Here's one for the dog food gurus!

[Neil]

Anyone with any experience with performance dogs would never use retrievers as an example.

And for those that believe the Iditorid is the extreme test, I counter with there a reason that pointers are not allowed entry and the top contenders often travel South to learn about optimum conditioning.

[SCT]

Okay, now I know many of you won't believe me (ezzy?) but this is the third day I have given my dogs sardines (2 oz approx 1 fish) about three hours before their normal kibble meal, and now they are absolutely ravenous towards their kibble. I say ezzy may not believe it because a while back I stated that raw chicken necks bumped their metabolism and he was skeptical. I don't blame you ezzy because I don't know how it would bump their metabolism, but I can assure you these are different dogs. They like their kibble, but didn't jump up and down trying to get it from me and then devouring their whole meal instantly like they are now. For some reason these raw sardines are even more effective in bumping their hunger. Definitely can't be bad for them, and one of them is nursing two week old puppies. Fish are good brain food so maybe some of it will cross over through the milk;-)

Can't say I'm going to switch to a raw diet, but I think a fish or two a day might be beneficial. I will cut back slightly on their kibble and try and see how much more 2 lbs of sardines a week add to the monthly budget. I need to find a better price on them.

[ezzy333]

Okay, now I know many of you won't believe me (ezzy?) but this is the third day I have given my dogs sardines (2 oz approx 1 fish) about three hours before their normal kibble meal, and now they are absolutely ravenous towards their kibble. I say ezzy may not believe it because a while back I stated that raw chicken necks bumped their metabolism and he was skeptical. I don't blame you ezzy because I don't know how it would bump their metabolism, but I can assure you these are different dogs. They like their kibble, but didn't jump up and down trying to get it from me and then devouring their whole meal instantly like they are now. For some reason these raw sardines are even more effective in bumping their hunger. Definitely can't be bad for them, and one of them is nursing two week old puppies. Fish are good brain food so maybe some of it will cross over through the milk;-)

Can't say I'm going to switch to a raw diet, but I think a fish or two a day might be beneficial. I will cut back slightly on their kibble and try and see how much more 2 lbs of sardines a week add to the monthly budget. I need to find a better price on them.

I don't think you are really changing metabolism but rather a change in appetite that is kind of understandable. We could do that when we were doing feed test.

Ezzy

[SCT]

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why?

[shags]

it's called an appetizer The purpose of fhem is to stir the appetite for the actual meal. Just like at Applebee's.

[Spy Car]

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why?

I'd say it's because when they are eating the food they were shaped by nature to consume—rather than an extruded cereal-based meal that needs to be spayed with "meat flavor" to be remotely palatable—that dog's saliva starts flowing, and they're raring to eat.

Wait and see what happens when they get a full meal made up of nothing but the good stuff

Bill

[Spy Car]

d/p

[Neil]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

[Spy Car]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

[ezzy333]

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why?

I'd say it's because when they are eating the food they were shaped by nature to consume—rather than an extruded cereal-based meal that needs to be spayed with "meat flavor" to be remotely palatable—that dog's saliva starts flowing, and they're raring to eat.

Wait and see what happens when they get a full meal made up of nothing but the good stuff

Bill

Bill why did we know you would have some alternate reason that points to your choice of feed. But let try to be reasonable. Dogs were not designed to eat fish. Most dog food is animal based and it is not sprayed with something to make it palatable. The ingredients are included in the feed and there usually is no problem getting a dog to eat. That has never been a major problem with a dog that loves to eat rotten stinky stuff they find such as the pigeon dropping we have been talking about. And as we all know they are an animal that eats vegetable matter as well as animal based and have for much longer than we have been around. I even see the commercial raw feeds on the market all include frozen vegetables for some reason and most even include some fruits they like. No serious problem wrong with feeding raw but we should be honest as to why and not mislead. That has happened way too often and then when some one tries it they find out the truth and quit because they can't believe what they are told any more.

[Neil]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

Add a fresh cow pile to the choices and I am not sure the meat would always be first. They are dogs, and do eat a lot of things that are not good for them.

[ezzy333]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

Give your kids a choice between spinach and candy and see which the eat and of course will be healthier.

Unholy cat fight!

[Spy Car]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

Add a fresh cow pile to the choices and I am not sure the meat would always be first. They are dogs, and do eat a lot of things that are not good for them.

One of the things I feed my dog fairly regularly is "green tripe." which pretty much smells like a cow pile. It always goes first.

Bill

[Spy Car]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

Give your kids a choice between spinach and candy and see which the eat and of course will be healthier.

Unholy cat fight!

My kid would take his greens over candy. One needs to raise them right Ezzy.

Bill

[ezzy333]

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

Give your kids a choice between spinach and candy and see which the eat and of course will be healthier.

Unholy cat fight!

My kid would take his greens over candy. One needs to raise them right Ezzy.

Bill

I am not sure I believe that anymore than some of your dog food tales but if he does it is because he was taught to eat green before candy like you said. But it wasn't his choice. Bet he is really disappointed if he doesn't get any Brussel sprouts or collard greens when trick or treat.

[Spy Car]

I am noy sure I believe that anymore than some of your dog food tales but if he does it is because he was taught to eat green before candy like you said. But it wasn't his choice.

Like I said, one needs to raise them right.

I'd believe you think feeding candy is better than greens? Or is it only dogs who deserve junk-food diets Ezzy?

Bill

[Spy Car]

So I just quizzed my son (11) about greens vs candy. He chose greens because candy could give you type-2 diabetes, make you lackadaisical, and would lead to poor health.

That's my boy!

Unfortunately the dogs can't speak (in words anyway). But he sure does drool at mealtime. Mmmmm!

Bill

[Neil]

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why?

I'd say it's because when they are eating the food they were shaped by nature to consume—rather than an extruded cereal-based meal that needs to be spayed with "meat flavor" to be remotely palatable—that dog's saliva starts flowing, and they're raring to eat.

Wait and see what happens when they get a full meal made up of nothing but the good stuff

Bill

Bill,

You must admit the above is your biased opinion, not fact. I expect better from you.

Neil

[SCT]

To paraphrase some supposition on the subject of canine origin by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, our " dogs" are very much removed from their distant ancestral wolves, and for many millennium were village dogs that survived as perfect omnivores on human scraps and waste. Their book, "Dogs, A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution" Is a fantastic yet controversial book. It explains very well why our dogs love corn, pigeon poop, skunk carcasses and raw fish.

When I eat a snack before dinner it curbs my appetite, so I don't understand why my dogs appetite is elevated after a raw snack. And, I don't think anyone on this forum can logically explain it either, and it doesn't matter. I still like to learn new things and appreciate all of everyone's comments. But, sick of the arguments so will sign off of this thread!

May your dogs be healthy on whatever feed you use

[Spy Car]

What would you say causes it? Obviously the fish, but why?

I'd say it's because when they are eating the food they were shaped by nature to consume—rather than an extruded cereal-based meal that needs to be spayed with "meat flavor" to be remotely palatable—that dog's saliva starts flowing, and they're raring to eat.

Wait and see what happens when they get a full meal made up of nothing but the good stuff

Bill

Bill,

You must admit the above is your biased opinion, not fact. I expect better from you.

Neil

No Neil, it is based on what I see everyday. Dogs fed meat, fish, bones, organs, etc. are keenly interested in their food that in no way compares with their interest in dry corn.

Do the experiment yourself, put a corn pile on one side, meat on the other and tell me I'm wrong if they dog doesn't don't go for the meat.

I'd accept your word on the results of that test, OK?

Bill

[Neil]

That is not a real test, what a dog prefers is completely meaningless, they are not in charge of the menu.

And you are trying to deflect away from your misstatements.

[Spy Car]

That is not a real test, what a dog prefers is completely meaningless, they are not in charge of the menu.

And you are trying to deflect away from your misstatements.

Misstatement? What misstatement Neil?

Dogs like eating meat and fish, and the like. They react very differently to animal proteins and fat than they do to corn.

I take it you'll admit a dog would almost certainly go for meat over dried corn, yes?

Bill

[Sharon]

So I just quizzed my son (11) about greens vs candy. He chose greens because candy could give you type-2 diabetes, make you lackadaisical, and would lead to poor health.

That's my boy!

Unfortunately the dogs can't speak (in words anyway). But he sure does drool at mealtime. Mmmmm!

Bill

You best correct that thinking Not so.

[Sharon]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

LOl So funny! Thanks.

[Spy Car]

To paraphrase some supposition on the subject of canine origin by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, our " dogs" are very much removed from their distant ancestral wolves, and for many millennium were village dogs that survived as perfect omnivores on human scraps and waste. Their book, "Dogs, A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution" Is a fantastic yet controversial book. It explains very well why our dogs love corn, pigeon poop, skunk carcasses and raw fish.

When I eat a snack before dinner it curbs my appetite, so I don't understand why my dogs appetite is elevated after a raw snack. And, I don't think anyone on this forum can logically explain it either, and it doesn't matter. I still like to learn new things and appreciate all of everyone's comments. But, sick of the arguments so will sign off of this thread!

May your dogs be healthy on whatever feed you use

Steve, if memory serves, the Coppingers refer to dogs as carnivores throughout their book. As in "the most widely distributed carnivore on the planet," commenting on how dogs and other carnivores don't kill creatures they were raised with, or the irony of one carnivore (dogs) protecting sheep from other carnivores (wolves and sheep).

I don't recall them ever calling dogs "omnivores," perfect or otherwise.

When they refer to village dumps—which dogs undoubtedly ate from (and in many places still do—the authors note those dogs are eating "low quality food."

Eating of a trash dump is not the model for optimum nutrition.

I like their ideas about the importance of dogs learning through play. Many people could learn a great deal about canine behavior in that regard.

Bill

[ezzy333]

So I just quizzed my son (11) about greens vs candy. He chose greens because candy could give you type-2 diabetes, make you lackadaisical, and would lead to poor health.

That's my boy!

Unfortunately the dogs can't speak (in words anyway). But he sure does drool at mealtime. Mmmmm!

Bill

You best correct that thinking Not so.

This is true but it will create another salvo. Our farm dogs would eat corn off of the cob while laying in the crib alleyway during the day and would eat their fill of raw beef usually in the evenings but it was available to them when ever they wanted it. We started making fog food because many of the working farm dogs were living a baby pig starters. They really liked that since it was mainly ground corn, rolled oats, wheat midds, soybean meal, meat scraps, dried whey. and a little sugar, minerals and vitamins. I sold a lot of it for dog food. My dogs go out in the corn field right behind the house and come back with ears of corn and the squirrels help them and I get to pick up the cobs after they get done with them.

I am questioning if this thread should be locked since none of us have anything new to add.
Ezzy

[Spy Car]

Bill why did we know you would have some alternate reason that points to your choice of feed.

Not an "alternate" reason, the actual reason. Feed a dog real animal products and they have a different response to food that feeding them corn gluten meal.

But let try to be reasonable. Dogs were not designed to eat fish.

Actually canids in the wild can (and do) eat fish at any opportunity available. Same species as dogs. Wrong (again) Ezzy.

Most dog food is animal based and it is not sprayed with something to make it palatable.

You must be aware kibbles, such as Pro Plan, are sprayed with so-called "animal digest" to make it "palatable." What you are saying isn't true, as anyone can verify.

The ingredients are included in the feed and there usually is no problem getting a dog to eat. That has never been a major problem with a dog that loves to eat rotten stinky stuff they find such as the pigeon dropping we have been talking about.

That a species that will eat almost any animal part happily, including sometimes dung, won't eat some kibble without animal flavoring being sprayed on at the end, only proves how tasteless these cereal-based foods really are.

And as we all know they are an animal that eats vegetable matter as well as animal based and have for much longer than we have been around.

No canid has ever eaten the sorts of industrial by-products found in today's processed dog food. I believe you were about 23 when the first kibble even hit the market. So it has been a short experiment.

I even see the commercial raw feeds on the market all include frozen vegetables for some reason and most even include some fruits they like. No serious problem wrong with feeding raw but we should be honest as to why and not mislead. That has happened way too often and then when some one tries it they find out the truth and quit because they can't believe what they are told any more.

There are some bad raw formulas from companies that capitalize on the same marketing and misinformation the giant dog food companies exploit. Usually that involves adding carbohydrates, that are unnecessary for dogs, because they are inexpensive fillers.

Bill

[Spy Car]

This is true but it will create another salvo. Our farm dogs would eat corn off of the cob while laying in the crib alleyway during the day and would eat their fill of raw beef usually in the evenings but it was available to them when ever they wanted it. We started making fog food because many of the working farm dogs were living a baby pig starters. They really liked that since it was mainly ground corn, rolled oats, wheat midds, soybean meal, meat scraps, dried whey. and a little sugar, minerals and vitamins. I sold a lot of it for dog food. My dogs go out in the corn field right behind the house and come back with ears of corn and the squirrels help them and I get to pick up the cobs after they get done with them.

I am questioning if this thread should be locked since none of us have anything new to add.
Ezzy

I think there are people reading it who are learning something new, it's just not the same stuff you've been trying to feed them.

Bill

[AlPastor]

That is the point you all miss, feed what wins. You have a better feed, prove it by winning.

No, you're missing the point.

You're try to turn a single variate equation, where the genes, training and conditioning are all constants so all we haven't measure is the delta of performance based upon different feed, into a multivariate equation where all 4 of the variables are unknown and only the result is known.

If you're unwilling to try and would rather just feed what your buddies are willing to share with you regarding feed that's fine. However, I'm not sure what you're contributing to the discussion right or wrong.

You have the arrogance to question what I contribute without any qualification of your success? Since I have the confidence to use my real name my record is available for scrutiny, you????

To suggest there are only 4 variables to success in field trials reveals your total lack of understanding, and question if you have even won a puppy stake.

No, my arrogance is me telling you that your reading comprehension is atrocious.

1. I said that your rediculous assertion that one should only use winners feed and your constant need to state that opinion over and over add nothing to the discussion. You're a broken record. We heard it on the first page. We don't need to hear it at least twice every page.

2. I said that there were 4 variables to athletic performance: genes, training, conditioning, and nutrition. You keep trying to turn it into "winning" which you acknowledge is much more complex. I'm glad that you now realize that is a worthless metric. Apply your breakthrough to point 1.

Words have meanings.

[AlPastor]

Anyone with any experience with performance dogs would never use retrievers as an example.

And for those that believe the Iditorid is the extreme test, I counter with there a reason that pointers are not allowed entry and the top contenders often travel South to learn about optimum conditioning.

You're still sticking to the pointer/Iditarod lunacy?

They don't allow pointers to run because they don't want a bunch of dead dogs on their hands that, AT BEST, have to be scraped off the snow/ice with a shovel after every break.

[AlPastor]

Yesterday I spilled some dry deer corn in the dog yard, forgetting about it, I almost had a dog fight when I let them out as they pushed one another to get the last kernel. Dry corn! My dogs must have missed the memo about evolving to only eat meat. I have seen coyotes eat corn, wheat, other grains, and berries; don't know for sure about wolves, but I am betting they too, are omnivores. They all eat green grass, and based on some of the disgusting things my dogs have eaten, I am not relying on them to set the table

Try giving them a choice between meat and dry corn Neil, and see which they go for

Holy dog fight!

Bill

He's feeding Purina pro plan lamb & rice. I'm shocked that their not eating tires and cardboard.

[shags]

Feeding meat and fish to dogs is harmful to the environment. Everyone knows how cattle contribute to greenhouse gasses; their close relatives like deer and elk must as well. And feeding fish depletes and changes the ecosystem in our oceans. On the other hand, feeding cereal based dog foods helps our plant because the plant use CO2 and gives off oxygen. Corn gluten rocks, just like ethanol!

So shame on raw feeders! They don't care what kind of planet our children will inherit!

And they probably keep their dogs fenced and on leashes too. Dogs should be free to roam as nature intended. Look at wolves, they roam at will and don't restrain each other to their dens. Ancestral dogs were free to come and go and so should ours!

Ancestral dogs were not forced to do agility courses, search and rescue, or sniff out drugs and bombs. Yet raw feeders have been known to do these terrible things! Enslaved dogs!

O the cruelty! O the caninity!



OK Ezzy. Is this post ridiculous enough to warrant a lock on this thread? I hope so!

[SCT]

Bill, I will read through that section again, but like I said I was paraphrasing. Carnivores cannot eat anything and everything and survive. Dogs, and omnivores can.

I agree with Shags, time for closure!!!!! So we can start another food thread

[ezzy333]

Nope, no more ridiculous than the others above it. There is nothing like making up facts by saying your opinion is a fact. The bright spot is that most of it is so obvious if you can just keep them posting that people just ignore it. But the sad thing is it gives feeding a raw diet a really bad name. Look at this example;

[quote][/ezzy333 wrote:

Bill why did we know you would have some alternate reason that points to your choice of feed.

Not an "alternate" reason, the actual reason. Feed a dog real animal products and they have a different response to food that feeding them corn gluten meal.
quote]

Has anyone ever fed their dog Corn Gluten Meal? Of course not, but when you become obsessed with something you just have to do all you can to trash it. Too bad, since this would have been a true statement if it was comparing "real animal products" to a dry kibble. But facts got put aside so Corn Gluten could b disparaged.

Shags, your post is no more ridiculous than that. But your hope maybe right as we need no more of this since we have heard it all before and it will just be repeated. This probably has set feeding raw back a ways.

As I remember, the most important thing when you start a research project is to go into it with an open agenda and learn from the results, as research is not doing a project to prove you are right. Those type of test are done completely different and the biggest problem you have is when they prove you wrong. It is very hard to accept.