Here's one for the dog food gurus!

[slistoe]

Bill, thanks for explaining the jest of the study. I would like to save it if you can get the link to work!

Steve

OK, I went through the retriever site and found the original article http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads ... rmance.pdf
This isn't a study about retrievers at all - it is the Eukanuba study on working Pointing dogs which the authors of the paper for the retriever news extrapolated from and added other bits of supposition to.

[SCT]

Thanks Slistoe, I will read it when I get a chance. The second sentence, that starts with "Common sense...." is a good one Purina could use for their products eh?? I would like to see a study that works pointers on treadmills as a comparison, and i don't mean a slow treadmill. I mean one of those sled dog treadwheels!!! One of these days I'm going to build one for myself.

[Spy Car]

Bill, thanks for explaining the jest of the study. I would like to save it if you can get the link to work!

Steve

OK, I went through the retriever site and found the original article http://www.theretrievernews.com/uploads ... rmance.pdf
This isn't a study about retrievers at all - it is the Eukanuba study on working Pointing dogs which the authors of the paper for the retriever news extrapolated from and added other bits of supposition to.

Yes, the test dogs were Pointers. Do EPs not meet your request for studies on hunting dogs?

Bill

[slistoe]

Yes, the test dogs were Pointers. Do EPs not meet your request for studies on hunting dogs?

Bill

Did you not read my earlier post from this morning?

You have been trying to make an argument that modern kibble diets are bad for the dogs, then use a study proving their performance advantages as proof of your concept? Sled dogs don't eat what was used in that study when on the trail. Where is the evidence that if we feed our competitive pointing dogs like they do the working sled dogs that we will see increased performance from them.

[Spy Car]

Thanks Slistoe, I will read it when I get a chance. The second sentence, that starts with "Common sense...." is a good one Purina could use for their products eh?? I would like to see a study that works pointers on treadmills as a comparison, and i don't mean a slow treadmill. I mean one of those sled dog treadwheels!!! One of these days I'm going to build one for myself.

I'd love to have a place I could have my Vizsla tested (under laboratory conditions) for VO2 Max.

Did you see in Coffman how ordinary (non-conditioned) dogs fed a high-fat diet had scores that matched highly conditioned dogs running on a higher carb diet. That's how much difference there is.

Image the VO2 Max on dogs running near-zero carbs? I see the real world results of such feeding every day. I wish I had the data to quanify the experience.

Time to get get the dog out.

Best,

Bill

[Spy Car]

You have been trying to make an argument that modern kibble diets are bad for the dogs, then use a study proving their performance advantages as proof of your concept? Sled dogs don't eat what was used in that study when on the trail. Where is the evidence that if we feed our competitive pointing dogs like they do the working sled dogs that we will see increased performance from them.

Formulas like Pro Plan do not meet the minimums for protein that Coffman (rightly) points out can prevent muscle injury.

Further, what was established was so-called performance kibbles improve performance over more standard kibbles. That is due to relatively higher levels of protein and fat. Which is to be expected, as carbohydrates don't belong in a canine athletes diet*.

Dog food companies are not paying for studies (ones they release to the publis anyway) that show how superior feeding meat, fat, bone, organs, oily fish, eggs, and connective tissue, with no carbohydrates, fillers, or incomplete plant proteins.

Coffman shows that diet matters. If you don't care to realize it is a continuum, and the further one reduces the carb load the more performance continues to improve, what can I say? The sled dog guys know this. Someday the leassons will sink in the gundog community (which is way behind the times).

Bill

* with an argument to be mad about the effectiveness of tiny supplementation when dogs have such sustained demands that they max out on oxygen uptake and move into an anaerobic metabolism (a rare occurrence with gundogs).

[Neil]

I so tire of these stupid dog food circular arguments, where semantics are considered more important than facts. I come here to learn and contribute when I can, not be degraded by anonymous antagonists.

The winning pros feed a quality feed that works, their loyalty to Purina, while intense, is limited by winning. There is nothing contradictory in my comments, if you guys get tired of competing on a keyboard, saddle up and beat them with your super feed and watch their allegiance dissolve.

I was asked which top AA pros and amateurs feed Purina, they are; Lester, Gates, Todd, Hurdle, Anderson, Vincent, Hoffman. They are proud of their affiliation. If you want to get on the steps of Ames, you best hire one of them and they will feed your dog Purina.

I truly don't care what you feed, but until you start winning, please show a little respect to those that have won.

[slistoe]

Coffman shows that diet matters. If you don't care to realize it is a continuum, and the further one reduces the carb load the more performance continues to improve, what can I say? The sled dog guys know this. Someday the leassons will sink in the gundog community (which is way behind the times).

Bill

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 43% calories from carbs is ideal for racing performance for them. So where the break even is for other working dogs is as much up in the air as anything. I am also quite aware that if you wish to maximize growth rate, coat quality and reproductive capacity in obligate carnivores such as mink the feed mix you give will contain some plant matter - so the concept of reducing carbs to zero for any animal may not hold water.
So, continue with your thought exercise.

[AlPastor]

Coffman shows that diet matters. If you don't care to realize it is a continuum, and the further one reduces the carb load the more performance continues to improve, what can I say? The sled dog guys know this. Someday the leassons will sink in the gundog community (which is way behind the times).

Bill

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 43% calories from carbs is ideal for racing performance for them. So where the break even is for other working dogs is as much up in the air as anything. I am also quite aware that if you wish to maximize growth rate, coat quality and reproductive capacity in obligate carnivores such as mink the feed mix you give will contain some plant matter - so the concept of reducing carbs to zero for any animal may not hold water.
So, continue with your thought exercise.

They might be the extreme but they're not the anomaly. Why they're the extreme is not because of the little to no carbs that they need but because they can function and thrive under race conditions on 12,000 calories with 10,000 coming from fat.

If you want to get into anomalies, it is the greyhound (I'm sure other sight hounds of similar build as well) that, according to muscle biopsies, have distinctly different muscle fiber ratios than the rest of the canine world while pointers and sled dogs were very similar in the percentages of muscle fiber types.

Study after study has shown that soft tissue injuries disappear at 32% or more calories from protein.

Study after study has shown that once you top 50% of calories from fat, the mitochondrial density skyrockets and everything from fat metabolism to VO2MAX to baseline fitness increases drastically.

Studies have also shown that there comes a point when you can feed too much fat on a long term or maintenance diet. It is why guys like Arleigh Reynolds say to keep ithe in the 50% to 60% of calories range.

Here I'll make you a deal, pm me what kibble you're feeding and how much. I'll give you back a recipe using it to get you in the 50/40/10 range. You feed it for a few months to the worst dog in your string, keep doing your maltodextrin post race, and let us know.

[Neil]

Coffman shows that diet matters. If you don't care to realize it is a continuum, and the further one reduces the carb load the more performance continues to improve, what can I say? The sled dog guys know this. Someday the leassons will sink in the gundog community (which is way behind the times).

Bill

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 43% calories from carbs is ideal for racing performance for them. So where the break even is for other working dogs is as much up in the air as anything. I am also quite aware that if you wish to maximize growth rate, coat quality and reproductive capacity in obligate carnivores such as mink the feed mix you give will contain some plant matter - so the concept of reducing carbs to zero for any animal may not hold water.
So, continue with your thought exercise.

They might be the extreme but they're not the anomaly. Why they're the extreme is not because of the little to no carbs that they need but because they can function and thrive under race conditions on 12,000 calories with 10,000 coming from fat.

If you want to get into anomalies, it is the greyhound (I'm sure other sight hounds of similar build as well) that, according to muscle biopsies, have distinctly different muscle fiber ratios than the rest of the canine world while pointers and sled dogs were very similar in the percentages of muscle fiber types.

Study after study has shown that soft tissue injuries disappear at 32% or more calories from protein.

Study after study has shown that once you top 50% of calories from fat, the mitochondrial density skyrockets and everything from fat metabolism to VO2MAX to baseline fitness increases drastically.

Studies have also shown that there comes a point when you can feed too much fat on a long term or maintenance diet. It is why guys like Arleigh Reynolds say to keep ithe in the 50% to 60% of calories range.

Here I'll make you a deal, pm me what kibble you're feeding and how much. I'll give you back a recipe using it to get you in the 50/40/10 range. You feed it for a few months to the worst dog in your string, keep doing your maltodextrin post race, and let us know.

The last paragraph is constructive and a meaningful contribution, far removed from kibble bashing and should be applauded, showing this site has real value. Thank you.

[SCT]

Al, I'll take you up on that but I'll put you to task and see where it goes. Here's 3 types that I've fed this last year. PPP 30/20, Nutrisource performance 30/20, and PPP 26/16. All three are chicken based and corn on the two Purina brands but the Nutrisource may have been rice. I'd love to know what I can do with PPP 30/20 to get to your prescribed percentages. Also would like to know about Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete!

Thanks,

Steve

[Spy Car]

Al, I'll take you up on that but I'll put you to task and see where it goes. Here's 3 types that I've fed this last year. PPP 30/20, Nutrisource performance 30/20, and PPP 26/16. All three are chicken based and corn on the two Purina brands but the Nutrisource may have been rice. I'd love to know what I can do with PPP 30/20 to get to your prescribed percentages. Also would like to know about Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete!

Thanks,

Steve

Steve, if you provide Al Pastor the amount you feed he'll be able to figure total calories and work from there to do the math for a specific recipe to reach the target.

Bill

[SCT]

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy

[AlPastor]

Al, I'll take you up on that but I'll put you to task and see where it goes. Here's 3 types that I've fed this last year. PPP 30/20, Nutrisource performance 30/20, and PPP 26/16. All three are chicken based and corn on the two Purina brands but the Nutrisource may have been rice. I'd love to know what I can do with PPP 30/20 to get to your prescribed percentages. Also would like to know about Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete!

Thanks,

Steve

I'd prefer if you stuck with the Purina 30/20. While I believe that Diamond's Extreme Athlete is a better food, I'd like to remove the variable of switching kibble from the equation when we look at results.

Btw, I'll need your address for the steroid, growth hormone, insulin, and epo care package. .

[Spy Car]

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 43% calories from carbs is ideal for racing performance for them. So where the break even is for other working dogs is as much up in the air as anything. I am also quite aware that if you wish to maximize growth rate, coat quality and reproductive capacity in obligate carnivores such as mink the feed mix you give will contain some plant matter - so the concept of reducing carbs to zero for any animal may not hold water.
So, continue with your thought exercise.

You do realize that Greyhounds, while capable of high speeds in the short term, have no longer-term endurance? They run, then they flop. We need endurance athletes.

It is also my understanding that maximizing the growth rate of puppies has a negative impact on their long-term health, effecting joints, etc.

As far a coat quality, there is no comparison between the coat quality of a dog fed a balanced raw diet and a kibble fed diet. No one could miss the difference. Not a subtle difference at all.

Bill

[Sharon]

Al, I'll take you up on that but I'll put you to task and see where it goes. Here's 3 types that I've fed this last year. PPP 30/20, Nutrisource performance 30/20, and PPP 26/16. All three are chicken based and corn on the two Purina brands but the Nutrisource may have been rice. I'd love to know what I can do with PPP 30/20 to get to your prescribed percentages. Also would like to know about Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete!

Thanks,

Steve

Steve, if you provide Al Pastor the amount you feed he'll be able to figure total calories and work from there to do the math for a specific recipe to reach the target.

Bill

Surely this could be some general info for anyone interested. How do you raise the protein level in your dog food whether it be 26/16 or. 30/20 .....?

[polmaise]

I'll give you that diet maters, but I don't buy into the logic that if some is good, more is better. Most papers consider that sled dogs are an anomaly in the animal kingdom. It has been shown in various studies that what applies to sled dogs certainly does not apply to greyhounds - it seems that 43% calories from carbs is ideal for racing performance for them. So where the break even is for other working dogs is as much up in the air as anything. I am also quite aware that if you wish to maximize growth rate, coat quality and reproductive capacity in obligate carnivores such as mink the feed mix you give will contain some plant matter - so the concept of reducing carbs to zero for any animal may not hold water.
So, continue with your thought exercise.

You do realize that Greyhounds, while capable of high speeds in the short term, have no longer-term endurance? They run, then they flop. We need endurance athletes.

It is also my understanding that maximizing the growth rate of puppies has a negative impact on their long-term health, effecting joints, etc.

As far a coat quality, there is no comparison between the coat quality of a dog fed a balanced raw diet and a kibble fed diet. No one could miss the difference. Not a subtle difference at all.
That's nice ..Tell that to a Cheetah .

Bill

[SCT]

Bill, wouldn't feeding raw maximize growth rate?

[Spy Car]

Bill, wouldn't feeding raw maximize growth rate?

Only if the puppy is fed excessive calories. Otherwise, no.

Bill

[slistoe]

Surely this could be some general info for anyone interested. How do you raise the protein level in your dog food whether it be 26/16 or. 30/20 .....?

He already addressed this.
viewtopic.php?f=88&t=50102

[SCT]

Bill, wouldn't feeding raw maximize growth rate?

Only if the puppy is fed excessive calories. Otherwise, no.

Bill

I feed my litters high calorie puppy food starting when weaning begins. If I keep a puppy out of a litter I feed the puppy food until 12 weeks old. Then I cut calories because I've noticed large leg bones start to outgrow muscle, and feet will start to turn out. I point this out to people when they get a puppy from me.

Also, I've never seen soft tissue "performance" injuries on my current dogs other than a couple pad abrasions so I think this is an exaggerated fear.

[Neil]

The talk about diet having an effect on injury got me to thinking, I cannot recall a single one of my dogs missing a trial or a hunt from a soft tissue injury. I have had them killed and one die from a rare aneurysm, a few cuts and bruises, a dozen porkupine encounters, some torn nails and slipped pads; but overall we have been very lucky.

The only ailment I can attribute to food was in the 70's, I had a male dog with a urinary tract problem, the vet put him on Science Diet KD for a couple months. He suspected it was too high protein, and I was feeding Purina Hi-Pro, which is low by today's standards.

I am not sure I would select a diet to prevent something that has never happened.

I don't know what controls they had in the studies, but I believe joint and muscle injuries have a large genetic component, and I breed and pick pups considering that. I think it effects some lines more than hip dysplasia, particularly in FDSB pointers.

Just reflecting.

[Spy Car]

I feed my litters high calorie puppy food starting when weaning begins. If I keep a puppy out of a litter I feed the puppy food until 12 weeks old. Then I cut calories because I've noticed large leg bones start to outgrow muscle, and feet will start to turn out. I point this out to people when they get a puppy from me.

Also, I've never seen soft tissue "performance" injuries on my current dogs other than a couple pad abrasions so I think this is an exaggerated fear.

Steve, I can't clam any special authority on the matter, save being aware that there seems to be consensus that keeping growth rates of puppies (especially in larger breeds) below maximum growth rates is best. From what I know not giving excessive calories (or excessive calcium) is the best way to moderate growth.

The raw diet can be "high calorie" so I just used my best judgement in trying not to over feed. I got good steady growth, but nothing that struck me as excessive or overly rapid. My Vizsla has always been quite lean but strong and muscular. Pretty much ideal to my mind.

I'm glad your dogs haven't had performance injuries, but many dogs experience soreness, stiffness, and cramping after exertion that isn't necessary, and some fare worse. The sled dogs studied get pushed harder than most gundogs, and the injuries tend to be more pronounced. But our dogs need to repair muscles as well. It is hard to see a formerly magnificent dog hobble around in old age. That's part of what I wish to prevent.

Bill

[SCT]

I agree that lean and muscular is ideal.

[AlPastor]

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy

Here is a recipe:

1/2 cup PPP 30/20
2 ounces. Sardines, Raw
1 Chicken Drumstick, raw (~4 ounces)
1/2 teaspoon Coconut Oil
1/2 teaspoon Canola Oil

Total Calories = 483 (1 cup PPP 30/20 is 475)

Calories from:

51% Fat
35% Protein
14% Carbohydrate

If any of the above ingredients is cost prohibitive, let me know. For example, the sardines should be $1/lb frozen in multi-pound blocks. The drumsticks should around $0.50/lb. Costco has 2 giant tubs of coconut oil for $20. Etc

Remember, ease the dog in. If it struggles with loose stools, add a 1/4 teaspoon of psyllium husk soaked a in little water to the food.

[polmaise]

Saw this on another social media and even though it's 13 years old I thought it went along well with what others have posted here. Sometimes through the arguments the quality of the whole program is lost, so being able to copy this explanation makes it easier for me. Note: the Dr. in the interview is an employee of Purina, and a sled dog guy. I've read they don't use huskies as sled dogs much anymore so it shows that it is dated. A good read nonetheless!

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/ ... rmance.pdf

SCT' do you think that dog owners pay as much attention to detail on a daily basis to the food they are taking ?
I wonder how many of those who have posted so far, are either over weight ,under weight ,Fit or Un -Fit

[SCT]

Saw this on another social media and even though it's 13 years old I thought it went along well with what others have posted here. Sometimes through the arguments the quality of the whole program is lost, so being able to copy this explanation makes it easier for me. Note: the Dr. in the interview is an employee of Purina, and a sled dog guy. I've read they don't use huskies as sled dogs much anymore so it shows that it is dated. A good read nonetheless!

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/ ... rmance.pdf

SCT' do you think that dog owners pay as much attention to detail on a daily basis to the food they are taking ?
I wonder how many of those who have posted so far, are either over weight ,under weight ,Fit or Un -Fit

No, But they have the option, our dogs don't. I'm 20lbs over my preferred weight. Working on it though with hunting season underway. Hoping to do some chukar hunting this year and not just level ground birds.

[polmaise]

If the dogs had the same option of supply I'm sure they wouldn't choose some of that stuff scientifically in a bag . Perhaps ?

[SCT]

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy

Here is a recipe:

1/2 cup PPP 30/20
2 ounces. Sardines, Raw
1 Chicken Drumstick, raw (~4 ounces)
1/2 teaspoon Coconut Oil
1/2 teaspoon Canola Oil

Total Calories = 483 (1 cup PPP 30/20 is 475)

Calories from:

51% Fat
35% Protein
14% Carbohydrate

If any of the above ingredients is cost prohibitive, let me know. For example, the sardines should be $1/lb frozen in multi-pound blocks. The drumsticks should around $0.50/lb. Costco has 2 giant tubs of coconut oil for $20. Etc

Remember, ease the dog in. If it struggles with loose stools, add a 1/4 teaspoon of psyllium husk soaked a in little water to the food.

Thanks Al. I remember looking at the cost of frozen, raw sardines and they were much higher than $1 per lb with shipping. Didn't find any locally. I've also heard people poo-pooing feeding kibble with raw.

I like your breakdown, but I'm assuming I'll need to feed 1000-1500 calories according to what I'm normally feeding in PPP. Is that what you're thinking???

Bill, how big is your Vizsla and how many calories do you feed him?

[SCT]

If the dogs had the same option of supply I'm sure they wouldn't choose some of that stuff scientifically in a bag . Perhaps ?

Would they be looking at ingredient labels??? I don't know??? It doesn't matter, we are talking about performance levels here, and dogs are....well...dogs! My older dogs will gladly eat and get as fat as I'll let them. I don't eat like that, as my metabolizm has slowed, so I can't eat as much as I used to, if I want to get off my couch;-) I do eat too much though. No doubt this is more intense scrutinizing when you compare percentages of protein/fat/carb and is more akin to human competitive athleticism scrutiny, but isn't that what we are discussing here? Canine athleticism???

Here is the full version of that study. I would say it is not just supposition.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... h_pointers

[Spy Car]

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy

Here is a recipe:

1/2 cup PPP 30/20
2 ounces. Sardines, Raw
1 Chicken Drumstick, raw (~4 ounces)
1/2 teaspoon Coconut Oil
1/2 teaspoon Canola Oil

Total Calories = 483 (1 cup PPP 30/20 is 475)

Calories from:

51% Fat
35% Protein
14% Carbohydrate

If any of the above ingredients is cost prohibitive, let me know. For example, the sardines should be $1/lb frozen in multi-pound blocks. The drumsticks should around $0.50/lb. Costco has 2 giant tubs of coconut oil for $20. Etc

Remember, ease the dog in. If it struggles with loose stools, add a 1/4 teaspoon of psyllium husk soaked a in little water to the food.

Thanks Al. I remember looking at the cost of frozen, raw sardines and they were much higher than $1 per lb with shipping. Didn't find any locally. I've also heard people poo-pooing feeding kibble with raw.

I like your breakdown, but I'm assuming I'll need to feed 1000-1500 calories according to what I'm normally feeding in PPP. Is that what you're thinking???

Bill, how big is your Vizsla and how many calories do you feed him?

Steve,

My Vizsla (intact) is a little under 19 months old and his weight is usually about 57-58 lbs. He is lean, strong, and at the age where he's starting to pack on more muscle.

I do not feed by precisely calculating calories, but by packing ingredients into approximately 4 oz portions (expect for organs at 2 oz). Then I assemble meals mixing diversified proteins trying to mix up what I have on hand. i will adjust portions by conditions.

A typical daily meal might be:

1 chicken drumstick (4 oz)
4 oz portion oily-fish (sardine, mackerel, anchovies, etc)
4 oz beef (sometime beef trim, sometimes beef heart
4 oz other meat (at the moment I lucked into a nice supply of ostrich, could be pork, lamb, goat, elk, bison, or venison, or green tripe, or connective tissue)
2 oz organs (liver every other day, the "off days" being kidney, sweetbreads, melt/spleen, etc.
1 egg with shell cooked sunny-side up in 1 Tb coconut oil.

The menu changes day to day. I aim for about 10% bone and 10% organ. If the V is looking lean I might add one more portion, but his is pretty a pretty typical daily meal. Some beef heart comes from a butcher with nice amounts of fat, other times it comes trimmed (and very lean) from the supermarket. If very lean I'll balance with a fattier complement, etc. Some days a chicken quarter might serve as two portions (dropping one of the other meat portions) to keep the overall bone at close to 10% of the total weekly diet.

Bill

[polmaise]

but isn't that what we are discussing here? Canine athleticism???

Hmmm , not really .

A good read nonetheless!

[SCT]

but isn't that what we are discussing here? Canine athleticism???

Hmmm , not really .

A good read nonetheless!

Okay, how about nutrition as it pertains to performance?

[SCT]

Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles

[polmaise]

but isn't that what we are discussing here? Canine athleticism???

Hmmm , not really .

A good read nonetheless!

Okay, how about nutrition as it pertains to performance?

I agree it was a good read nonetheless!

[Spy Car]

Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles

What do you mean? Is there something I can try to make clear?

Bill

[SCT]

However, if I had just one dog, I may be more inclined to try a fully raw diet!

[SCT]

Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles

What do you mean? Is there something I can try to make clear?

Bill

No, crystal clear I just can't do the raw thing with 4 dogs. Time and freezer space;-)

[Spy Car]

Bill, I hear you! You've explained this before and I appreciate it, but.......I guess we do just keep going in circles

What do you mean? Is there something I can try to make clear?

Bill

No, crystal clear I just can't do the raw thing with 4 dogs. Time and freezer space;-)

BTW I just ran my "typical meal" and came up with about 910 calories, close to what 2 cups of Pro Plan would be.

[AlPastor]

Depends on the dog and time of year. 2-4 cups should make it easy

Here is a recipe:

1/2 cup PPP 30/20
2 ounces. Sardines, Raw
1 Chicken Drumstick, raw (~4 ounces)
1/2 teaspoon Coconut Oil
1/2 teaspoon Canola Oil

Total Calories = 483 (1 cup PPP 30/20 is 475)

Calories from:

51% Fat
35% Protein
14% Carbohydrate

If any of the above ingredients is cost prohibitive, let me know. For example, the sardines should be $1/lb frozen in multi-pound blocks. The drumsticks should around $0.50/lb. Costco has 2 giant tubs of coconut oil for $20. Etc

Remember, ease the dog in. If it struggles with loose stools, add a 1/4 teaspoon of psyllium husk soaked a in little water to the food.

Thanks Al. I remember looking at the cost of frozen, raw sardines and they were much higher than $1 per lb with shipping. Didn't find any locally. I've also heard people poo-pooing feeding kibble with raw.

I like your breakdown, but I'm assuming I'll need to feed 1000-1500 calories according to what I'm normally feeding in PPP. Is that what you're thinking???

Bill, how big is your Vizsla and how many calories do you feed him?

I just tried to give you the caloric equivalent to 1 cup of PPP 30/20 so you can adjust calories up or down based upon your prior usage of kibble only. If you normally feed 2 cups of PPP 30/20, feed 2 portions of the recipe. 3 cups of kibble, feed 3 portions. Etc.

I've never found frozen sardines anywhere but ethnic supermarkets. If you have an Asian market, they'll have it. Mexican markets will sometimes have it. If you can't find them, I work up a substitute.

And yes, I've heard the whole "don't feed raw and kibble together" camp's argument. It is based upon the theory that kibble will slow the digestive process and make the dogs more susceptible to any food born illness in the raw. Anecdotally, I don't know a sled dog team that doesn't mix the two. Scientifically, kibble actually digests faster than raw meat and bone.

[polmaise]

Scientifically, kibble actually digests faster than raw meat and bone.

I keep saying that but it falls on different ears .

[Spy Car]

I just figured the percentages of calories from fat and protein from the sample meal.

It came out 51% calories from fat, 49% calories from protein.

Bill

[Spy Car]

And yes, I've heard the whole "don't feed raw and kibble together" camp's argument. It is based upon the theory that kibble will slow the digestive process and make the dogs more susceptible to any food born illness in the raw. Anecdotally, I don't know a sled dog team that doesn't mix the two. Scientifically, kibble actually digests faster than raw meat and bone.

You're 100% correct that not mixing raw and kibble together is the standard line among raw feeders for the "reason" you give. I don't believe it any more than you do. There is an associated belief that feeding kibble lowers the stomach ph.

Bill

[SCT]

I will see what I can come up with and try it on my 8 month old pup. The other dogs will freak out though because they all love raw. Maybe I'll add some sardines to their diet just as a snack;-) I did find a source for sardines at a good price, but I had to purchase a minimum of 25 cubic tons

Lower PH means more acid hence the faster breakdown eh?

[Spy Car]

I will see what I can come up with and try it on my 8 month old pup. The other dogs will freak out though because they all love raw. Maybe I'll add some sardines to their diet just as a snack;-) I did find a source for sardines at a good price, but I had to purchase a minimum of 25 cubic tons

Lower PH means more acid hence the faster breakdown eh?

Sorry, I should have said higher ph (less acidic). Mea Culpa.

With 25 cubic tons you should have plenty for all your dogs

Bill

[Vision]

Sorry but the shorthairs aren't the be all end all. I'm more interested in what the pointer setter guys feed. Most I know feed PPP.

Shags is there any difference between a shorthair, vsizla, pointer or setter running a full speed for an hour brace or a 4 hour hunt in how they use energy.

[shags]

Pointer/setter have free for alls and endurance trials. Continentals don't.

[Vision]

Pointer/setter have free for alls and endurance trials. Continentals don't.

So because pointers and setters have 2 trials that are 3 hours stakes and only around a 100 of both breeds run per year that changes the way those breeds metabolize energy from nutrition?

[slistoe]

So because pointers and setters have 2 trials that are 3 hours stakes and only around a 100 of both breeds run per year that changes the way those breeds metabolize energy from nutrition?

If there was no difference between pointers, shorthairs and viszlas then you would see those other breeds in the top level AA trials. They aren't there simply because they can't compete.

[Vision]

They aren't there simply because they can't compete.

Because a pointer/setters physiology is changed by having a 3 hour trial once a year?