day in and day out while maintaining a show worthy coat. In fairness, I did not try a full raw diet at that time, but supplementing with raw did not provide any advantage over straight kibble, and some of the "magic" recipes were actually worse.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Neil » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:16 am

Most of my show success has been in specialties that tend to be more accepting of field dogs, but I have respect for those of you competing in shows. There is a lot more involved than most hunters understand.

Just did not want it to go unnoticed.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by Vision » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:37 pm

ezzy333 wrote:May I ask when questioning became derisive?

Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!
Postby shags » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:25 pm

Sorry but the shorthairs aren't the be all end all. I'm more interested in what the pointer setter guys feed. Most I know feed PPP.


There's no questioning in this post. The posts on the lab field trials were not sincere.

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Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!

Post by slistoe » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:01 pm

Vision wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:May I ask when questioning became derisive?

Re: Here's one for the dog food gurus!
Postby shags » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:25 pm

Sorry but the shorthairs aren't the be all end all. I'm more interested in what the pointer setter guys feed. Most I know feed PPP.


There's no questioning in this post. The posts on the lab field trials were not sincere.
I posted about the lab field trials, and if you think I was not sincere and honest with anything I have posted thus far, blithering would be a good adjective for you.
Sincerely.

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