Could this be seizures?

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Taylor_B
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Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:24 pm

Hi All
Looking for some insight here!
We have a 1.5 year old English Setter who is an absolute bundle of energy.
The past few days, we've noticed some very strange behavior.

On Sunday, we were outside in the evening, doing our normal evening time outside (usually out for about 1 or 2 hours). the dogs get to romp around the yard and my husband and I pick the garden.

Needless to say, towards the end of the night, our setter, who is usually enthusiastic and running until we get him back in the house, started to act very disoriented and nervous. He started walking with his head and ears low, and tail down, very slowly. Then he threw up and started shivering. He came into the house, went straight to the couch, and started to sleep - all the while shivering.

He got up later in the evening, threw up again, and the shivering continued. He finally went into his crate and fully fell asleep. I wanted to take him to the emergency vet, but opted to stay home and wait it out since he hates long car rides and the vet. figured it might stress him out more. Later that night, he crawled into bed with us and slept till morning. He was FINE all Monday. Hopped out of bed at 430am, enthusiastically ate his breakfast, and behaved normal all day (played with our other dog, very perky, his normal happy self).

Monday night - we're outside in the yard. He's running around like normal and then BAM - suddenly starts moving very slowly, looking scared and confused, shivering, and lethargic. Came inside: again, he crawled onto the couch, curled up and went straight to sleep, continuing this shivering.

I called the vet and took him in. Initially, because of the vomiting the day before, i thought maybe it was GI related. The vet was slightly concerned about a neurological issue because he was still very lethargic at the office, but to be honest, when he goes to the vet, he pretty much "shuts down." he hates it there, so his behavior is always very depressed at the vet. I told her this, and she wrote it off as an emotional reaction to being at the vet. He passed all of the other "neuro" tests.

that whole night after the vet he was spent - just exhausted after we came home. didn't even wanna run in the yard. The vet gave us antibiotics for what she thought might be a bacterial GI infection.

Tuesday he was still mopey in the morning -didn't want any food-, but as the day progressed - back to his normal self.

tuesday night - normal finn again. Running, happy, bouncing off the walls ...bird dog behavior.

And all day today (Wednesday)- perfectly fine.
until this evening's romp in the yard. all night he was sprinting around, pointing, having a blast - then all of a sudden he was lethargic, moving slow and moping. Came in, started shivering and looking anxious. curled on the couch and went straight to sleep.

I just don't know what to make of this all. The vet initially decided it was a GI issue bc of the vomiting, but this repeat behavior is making me think otherwise.
Any thoughts?

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Sharon
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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Sharon » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:29 pm

I can't say if it was a seizure. I can say that when one of my dogs had a seizure there was no question - it was clear - shaking enough to fall off the couch.

I did a little search and found this :

"Symptoms can include collapsing, jerking, stiffening, muscle twitching, loss of consciousness, drooling, chomping, tongue chewing, or foaming at the mouth. Dogs can fall to the side and make paddling motions with their legs. They sometimes poop or pee during the seizure.

Some dogs may look dazed, seem unsteady or confused, or stare off into space before a seizure. Afterward, your dog may be disoriented, wobbly, or temporarily blind. He may walk in circles and bump into things. He might have a lot of drool on his chin and could be bleeding in his mouth if he bit himself. He may try to hide."
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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by shags » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:09 am

It doesn't sound like seizures to me, from the way you describe it and the circumstamces. Do a search of 'dog seizures' on youtube and see if any match your dog's behavior. Some setters are sensitive to upsetting events and withdrawing wouldn't be unusual. Shivering can be a reaction to stress or pain.

Three things come to mind that I would consider if one of my dogs had that going on.

First, maybe on the night of the first episode your dog into ground bees or some other kind of stinger. I've seen dogs get freaked out by stings. and suffer a sort of ptsd - for lack of a better term - when they subsequently go into the area of the attack.

Second, maybe your dog chewed some grass that had been sprayed with some kind of lawn chemical or insect deterrent?

Third - and kind of weird - but check your dog's anal glands. If he has an impaction maybe 'going' is painful. I think it would ne unusual in a young dog, but you never know. Just last month one of my dogs went through some strange behavior too, being fine then just sick and out of it, over two days finally going down and refusing to walk at all. Bloodwork, xrays, a thorough exam by the vet revealed nothing amiss. Because my vet had had another strange case years before he checked the dog's anals, and they were a mess. Expressing them, abx's, and something for pain had the dog back to normal in a day.

As an experiment I'd let the dog out tonight in a totally different area and watch him like a hawk, to see if there is anything strange going on. or, maybe just leave him in while you garden amd see how it goes.

Good luck, hopefully you'll find an answer.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:45 am

I've looked into the seizures - and noticed that the grand mal seizures are the severe, dramatic ones. I was feeling more concerned about the less obvious ones, but I honestly might just be a worrier when it comes to my dogs!
That said, I'll have his anal glands checked out at our followup with the vet on Monday. They have been a little more fragrant than normal lately (ewww!) so it could be a possibility.

We haven't noticed any bees of any sort, nor do we spray fertilizer or chemicals on our property, so I think we can rule that out. I was concerned about the possibility of wild mushroom consumption, as we've had a very rainy few weeks, and the mushrooms are popping up like crazy. When i expressed this to the vet, she didn't seem concerned at all, and i haven't actually noticed him eating them - it was just a thought because I don't have eyes on him at all times, so he could've found some and consumed them.

Lastly, I've posted to this forum before about this same dog and his weight. This vet actually seemed rather concerned about it (the second vet that has questioned it) and asked about his stools, which are often not diarrhea, but they're also not super firm - they're usually soft. She wants to do testing for Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency since he hasn't gained any weight since he was 8mos old (and instead, has lost 2 lbs). His appearance is what bothered her as his hip bones are quite prominent. Despite adjusting his feedings and adding in extra fats/extra food, he has not gained at all. I wrote that off to his energy and metabolism, but she is the second vet to comment that he appears quite underweight.

I've explained that his energy levels have been normal, up until these strange episodes he's been having.

She explained that sometimes, if a dog has EPI, their temperament can be affected because they'll feel sick to their stomach often. She also suggested that vitamin b12 deficiency, common among EPI dogs, can cause temperament issues as it affects the neurological processes of a dog.

Just very worried and hoping this all finds a resolution! Going back next Monday for a followup, and hoping to maybe get some answers!
Thank you again for the insight!

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by cjhills » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:23 am

Taylor:
Since this seems to happen at the same time and pace it may be worth running her somewhere else.
I also had problems with keeping weight on my dogs. I don't want overweight dogs but I also don't like embarrassingly skinny dogs.
I fed Diamond Performance 30/20 for a long time. I did notice when I opened a new bag the color and odor was different and the dogs stools change in consistency. Sometimes huge amounts and soft stools. I could never get my dogs over 4 cups a day with out large mushy stools.
I always start my puppies on Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice. They do very well on this dog food.
Since I changed my older dogs to Purina Pro Plan Performance there stools have changed dramatically in amount and consistency. I can feed the amount I need to put weight on the dogs. Some eat eight cups a day. It took about six weeks to see the weight gain but it has been amazing. Now I have to cut back on the food. The stools are small round and solid, I never have a dog go in the kennel. The amazing thing is twice food and half the poop or less.
If Your dog does not have consistently round ,firm stools and you have ruled out worms, change her diet. It is neither normal or healthy for a dog to have soft or runny stools.
A dog with prominent hip bones on normal exercise is underweight. IMO..................Cj

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Taylor_B
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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:25 am

Since I changed my older dogs to Purina Pro Plan Performance there stools have changed dramatically in amount and consistency. I can feed the amount I need to put weight on the dogs. Some eat eight cups a day. It took about six weeks to see the weight gain but it has been amazing. Now I have to cut back on the food. The stools are small round and solid, I never have a dog go in the kennel. The amazing thing is twice food and half the poop or less.
If Your dog does not have consistently round ,firm stools and you have ruled out worms, change her diet. It is neither normal or healthy for a dog to have soft or runny stools.
A dog with prominent hip bones on normal exercise is underweight. IMO..................Cj[/quote]

Hi CJ -
I agree that he is underweight, and I'm open to a food change. I just want to make sure he does not have an underlying issue causing the weight loss.
If we can role out the EPI, I'll feel a lot better about changing food and increasing some portions. Just want to make sure with the issue we've been experiencing that we aren't overlooking something else.
Especially with the concern that two vets have expressed at this point. He already eats between 4 and 5 cups per day, plus additional "stuff" (kongs full of kibble and pumpkin; 1 to 2 raw venison meat balls mixed with whole eggs, spinach and cottage cheese)

I've heard great things about purina pro plan - so its something to consider.
Thank you for the insight. We'll also be taking him to another location to run this evening - just strange that these episodes are happening in our backyard - a place that he has been so comfortable in.
I know English Setters our emotionally sensitive though (ours definitely is), and he came to us from a shelter, so we have no idea what his life was like before he was 8 mos old (some people can be cruel to dogs), so we'll see!

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by cjhills » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:43 am

I absolutely hear you.
My dogs go to the vet If I see anything wrong. I do not wait for symptoms to get worse. Most times it is nothing but it makes me feel better so it is worth it. I am not promoting PPP. What I am promoting is monitoring stools. If they are large ,soft and mushy something is wrong. They also should not go more than once or twice a day. The main problem with changing is it takes time to see results. But for me it work great.
Hope all goes well...................Cj

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by shags » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:45 am

I had much the same experience as cj, only in the opposite direction, having noticed changes from feeding a Purina product and correcting them by going to Diamond EA. Some dogs just do better on different formulas. And to make this not an indictment of Purina, two of my older dogs are on Purina Bright Mind and doing very very well on it.

IME dogs with EPI have continual wasting, and icky piddles of yellowy or gray stools. If you look online you can find pics of these dogs, they are absolutley skeletal.

Again, good luck, keep us posted.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:10 am

shags wrote:I had much the same experience as cj, only in the opposite direction, having noticed changes from feeding a Purina product and correcting them by going to Diamond EA. Some dogs just do better on different formulas. And to make this not an indictment of Purina, two of my older dogs are on Purina Bright Mind and doing very very well on it.

IME dogs with EPI have continual wasting, and icky piddles of yellowy or gray stools. If you look online you can find pics of these dogs, they are absolutley skeletal.

Again, good luck, keep us posted.
Thanks Shags -
He's not skeletal, but his hip bones are certainly prominent, and each of his ribs are visible. Not emaciated, like some of the dogs in the pictures on google, but visible, and his weight has not changed since he was 8mos old - despite increasing his feedings. And as a followup to CJ"s most recent post: he's pooping numerous times a day - more than I would expect for a dog. Last night, for example, I saw him go at least 4 times - my husband witnessed an additional two earlier in the day. These weren't flat out diarrhea, but were very soft, started more solid and ended similar to a "cow patty." I don't know if this could be the start of EPI for him, but I definitely want to find out if there's more to it than just food. I'm happy to try other foods, and feed him extra, but I'm just worried there's more to this. Just concerned!

If this is EPI, i'd like to know sooner than later so we can start treating it before it would increase in severity, but maybe this is all a matter of diet? No idea at this point!

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by dog dr » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:19 pm

low blood sugar

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Sharon
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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Sharon » Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:09 pm

I was hoping you'd post. Thanks.
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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by zrp » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:02 pm

dog dr wrote:low blood sugar
+1
But I'd look at a pcv and a tick panel of some sort as well. Good luck and fast recovery. Its almost that time of year again

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:12 pm

dog dr wrote:low blood sugar
Hi Dog Dr -
is there a specific blood test we should have to have the evaluated?
While at the vet, he had the following blood work:
CBC
CHEM 15 W/ Lites
CHEM 15 Catalyst
Catalyst Lyte 4 Clip

(not sure what all of that means, but she said she was gonna do a full blood workup)

None of it was fasting, so I'm not sure if he would require a fasting blood test for blood sugar?
And what might that mean if it he does have low blood sugar? Is there something we should be doing to make sure it does not occur?

Thanks so much for commenting!
-Brooke

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by birddogdoc » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:05 am

I was hoping someone would suggest glucose, as that crossed my mind as well. That would be covered by your chem 15/electrolytes panel, so your vet would have noticed if it was low.

From what I've gathered, it reads as if the OP's vet has made some reasonable recommendations, as have the other members on this post. Run him off site and report back if the same symptoms are triggered with activity in general or just specific to the backyard. If the latter, it may be more behavioral than neurologic.

Aside from the strange symptoms, the amount of food in/feces out seems excessive for a dog in the physical condition you describe. Have you considered starting the dog on a commercial diet (like ProPlan 30/20 or the like) for a month and forego the raw venison meatballs, cottage cheese and whatever else he's eating? I think a test for EPI is reasonable, but my own wallet would prefer a controlled, consistent feeding change first.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by dog dr » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:05 am

only problem with low blood sugar is that most of the time the dog is fine when the vet pulls the blood sample, so it doesnt show up on the bloodwork. you would need to get a blood sample when the dog is acting lethargic/drunk etc. I cant remember how old you said the dog was, but i have seen young dogs grow out of that problem.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:01 pm

I'd have the dog tested for adrenal gland failure.

It might be some sort of small seizure, but they are coming awfully close together for epilepsy and your dog seems to still be aware of what's going on around him.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:09 pm

dog dr wrote:only problem with low blood sugar is that most of the time the dog is fine when the vet pulls the blood sample, ...........
If it is low blood sugar, you can feed a little carbohydrate or sugar and the dog will snap right out of it. Feed a small amount of carbohydrate or sugar right before exercise and it should stop the problem--- although at that age in that size of dog, there would have to be some underlying problem causing the low blood sugar and that should be figured out.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:37 am

Hi All!
Finally got to the bottom of this whole problem.
Several hundred dollars worth of bloodwork later...all is well.

So the lethargic, strange shaking behavior end up resolving itself after a course of antibiotics. The vet is assuming he had ingested something bad (Whether or it was stagnant pond water from a trip to a nearby lake or otherwise) that gave him a little bacterial belly issue and made him sick. She believes the shivering and strange behavior was his sensitivity to feeling nauseous.

As for his weight issues - we had him tested for EPI per the vets recommendation.
The tests for EPI and B12 deficiency both came back negative (Thank God).

The vet recommended we try the Purina Pro Plan Performance food (30/20) that so many of you have suggested in the past, and see if it helps him put on some healthy weight, and firms up his stools.
I purchased a small bag to test out on him and our other dog, and as long as we dont have any serious sensitivities, we'll be doing a longer term trial of that food to see how it works out.

Looks like he truly is just a rather thin set pup, who has a crazy metabolism that burns through the calories we're feeding him.

Thanks for all of the insight! It is much appreciated!
-Brooke

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by cjhills » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:22 am

Glad to here the good news.
It actually took my dogs a month or more to start showing the benefits of changing food. I also thought my male dog was going to be skinny. but he is almost overweight and I have to cut back on his food. The remarkable think is I could feed him ten cups a day of PPPP and he would still poop small amounts of solid round stools The list of ingredients ingredients on the bag does not look that great but it worked for me.
I also have had my dogs on NUVet for a couple of years I think it helps.....CJ

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by frontline » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:35 am

I hope that's all it was. If this comes back I would ask for an ACTH stimulation test to check the adrenal glands, this isn't a routine test but is easy to do. Watch for loss of appetite or digestive issues like vomiting, soft stools/diarrhea.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by dog dr » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:06 am

Taylor_B wrote:
Looks like he truly is just a rather thin set pup, who has a crazy metabolism that burns through the calories we're feeding him.
.... resulting in episodes of low blood sugar. He may continue to have some issues until he gets a little more "meat on his bones", and his body gets used to mobilizing his fat stores for energy.

And I agree, an ACTH Stim may not be a bad idea if you want to pay for it.

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Re: Could this be seizures?

Post by Taylor_B » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:04 am

dog dr wrote:
Taylor_B wrote:
Looks like he truly is just a rather thin set pup, who has a crazy metabolism that burns through the calories we're feeding him.
.... resulting in episodes of low blood sugar. He may continue to have some issues until he gets a little more "meat on his bones", and his body gets used to mobilizing his fat stores for energy.

And I agree, an ACTH Stim may not be a bad idea if you want to pay for it.

Thank you all! If we continue to notice strange symptoms, I'll definitely bring up the ACTH Stim testing.
For now, we're just gonna keep a close eye on him, and help him to gain just a little weight! (he's not a huge dog, so he doesn't need much, in opinion).
We will definitely be keeping an eye out for low blood sugar episodes!

Thanks again!
-Brooke

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