Grain FREE?

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Moonshine Ike
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Grain FREE?

Post by Moonshine Ike » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:30 pm

NO Corn, Wheat or Soy yet, might have brown and/or white rice, pearl barley and other items that would constitute being classified as a grain.

What actually is "Grain Free" ? Are Grain Free feeds better than the standard corn based feeds?

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ezzy333
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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:55 pm

Grain free is Ok but ut is more expensive and is not as good for a working dog. The grain helps keep their weight and energy up. I like to see corn as the second or third ingredient.
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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Gordon Guy » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:19 am

Depends on your dog...Try a bag and see if there is a difference. 2 of mine do much better on Earthborn Grain Free food and the other two would do well on bread and milk. For ease of feeding they all get grain free.
Tom

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Sharon
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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Sharon » Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:39 pm

DEfinately depends on the dog. My dog has a bad belly/armpit rash during July and August. I tried grain-free dog food and it made no difference.
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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by MonsterDad » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:10 pm

I have better luck on grain free foods. I think because overall they are higher protein and fat not so much because they are grain free, although the ingredients tend to better as well. Sweet potatoes, white potatoes, lentils, chickpeas, pumpkin instead or rice, corn or barley. They are overall better foods IMO.

My favorites are the two made by Dr. Tims, they are both 32/18 foods but one is chicken and one is pork and salmon.

Another great one is Nature's Variety which is a 38/20 and is much easier to find. Every pet store and Petco or Petsmart has them and the company is great with coupons.

Dogs do stay trim on them. Muscular but trim. These foods are perfect for Labradors in particular.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by oregon woodsmoke » Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:44 am

(shrug) I home cook and my dogs get grain without any problem. Brown rice, mostly, but noodles (wheat), barley, quinoa, bread (wheat), tortillas (corn). But they are also getting a lot of high quality meat. The quality of the meat makes a huge difference in how a dog does on it's food.

I don't do grain in every batch. They eat a lot of yam, which dogs all appear to love, and some pumpkin.

To me, if a kibble is advertised as "grain free", it had better be grain free. Carbohydrate will often be yam or Irish potato. My personal experience is that a lot of dogs have trouble digesting Irish potato, but the yam is excellent.

Kibbles tend to contain a lot of things that don't look like food to me, but I know that most dogs do well with kibble. Anecdotally, there are fewer digestive upsets on the more expensive kibbles with better quality ingredients.

Corn... I think dogs can digest it OK if it is ground really fine and cooked properly and thoroughly. My dogs eat corn bread and tortilla chips without any issue. But corn is often a heavily used ingredient in cheap dog food, and it doesn't appear to be sufficiently cooked or ground fine enough. Plus lower quality ingredients, all added together and you get grainy corn coming out not digested. I'm not so sure it is a corn problem as much as it is a lower quality, cheaper quality total of all the ingredients. Corn is a sort of marker for a company that is making their kibble as cheaply as possible.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:28 am

There is little difference in what part of the plant you use other than what is stored where. that is the advantage of te seed over the stalk or leaves. Corn for instance is not just a carb supplier such as yams, potatoes, or even rice. Corn is a supplier of oil or fat, carbs, and protein where the others are just carbs with minor other nutritional value. and as far as cost corn does not cheapen the feed near as much as some seem to think. It is used because it is something that dogs like and supplies a wide nutrient base to work with.

Ezzy
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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:26 am

Corn is cheap and it does supply "protein" and oil, but that's not a good thing.

The quality of the oil is highly inflammatory polyunsaturated fat that it is best not to feed to dogs. The "protein" is incomplete in its amino acid profile and poorly assimilated relative to animal products.

Dog food companies get to include these corn derivatives in both their protein and fat percentages. That boosts profits, but isn't a positive for dogs health.

Carbohydrates are unnecessary for canines. The stamina of dogs fed a diet where the primary sources fuel is fat (and protein is secondary) is much higher than those fed carbohydrates.

Carbohydrates cut stamina. That is the same if the carbohydrate source is from grains or some substitute like potatoes or sweet potatoes.

The protein and fat from corn replace superior and healthful animal products but the cheap alternate gets counted the same way on the bag despite the inferiority of the nutrients.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by MonsterDad » Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:53 am

One thing that is undeniable is better teeth on grain free foods. It could be because the kibbles are much harder or it could be the lower carbohydrates in these foods but if you don't notice cleaner teeth and less mouth odor in a few weeks I would be surprised.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:02 pm

You should the teeth and fresh breath when dogs eat no carbohydrates and instead eat meat, organs, and bone.

The teeth sparkle. Breath is clean.

Dogs lack the enzyme that's necessary to digest starches in their saliva, called amylase, which humans and other omnivores possess, so the sugars/carbs/starches in commercial dog food sit in the mouth undigested where they ferment and form plaque and tartar. Somehow we've come to accept that dogs will have yellow heavily-strained teeth as a "normal" condition.

Dogs fed meat, organs, and bones prove there is nothing "normal" about rotten teeth.

Bill

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:39 pm

MonsterDad wrote:One thing that is undeniable is better teeth on grain free foods. It could be because the kibbles are much harder or it could be the lower carbohydrates in these foods but if you don't notice cleaner teeth and less mouth odor in a few weeks I would be surprised.
Clean teeth and mouth odor are pretty much unique to the individual dog and has little to do with diet just like it is with humans. This is evident if you ever have a kennel full of dogs and check to see how their teeth look. Clean teeth usually produces clean breath. We have had hundreds of dogs over the years and as of yet I have never spent a dime on their teeth but their were some that needed a good cleaning but they never devoped into a real problem and there were others that had sparkling teeth at 13 years like the one at my feet now.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:42 pm

Spy Car wrote:
Dogs lack the enzyme that's necessary to digest starches in their saliva, called amylase so the sugars/carbs/starches in commercial dog food sit in the mouth undigested where they ferment and form plaque and tartar. Somehow we've come to accept that dogs will have yellow heavily-strained teeth as a "normal" condition.

Dogs fed meat, organs, and bones prove there is nothing "normal" about rotten teeth.

Bill
I have checked our dogs and they all swallow when they eat and nothing sits in their mouths undigested no matter what they eat. A raw, cooked, animal, or vegetable diet are all good and not a one of them have the unique ability to produce good or bad health. A good dog food is always a combination of ingredients that produce a well balanced diet of all of the necessary nutritional requirements to produce and maintain a healthy animal. This particular thread was about grain free feed and not a place to repeat the same old argument about feeding a raw diet. That has been discussed ad nauseium and doesn't need any further time spent on it.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:50 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:One thing that is undeniable is better teeth on grain free foods. It could be because the kibbles are much harder or it could be the lower carbohydrates in these foods but if you don't notice cleaner teeth and less mouth odor in a few weeks I would be surprised.
Clean teeth and mouth odor are pretty much unique to the individual dog and has little to do with diet just like it is with humans. This is evident if you ever have a kennel full of dogs and check to see how their teeth look. Clean teeth usually produces clean breath. We have had hundreds of dogs over the years and as of yet I have never spent a dime on their teeth but their were some that needed a good cleaning but they never devoped into a real problem and there were others that had sparkling teeth at 13 years like the one at my feet now.
I'd love to see a photo of a kibble-fed 13-year-old dog with sparkling teeth. Care to provide a close-up?

Bill

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
Dogs lack the enzyme that's necessary to digest starches in their saliva, called amylase so the sugars/carbs/starches in commercial dog food sit in the mouth undigested where they ferment and form plaque and tartar. Somehow we've come to accept that dogs will have yellow heavily-strained teeth as a "normal" condition.

Dogs fed meat, organs, and bones prove there is nothing "normal" about rotten teeth.

Bill
I have checked our dogs and they all swallow when they eat and nothing sits in their mouths undigested no matter what they eat. A raw, cooked, animal, or vegetable diet are all good and not a one of them have the unique ability to produce good or bad health. A good dog food is always a combination of ingredients that produce a well balanced diet of all of the necessary nutritional requirements to produce and maintain a healthy animal. This particular thread was about grain free feed and not a place to repeat the same old argument about feeding a raw diet. That has been discussed ad nauseium and doesn't need any further time spent on it.
With due respect Ezzy, you are continuing the canard that derivatives of corn, like polyunsaturated corn oil are the equal of saturated animal fats and that imbalanced corn protein is equivalent to the amino acid profile and availability of animal products.

So when you claim that corn is a good ingredient because it includes fat and protein, it is in the interest of truth to point out why this isn't so.

Bill

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by slistoe » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:07 pm

Spy Car wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:One thing that is undeniable is better teeth on grain free foods. It could be because the kibbles are much harder or it could be the lower carbohydrates in these foods but if you don't notice cleaner teeth and less mouth odor in a few weeks I would be surprised.
Clean teeth and mouth odor are pretty much unique to the individual dog and has little to do with diet just like it is with humans. This is evident if you ever have a kennel full of dogs and check to see how their teeth look. Clean teeth usually produces clean breath. We have had hundreds of dogs over the years and as of yet I have never spent a dime on their teeth but their were some that needed a good cleaning but they never devoped into a real problem and there were others that had sparkling teeth at 13 years like the one at my feet now.
I'd love to see a photo of a kibble-fed 13-year-old dog with sparkling teeth. Care to provide a close-up?

Bill
No photos that I have taken, and I wouldn't assure "sparkling", but the oldest dog I have had was 17. Literally dozens of dogs raised all the way through old age and I have never spent time nor money on a dogs teeth - ever. I haven't cleaned a tooth on a dog and haven't had to have vet service on a dog for teeth. So... I think you are taking "clean teeth" out of perspective.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by slistoe » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:10 pm

Spy Car wrote:
With due respect Ezzy, you are continuing the canard that derivatives of corn, like polyunsaturated corn oil are the equal of saturated animal fats and that imbalanced corn protein is equivalent to the amino acid profile and availability of animal products.

So when you claim that corn is a good ingredient because it includes fat and protein, it is in the interest of truth to point out why this isn't so.

Bill
Well, I will claim that corn is good in a dogs diet because I have tried every possible combination that has been proferred and have found that the dogs performed the best when fed a diet that had chicken by products and corn. Unfortunately, in this age of social media marketing, where dog feeding is a thought process and not a real world one, that diet is becoming hard to find.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:21 pm

slistoe wrote: No photos that I have taken, and I wouldn't assure "sparkling", but the oldest dog I have had was 17. Literally dozens of dogs raised all the way through old age and I have never spent time nor money on a dogs teeth - ever. I haven't cleaned a tooth on a dog and haven't had to have vet service on a dog for teeth. So... I think you are taking "clean teeth" out of perspective.
You must have a camera and some dogs. Take a picture and post it if you care to so others can see what you consider acceptable. Otherwise, I don't get your point.

Plenty of dog owners (most?) accept heavily-stained yellow teeth as "normal."

Bill

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by slistoe » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:49 pm

Spy Car wrote:
You must have a camera and some dogs. Take a picture and post it if you care to so others can see what you consider acceptable. Otherwise, I don't get your point.

Plenty of dog owners (most?) accept heavily-stained yellow teeth as "normal."

Bill
What I consider acceptable is that I have never had to spend time nor money on the care of teeth in my dogs. I don't need a camera to show that.

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Spy Car » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:18 pm

slistoe wrote:
Spy Car wrote:
You must have a camera and some dogs. Take a picture and post it if you care to so others can see what you consider acceptable. Otherwise, I don't get your point.

Plenty of dog owners (most?) accept heavily-stained yellow teeth as "normal."

Bill
What I consider acceptable is that I have never had to spend time nor money on the care of teeth in my dogs. I don't need a camera to show that.
Lots of people don't attend to their dog's teeth, and it shows, but so what?

Bill

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by Sharon » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:32 pm

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Re: Grain FREE?

Post by MonsterDad » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:08 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:One thing that is undeniable is better teeth on grain free foods. It could be because the kibbles are much harder or it could be the lower carbohydrates in these foods but if you don't notice cleaner teeth and less mouth odor in a few weeks I would be surprised.
Clean teeth and mouth odor are pretty much unique to the individual dog and has little to do with diet just like it is with humans. This is evident if you ever have a kennel full of dogs and check to see how their teeth look. Clean teeth usually produces clean breath. We have had hundreds of dogs over the years and as of yet I have never spent a dime on their teeth but their were some that needed a good cleaning but they never devoped into a real problem and there were others that had sparkling teeth at 13 years like the one at my feet now.
I was gonna say rubbish but respectfully disagree is probably better. Everyone is free to spend as little as they want but it is obvious these foods are better. Prices have come down and some chains like Pet Supplies Plus have their own high protein grain free brands that are very competitive with Pro Plan. I remember trying Diamond a few years back, the green bag, and within a few days the dog had a ghastly odor and a month later all four canines were bright orange.

It does matter what they eat.

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