calorie implications?

[shootist]

I have been feeding Cash Innova large breed adult. It has 25% protein and 14% fat compared to the 24% protein and 14% fat of the regular Innova adult. I recently noticed however that the large breed Innova has 350 kcal/cup and the regular adult had 557 kcal/cup. That seems like a large difference. What are the implications of kcal/cup? Is more or less "better"?

I'm noticed this because I am trying to decide if Cash needs to be on a large breed formula. I like the added Chondroitin and Glucosamine of the large breed food, but wonder if there are any down sides.

[djswizz]

The only difference is that you're going to be giving Cash more of the large breed food than if you gave him the regular adult. Depends how you want to spend your money. For example, I buy the Performance Blend of Black Gold. It's 400 kcal/cup. I was feeding Iams Adult. It's about 350 kcal/cup. I cut Guinness's feed to 3 cups a day from 4 cups when I was on Iams. My money is going a lot further, not to mention the amazing benefits of Black Gold- What I would do is I would go with the higher-calorie Regular Adult and feed him less (you get more out of your money and it lasts longer) and then if you wanted, add the glucosamine to his food or give him the glucosamine tablets (found at walmart etc.) Don't worry about these that much though because if you're feeding Cash the proper foods (which you are), they are found naturally in foods anyway. Unless he's having joint issues, I see no need to supplement this. However, ask your vet for final approval of course.

[Brittguy]

I believe they do that to better control weight while still giving the dog a more satisfied full feeling. Sort of like which would you rather have at dinner , a full meal or 4oz of a complete daily requirement

[ezzy333]

Right on Britt Guy.

We are constamtly bombarded with the fact that a certain food produces less waste but we don't hear a thing about how satisfied the dog is. Most everyone is more concerned about the slight difference in the excremate that they might have to cleanup insteadof how the dog feels.

Of course, we go by a completely different set of rules when we feed ourselves.

If we fed our kids half as well as the dogs are fed with the cheapest dog food there would be a terrific improvement in our kids health.

Ezzy

[shootist]

I think I'm going to switch Cash from large breed adult to regular adult. He is on the border for what is considered a "large breed". I think it is more important right now to give him the extra calories than to give him the joint supplements.

I never considered calories as a factor. I was looking strictly at protein/fat and ingredients.

[shets114]

I have fed my dogs higher calorie foods for sometime now and the only thing i notice is my dog looks better, runs better and I pay less a month.

I have never noticed my dogs having a unfulfilled feeling. I do feed twice a day and for my 50lb dog I feed a cup in the morning and a cup at night.
my food is depending on hunting or not Perfomance 632 k/cals per cup and when not and in the summer 574 k/cals per cup.
If you can save money on your food you can afford to feed a better food. So for those feeding a grocery store brand at 350-450 calories with Glutens, meals, flours, wheats, soys etc. You can feed something better to your dog for the same money by feeding less.
If you check into it you'll probably find that most foods with higher calories also have a higher percentage of meat based proteins. Mine is between 40-48% . I bet you will find most to be around 20-30%
This is why the dogs don't feel the hunger and such associated with feeding less of a poor quality food.

JMO

Gary

Shootist, have you ever tried Fromm Adult Gold? It has I think what you are looking for. I have fed it before and I know alot of people feeding it and they are very happy with it. It is less expensive than Innova also. Usually about $35.99 for 33# . http://www.frommfamily.com/products-g-d-adult.php

[ezzy333]

No thanks on the "better" feeds that don't have the vegatable protien and carbs in it. I want a balanced feed and also one that is economical to buy and feed. I just switched a few months ago to Cargill's brand from a higher priced feed that I liked real well but couldn't find it with out driving 20 miles and paying 22 dollars a bag. The Cargill feed is their performance formula so it is a little more expensive than their maintenance feeds but I can buy it for 14 dollars for a 40 lb bag at the same store I get my pigeon food from. I am feeding the same amount as I was of the other feed and can see absolutely no differnce in the dogs or their condition. I will get the label and list it here when I go out to the shop tomorrow. Oh, the feed I was feeding is Diamonds Premium and it is a darn good feed also.

I too am only feeding a couple of cups a day but one of the dogs would eat a lot more and the other one is satisfied with that amount. Same was true with the Diamond. Just the difference in dogs.

Ezzy

[big steve46]

ezzy, I pay 18.04 tax included for 50 lbs of Diamond Premium at my drive-thru feedstore. Higher prices is what you get by being a Yankee and living in northern Illinois!

[rottngrl]

Innova's a great feed! Not so palatable, many dogs turn their noses to it. I also don't like how they gave in to marketing shams, and made a large breed formula, which only has less meat inclusion, more grains which is why the cal content is much less. The only concern one would have raising a large breed pup, is that they kept the calcium under 2% (of course in relation to phosporous ratios)

I was also disapointed with thier sad release of their Salmon formula, not sure if they are still selling it, low protein, low fat content - why did they even bother?

Ezzy, why would you think vegetable protein and carbs are good? Corn has the highest vegetable protein, but it is a poor quality protein, dogs do not break down well? Its a poor quality protein some manufacturers use to boost up their protein % when corn is in the top 4 ingredients! Dogs are carnivores and utilize protein from meat best.

[ezzy333]

Rottngrl,

Will you tell me what part of an animal does a carnivore normally eat first?

In all of the experience I have had and in the results from feeding test that have been done over the years I think you are going to upset every major company and their nutritionist if you tell them corn is a poor product. There is a reason everyone uses it. Plus the main purpose of the corn is a carb source. But since there are so many different kinds of corn all with different makeup it is also a good source of protien, fat, or starch depending what you use or need.

Everyone has used it for years because it is good, plentiful, and rather cheap compared to most sources. Plus it is a grain every dog likes and will eat if given the chance right off of the cob. They have done it for years and years long before there was commercial dogfood. The disadvantage a dog had eating vegatable matter was their teeth so they didn't get it chewed up well.

And I think vegetable ptotien and carbs are good is because a dog and every other animal needs them to live and be healthy. And so do we.

Ezzy

[rottngrl]

Rottngrl,

Will you tell me what part of an animal does a carnivore normally eat first?

The point of this question? Has nothing to do with any you said below.

In all of the experience I have had and in the results from feeding test that have been done over the years I think you are going to upset every major company and their nutritionist if you tell them corn is a poor product. There is a reason everyone uses it. Plus the main purpose of the corn is a carb source. But since there are so many different kinds of corn all with different makeup it is also a good source of protien, fat, or starch depending what you use or need.

Everyone has used it for years because it is good, plentiful, and rather cheap compared to most sources. Plus it is a grain every dog likes and will eat if given the chance right off of the cob. They have done it for years and years long before there was commercial dogfood. The disadvantage a dog had eating vegatable matter was their teeth so they didn't get it chewed up well.

And I think vegetable ptotien and carbs are good is because a dog and every other animal needs them to live and be healthy. And so do we.

Ezzy

That is exactly it, corn is cheap protein. The protein within corn is not broken down well, hence being hard on a dogs system, hence why so many dogs have become allergic to corn based foods. Gunky ears, goopy eyes, smelly dog, flaky skin etc.... All the TOP BRANDS do not even use corn, and if ones that do it is not in the top 4 list of ingredients. Allbeit, it is a decent form of starchy carbs. If you are looking to put fat on a dog, I find that corn based foods do so quite well. The dog does not utilize the protein like as with the cals from meat protein is readily available.

Look at Innova, Timberwolf Organics, Canidae, Blue Buffalo, Natures Variety, California Natural (and I could go on an on) THese are great foods, top quality brands, high caloric content, over 40% meat inclusion, none of them use corn.

THere is a reason w hy dogs don't have flat molars like ours to chew and grind up food, cuz they werent designed to.

[ezzy333]

Gee you named every high performance feed and I haven't seen a one of them used at a field trial. Wonder why?

My question was very appropriate to this discussion as the answer is the stomach and the stomach contents. The reason is because they want and need the vegetable based ingredients for their carbs and protien content.

Also there are very very few dogs allergic to any feed they have discovered now but occasionally one is and sometimes it is the corn they are allergic to. And we all need to be thankful corn is reasonably priced as that is just another way to keep good dog food affordable. I like that. In all the years we manufactured feed we never tried to buy the most expensive thing we could find but rather the best ingredient that provided the dogs needs and then buy it as cheap as we could.

You can have your opinions as can everyone else but there are hundreds of dog foods on the market and 99% are good. And most are very much alike and they are for a reason, it's what works. If you find a food your dog likes and does well on it, you can afford it, and its available in your area then you have found a good food,and I would advise you stick with it.

Ezzy

[Wagonmaster]

I have fed Euk. Performance to many dogs for several years. I have no idea if it has corn in it or not, but none of them have been allergic to it, no gunky eyes, etc. It has given me nothing but great coats and energetic dogs, the latter much to the dismay of my patient wife. Same with Purina Pro Plan which we feed the trial dog when he is home.

I do have a problem though. I put out shelled corn in a feeder for the deer. My female GSP goes and grabs it by the mouthful and eats is. No gunky anything yet I am afraid.

I gotta go with ezzy on this one.

[FTbritts]

Use whatever food your dog does best on. I personally feed a 30/20 mix. Field trial dogs may have some of you fooled with all the ad campaigns by some dog food companies. The food alot the trialers actually feed their champions may suprise you, unless they have a food deal of course, which is tough to get even with a multiple champion kennel.

[Kurzhaar]

That is exactly it, corn is cheap protein. .

This is utterly and completely FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!! Corn is a source of CARBOHYDRATES not protein. Using corn as a source of protein is expensive.

For example, right now Protein from corn costs about $0.75/lb. Protein from SBM (a vegetable protein) costs about $0.25/lb. The protein cost from Meat and Bone Meal (an animal protein) is about $0.20/lb.

Jim

[shets114]

http://www.beowulfs.com/magazine/corn.htm

Learn a little more about corn.


Gary

[rottngrl]

I've been to a top feed mill, and have spoken extensively about improving dog foods with a leading biochemist in the field. Corn is cheap, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. (Where in the world did you get those price figures?? Meat is the most expensive protein!). ANd yes, more specifically, it is "corn gluten meal" that is in foods, which is protein extracted from the corn, and is highly processed even before getting mixed in the feed to be made into kibble.

Did you know that Oatmeal has 20% protein???Is also a great carb, since it is a "soluble fibre" type of carb, unlike corn. I wouldn't rely on oatmeal for protein, but it is not a bad ingredient in dog food. But if you want to avoid the "protein" confusion when reading commercial dog food labels, brown rice is a good carb source, and highly digestable by dogs. (Study published by nutrition.org).

Just because the manufacturers I listed are not huge monopolizing companies in the industry, doesn't mean that their products are "no good". And there is a difference you will see in your dog.

I had a friend feeding Eagle Holistic, didn't think his dog could do any better on any other food. I convinced him to try the switch, with a food that was 2x better, and 1/3 less cost, cuz it was a smaller company. He was SHOCKED how quickly he started noticing a difference. Within 2 weeks, his dog was getting a softer, silkier coat, ears smelled less, stools looked even better, and the faint dog smell, went to NO DOGGY SMELL at all.

If you want endurance, its proven that a higher fat content gives dogs the energy for the long haul (unlike us humans, we utilize carbs). Dogs do not use carbs as stored energy, but since its high glucemic, converts it quickly to sugar (like us) and to fat. Dogs don't need carbs. And when I'm talking about fat, I'm not talking about cheap saturated or trans-fats, I'm talking about the healthy Omega 3's (polyunsaturated fatty acids) - are your dogs best friend!

Edited to add:And why would you feed a cheap food? ITs not any cheaper to feed, cuz you just need to feed more since the calories are about half, and the digestability is questionable.

Eg, using my 100lb dog as an example.
I fed a cheaper feed, likely corn based cost per 33lb bag, $30 This might last me 2 weeks, since I'd have to feed about 8 cups per day. (250 cals per cup x 8 = 2000 calories per day)

Feed a high quality food, no corn lots of meat high cal content cost per 33lb bag, $50. This would last me 5-6 weeks, as I would feed 3-4 cups per day @ 500 cals/cup.

So the cheaper food, I'd have to spend $60 per month to feed my dog, where as the high quality food, I am spending less than $50. Hmmm....its a no brainer to me.

[Kurzhaar]

I've been to a top feed mill, and have spoken extensively about improving dog foods with a leading biochemist in the field. Corn is cheap, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. (Where in the world did you get those price figures?? Meat is the most expensive protein!). ANd yes, more specifically, it is "corn gluten meal" that is in foods, which is protein extracted from the corn, and is highly processed even before getting mixed in the feed to be made into kibble.

Did you know that Oatmeal has 20% protein???Is also a great carb, since it is a "fat soluble" carb, unlike corn. I wouldn't rely on oatmeal for protein, but it is not a bad ingredient in dog food. But if you want to avoid the "protein" confusion when reading commercial dog food labels, brown rice is a good carb source, and highly digestable by dogs. (Study published by nutrition.org).

Just because the manufacturers I listed are not huge monopolizing companies in the industry, doesn't mean that their products are "no good". And there is a difference you will see in your dog.

I had a friend feeding Eagle Holistic, didn't think his dog could do any better on any other food. I convinced him to try the switch, with a food that was 2x better, and 1/3 less cost, cuz it was a smaller company. He was SHOCKED how quickly he started noticing a difference. Within 2 weeks, his dog was getting a softer, silkier coat, ears smelled less, stools looked even better, and the faint dog smell, went to NO DOGGY SMELL at all.

If you want endurance, its proven that a higher fat content gives dogs the energy for the long haul (unlike us humans, we utilize carbs). Dogs do not use carbs as stored energy, but since its high glucemic, converts it quickly to sugar (like us) and to fat. Dogs don't need carbs. And when I'm talking about fat, I'm not talking about cheap saturated or trans-fats, I'm talking about the healthy Omega 3's (polyunsaturated fatty acids) - are your dogs best friend!

Edited to add:And why would you feed a cheap food? ITs not any cheaper to feed, cuz you just need to feed more since the calories are about half, and the digestability is questionable.

Eg, using my 100lb dog as an example.
I fed a cheaper feed, likely corn based cost per 33lb bag, $30 This might last me 2 weeks, since I'd have to feed about 8 cups per day. (250 cals per cup x 8 = 2000 calories per day)

Feed a high quality food, no corn lots of meat high cal content cost per 33lb bag, $50. This would last me 5-6 weeks, as I would feed 3-4 cups per day @ 500 cals/cup.

So the cheaper food, I'd have to spend $60 per month to feed my dog, where as the high quality food, I am spending less than $50. Hmmm....its a no brainer to me.

rottngrl:

Where in the world do you get your information?!?!? It is obvious that you have an incomplete understanding of the feed industry.

My prices were generated by doing simple algebraeic equations to determine the amount of protein then dividing that into the cost of the ingredient.

What in the world is a "Fat-soluble carbohydrate"?

Jim

[rottngrl]

What in the world is a "Fat-soluble carbohydrate"?

Jim

Errr, "soluble fibre" = carbohydrate.

[Kurzhaar]

I've been to a top feed mill, and have spoken extensively about improving dog foods with a leading biochemist in the field. Corn is cheap, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. (Where in the world did you get those price figures?? Meat is the most expensive protein!). ANd yes, more specifically, it is "corn gluten meal" that is in foods, which is protein extracted from the corn, and is highly processed even before getting mixed in the feed to be made into kibble.

If you are going to make statements then you must use the correct terms. Of course Corn is not Corn Gluten Meal!! Corn Gluten Meal is produced through the wet milling of corn to extract the starches and oils for use in Human foods i.e. High Fructose Corn Syrup and Corn Oil. The Co-product is Corn Gluten Meal or Corn Gluten Feed depending on where in the process it was removed.

Jim

[llewgor]

I had a friend that had a dog when he lived with me and it had flakey skin and hot spots that wouldn't heal. When I started feeding it with my food and added fish oil, that skin and those hot spots heal up. Then we continued feeding him just the food and his coat had a nice shine to it when they moved out. That dog past and they bought a Lab, a beautiful shiney black dog until they didn't want to pay for the price of the feed. Now they have a corn fed Lab (pig) with a dull coat and sores that won't heal. That says enough for me, I pay 27.99 for a bag of 40lbs feed each month for 2 dogs that's not a lot to ask for.
I never felt corn should be a everyday product in anyones diet.JMO

[ezzy333]

It would be wise to listen and learn when Dr. Jim (Kurzhaar) speaks. That Dr. degree says he has studied and worked in the field for years and probably knows more about nutrition than the rest of us put together.

Or you can maybe even learn something from me as I worked with our nutritionist in formulations, purchased the ingredients, and did the manufacturing and was in charge of the quality assurance for many many years. No degree but years of practical experience.

And both Dr. Jim and myself have bred and raised dogs so we also see the results of our work on our own dogs.

There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion but when someone that knows and gives you some facts, it seems like it would be wise to step back, maybe say " I was wrong" and learn.

Rottngrl you are showing almost a complete lack of knowledge of ingredients and what they provide to the feed. There is no use any of us continue to discuss this and try to help you understand as long as you are unwilling to learn. So lets just go to another subject that maybe we can express our opinions and ask and accept help from everyone on this board.

For what it's worth,

Ezzy