Food Allergy

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cohunter
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Food Allergy

Post by cohunter » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:23 pm

Hello,

I have a 7yo Male Black Lab and we have been having foot issues with him. He was being fed (prior to a feeding trial) Purina Pro Plan Performance. After a change in Vets we diagnosed his food allergy through a feeding trial. He is currently being fed a Royal Canin Duck and Potato. Has anyone ever had experience with food allergy's and is there an over the counter food that int $90 a bag that your dog does well with?

marysburg
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Re: Food Allergy

Post by marysburg » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:14 pm

You can use up a lot of time and money trying different dog foods and doing elimination diets. We fiddled around with our itchy lab for about 2 years, then finally requested allergy testing from the vet. The dog did have food allergies, and it was simple to find the right ration for her. The complicating part was that she had a lot of other allergies to trees and grasses which were not so easy to deal with. After years on prednisone, antihistamines and immune system suppressants, we finally were able to get her on Apoquel, and the dog is at last free from itching. Your dog may very well have a food allergy, but maybe it's not just food. There is no way to know unless you ask for allergy testing.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Warrior372 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:46 pm

A lot of dog food companies make limited ingredient / single protein source foods for situations like yours. I have a preference for Acana and my dog does well with it. Their limited ingredient foods fall under the name Acana Singles. I am not sure what you found with the food elimination testing, but based on your current feed Acana does have a Duck based singles food. Even with the limited ingredients they still run around 27% protein and 17% fat. It runs about $75 for a 26lb bag at the stores I frequent. Obviously check and compare the overall ingredient list to that you are currently having success with. Most of the higher end feed stores will not only give you free samples, but if your dog has a reaction or just refuses to eat the food many with refund your money or offer an exchange. Obviously that varies store to store, but the stores in my area work this way. Many of these food manufacturers will also offer a buy 10 bags get the 11th free, which across the span of the year will get you a free bag. I know earthborn and acaba do this because those are the two different foods my dogs eat.Good luck.

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Food Allergy

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:59 am

I had the same issue with one of my dogs. Spend the $$ and get the test. I found Diamond Naturals beef work well for my dog.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Spy Car » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:12 pm

One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Warrior372 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:49 pm

Spy Car wrote:One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill
That is a great point and one I am sure most manufacturers would be willing to answer for you if contacted. I would assume the smaller / higher priced food companies would be more inclined to do things like clean the manufacturing equipment between food batches. The same can be sad for the manufacturing of processed foods for humans - some select companies see the advantages of cleaning the equipment between batch runs and as a result can safely and accurately note that their foods exclude ingredients x,y,z.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:14 pm

Spy Car wrote:One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill
Bill, I have no idea where some of your stuff comes from but it is completely removed from reality and God knows we have never discussed equipment cleaning between runs of different formulas. Testing of feeds to insure compliance to the GUARANTEED analysis is performed by three entities, the manufacturer, the state, and the federal. The results have to fit the published analysis or the feed is recalled and if the state or federals tests are off the facility is likely to be shutdown till the cause of the problem is detected and corrected. Plus normally a rather large find is involved if there is any reason at all to think it was willful, intentional, or habitual. The results are you will not find a deviation from the intended analysis unless something unusual happened that was not caught and corrected before the feed reached the public. I am sure you will find that feed manufacturers are much more reliable than people posting on the internet since the same people and agencies are checking the feed products and facilities that are checking medical, cosmetic, and human food facilities and products and the same basic rules apply to them all.

Ezzy
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:25 pm

Warrior372 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill
That is a great point and one I am sure most manufacturers would be willing to answer for you if contacted. I would assume the smaller / higher priced food companies would be more inclined to do things like clean the manufacturing equipment between food batches. The same can be sad for the manufacturing of processed foods for humans - some select companies see the advantages of cleaning the equipment between batch runs and as a result can safely and accurately note that their foods exclude ingredients x,y,z.
You will find food allergies are very rare in dogs as well as most other animals and when it does occur it is almost always related to the protein sources in the feed.

Any and all manufacturers can safely and accurately note their products are free of ingredients of x,y, and z but they won't because the law says if those products are ever in house it must be noted on the label for safety sake.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Warrior372 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:54 pm

Food allergies - whether in animals or humans - are a flagged response by the immune system to a protein. With that said, many sources of food other than meat contain proteins and thus can be flagged by the immune system - Corn, Wheat, Pea, Oats, Soybeans, Quinoa, Dairy, etc. Once flagged by the bodies immune system the body attacks these flagged proteins if/when they are ingested into the body and as a result we often see outward signs of this as visible symptoms. These allergies can be immediate - showing up within a few minutes to hours - or can be delayed - showing up days later. So, although meat almost always contains more protein by weight, there are many protein containing components in any said bag of dog food that can trigger the negative symptoms someone is seeing in their pet due to a food allergy, , which can make weeding through it on your own a bit confusing.

To the OP, I am not sure what your local veterinarian charges for blood based food allergy testing, but it may very well be worth it as it would quickly answer your question. You will want one that tests at very least IgG - Delayed - and IgE - Immediate - food allergy responses - with the most thorough and thus most expensive being IgG - Delayed, IgA - Delayed and IgE - Immediate responses. I run blood based food allergy testing quite regularly on my patients and the post diet modification results can be quite staggering. I am quite fair with what I charge above the true cost of the test and this is something that varies considerably from one office to the next as the mark-up on such a test is completely personal to that practitioner / office.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Urban_Redneck » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill
Bill, I have no idea where some of your stuff comes from but it is completely removed from reality and God knows we have never discussed equipment cleaning between runs of different formulas. Testing of feeds to insure compliance to the GUARANTEED analysis is performed by three entities, the manufacturer, the state, and the federal. The results have to fit the published analysis or the feed is recalled and if the state or federals tests are off the facility is likely to be shutdown till the cause of the problem is detected and corrected. Plus normally a rather large find is involved if there is any reason at all to think it was willful, intentional, or habitual. The results are you will not find a deviation from the intended analysis unless something unusual happened that was not caught and corrected before the feed reached the public. I am sure you will find that feed manufacturers are much more reliable than people posting on the internet since the same people and agencies are checking the feed products and facilities that are checking medical, cosmetic, and human food facilities and products and the same basic rules apply to them all.

Ezzy
I can't seem to find any information on the federal or state government batch testing of dog food :roll:

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by shags » Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:18 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Spy Car wrote:One problem (of many) with bagged foods is that what's in the kibble almost never matches what's on the label.

Time and again, when food is tested the analysis doesn't match. Ezzy says that's because machinery isn't cleaned between runs of different formulas. But assuming you won't find ingredient-X in a food just because it isn't on the label is putting too much faith in dog food producers.

Bill
Bill, I have no idea where some of your stuff comes from but it is completely removed from reality and God knows we have never discussed equipment cleaning between runs of different formulas. Testing of feeds to insure compliance to the GUARANTEED analysis is performed by three entities, the manufacturer, the state, and the federal. The results have to fit the published analysis or the feed is recalled and if the state or federals tests are off the facility is likely to be shutdown till the cause of the problem is detected and corrected. Plus normally a rather large find is involved if there is any reason at all to think it was willful, intentional, or habitual. The results are you will not find a deviation from the intended analysis unless something unusual happened that was not caught and corrected before the feed reached the public. I am sure you will find that feed manufacturers are much more reliable than people posting on the internet since the same people and agencies are checking the feed products and facilities that are checking medical, cosmetic, and human food facilities and products and the same basic rules apply to them all.

Ezzy
I can't seem to find any information on the federal or state government batch testing of dog food :roll:
Let me help you out with that :roll:
https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/pet_heal ... _food.aspx

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:41 pm

Did not see a whole lot about fed or state batch testing dog food.
We had chemists do tests on food from a major manufacturer, right out of the bag. I realize large batches may be different. But we do not feed large batches. I also realize this is not a bigtime scientific test and will invite the rath of the dog food expert. They found the food had large variations from the information on the bags. We sent the results of our tests to the dog food manufacturer they thank us but that was all............CJ

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by shags » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:35 pm

i think the point is that dog foods have to meet minimum/maximum requirements. Check your bags, don't they say something like 'no less than' for some things and 'no more than' for others? Nothing says they have to have exact amounts or ratios of anything. No dog food manufacturer that I'm aware of states that, either.

I don't think even processed food for people has exactly how much of what is on the label.

Unless you mean that a feed stated something like 'no wheat or wheat products' and then wheat was found in it.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:09 pm

cjhills wrote:Did not see a whole lot about fed or state batch testing dog food.
We had chemists do tests on food from a major manufacturer, right out of the bag. I realize large batches may be different. But we do not feed large batches. I also realize this is not a bigtime scientific test and will invite the rath of the dog food expert. They found the food had large variations from the information on the bags. We sent the results of our tests to the dog food manufacturer they thank us but that was all............CJ
CJ have no idea what you are talking about with general statements that mean little. I understand why you got no reply if you gave them no info either. Fill us in, would be interesting what you were testing and finding large variations. I am with Shags and somewhat confused.
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Re: Food Allergy

Post by cjhills » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:34 pm

Shags, the bags on both Diamond and PPP and probably all dog food say guaranteed analysis. Now, to me that would mean this is what is in the dog food not approximately or more or less.
Ezzy, We checked the fat and protein of the food on 50 bags each of different batch numbered 30/20performance from several manufacturers and found the protein varied about 10% percent from the analysis, higher and lower, in most of them. Fat was a little closer but not much.
We did this because we found so much inconsistency in some brands mostly manufactured by Diamond. Dogs had good stools with one bag and loose stools with the next. Also maintaining weight was nearly impossible. Trying to raise the amount of food caused extremely loose stools. When I changed to a food which was consistent in the fat and protein I could feed any amount without the huge loose stools.
I already stated that I do not see this as a major scientific study.
I really have absolutely no interest in whether what you think of our experiment and being insulted about how little we know about dog food. It is what has worked for us.........Cj

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by shags » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:46 am

cj-

The guaranteed analysis with the caveats of "at least" and "not more than" does allow for some fluctuation. I learned a bit about this when I was researching a suitable food for an old dog with kidney problems, and phosphorous content was an issue.

Your experience with Diamond is contrary to mine. I have found it to be very consistent bag to bag, and have never had any problems with dogs' condition or stools. I've been feeding EA for years to 4-6 dogs. I wonder if it has anything to do with where it's made? On the other hand, the reason I switched from PPP was that every new bag was different in color and smell.

A friend is a pro handler of show dogs, and has had problems like you describe with several very high end feeds.

Bottom line, whatever works...

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by cjhills » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:07 am

shags wrote:cj-

The guaranteed analysis with the caveats of "at least" and "not more than" does allow for some fluctuation. I learned a bit about this when I was researching a suitable food for an old dog with kidney problems, and phosphorous content was an issue.

Your experience with Diamond is contrary to mine. I have found it to be very consistent bag to bag, and have never had any problems with dogs' condition or stools. I've been feeding EA for years to 4-6 dogs. I wonder if it has anything to do with where it's made? On the other hand, the reason I switched from PPP was that every new bag was different in color and smell.

A friend is a pro handler of show dogs, and has had problems like you describe with several very high end feeds.

Bottom line, whatever works...
No caveats. Just guaranteed analysis

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:22 am

Any guaranteed analysis has a slight leeway in dog food just as it has in any other case but no where near what you are professing. There are several reasons that your test may have been that far off and the first one is the sampling procedure. There is a set protocol that must be followed for any and all official sampling if you need to rely on the results. But you can be sure, given correct samples the results you had would have resulted in the product being taken off of the market. Plus fat differences as large as you showed would have effected the manufacturing to the extent that the pelleting or extruding procedures would have failed. That very well might have been the reason the company didn't respond as they probably already had the results of their testing of those batches. Would be interesting to know.

Like shags, I have fed Diamond for years and as of yet never found a problem.
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by Spy Car » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:47 am

ezzy333 wrote: Bill, I have no idea where some of your stuff comes from but it is completely removed from reality and God knows we have never discussed equipment cleaning between runs of different formulas. Testing of feeds to insure compliance to the GUARANTEED analysis is performed by three entities, the manufacturer, the state, and the federal. The results have to fit the published analysis or the feed is recalled and if the state or federals tests are off the facility is likely to be shutdown till the cause of the problem is detected and corrected. Plus normally a rather large find is involved if there is any reason at all to think it was willful, intentional, or habitual. The results are you will not find a deviation from the intended analysis unless something unusual happened that was not caught and corrected before the feed reached the public. I am sure you will find that feed manufacturers are much more reliable than people posting on the internet since the same people and agencies are checking the feed products and facilities that are checking medical, cosmetic, and human food facilities and products and the same basic rules apply to them all.

Ezzy
Ezzy, before you start accusing people of inventing things, you should remember the forums are searchable. There was a whole thread on cross-contamination and faulty labeling of kibbles in which exchange you said:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=37745
ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: I do question if bison meat got into it but the DNA could show it if the equipment wasn't steam cleaned before the manufacturing, and I'm sure it isn't for animal feed.

Ezzy
During the Diamond South Carolina plant salmonella recall earlier this year, several Natural Balance formulas were pulled. They included Limited Ingredient Diet formlas with venison, bison and lamb. I don't understand your comment about "it not being for animal feed," because several companies offer venison formulas and several offer bison. Run crossover could cause residue from any of those meats to show up in other formulas since we know there was a sanitation issue.
Lets see if I can make it clearer. The cross contamination that was discovered could have been from DNA testing which could show up in the feed unless they steam clean the equipment between runs and I doubt if they do since they are manufacturing animal feed instead of human food. Normally they just flush the equipment due to the exceedingly high cost that hand cleaning and sterlization would do to the price of the feed being produced.

Ezzy

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:19 pm

If you note, our discussion was on method of cleaning and not that it wasn't cleaned. Finding a trace of DNA does not tell me the equipment wasn't cleaned to a level that is sufficient for animal feed. You will never find equipment that is checked that close in animal or human food and you won't find people paying for that kind of test either unless they are trying to find something they could use in a lawsuit. We are talking about the recommended and normal protocol used in a feed mill, not a hospital or pharmaceutical company. Maybe it would help to unders5tand what you are talking about

This seems like an odd conversation to even be having when many people do not even have a clue what they are feeding when they buy something from a supplier that has no guarantee of anything but they claim it is the best way to feed.

Al
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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by luvthemud » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:05 pm

to the OP: good luck in your quest.

As others have mentioned, I would get a blood test done. While the accuracy of the blood/allergy testing is questioned by some, it is still worthwhile. You will drive yourself MAD simply trying to pinpoint a certain ingredient that is the cause. When my dog was having what the vet told me were allergy issues, I attempted to discover the cause myself. I purchased numerous different foods and would chart their ingredients in an excel spreadsheet to find commonalities and differences and compare to how he reacted. After speaking to a relative who is a vet, he suggested the blood work. He also gave me a very good piece of advice regarding allergies: sometimes it isn't ONE thing. He explained it that there is a magic number that will cause issues, lets say 100. The dog may get 20 from outside irritants, another 30 from in home irritants, and then a certain ingredient in the food might be the 50 that puts the dog over. He said very rarely do dogs that suffer from sever allergies ever get cured by elimination because so many other things are contributing. He is a standard DVM, so he admits he is no expert, but it seemed to make sense to me at the time.

With all that said, I found that my dog seemed to do best on "wellness core", "acana", and "fromm 4 star" dog food. It could have been "all in my head" or simply that the environment slowed down the allergies, but I liked those when I fed them.

Again, Good luck.

one more thing: a friend of mine also has a lab that starting getting hot spots and chewing on his feet. He was a PPP feeder. He changed to a different food, still a PPP formula, and the problem got better. He still gets it, but only in the spring now versus year round??! so perhaps maybe just a gradual formula change instead of a complete brand change would be worth a shot and maybe easier on the pocketbook and your dog's stomach?
Last edited by luvthemud on Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:42 pm

Luvthemud

Good post and what seems to happen quite often. Just so many places to look you will seldom find it with out help of some kind and quite often they seem to out grow it or at least get over it in time.

Good luck
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It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: Food Allergy

Post by cjhills » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Any guaranteed analysis has a slight leeway in dog food just as it has in any other case but no where near what you are professing. There are several reasons that your test may have been that far off and the first one is the sampling procedure. There is a set protocol that must be followed for any and all official sampling if you need to rely on the results. But you can be sure, given correct samples the results you had would have resulted in the product being taken off of the market. Plus fat differences as large as you showed would have effected the manufacturing to the extent that the pelleting or extruding procedures would have failed. That very well might have been the reason the company didn't respond as they probably already had the results of their testing of those batches. Would be interesting to know.

Like shags, I have fed Diamond for years and as of yet never found a problem.
Ezzy
The thing is how we take the sample has nothing to do with it. We were not testing a large batch, we were testing what was in the bags. That is what goes into our dogs. It is a pretty simple thing to take out a couple samples and test.
We did enough teats on some bags to see if we were getting consistent results. We were.
We also thought it would be interesting to know. The company didn't...........................Cj

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