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titers

Postby cjhills » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:05 am

Does anybody do Titer tests on their dogs? Seems like it could eliminate a lot of unnecessary vaccination if they are reliable.........Cj
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:15 am

Yes, our breeder advised us to 'Titer' to avoid giving dogs injections that are not necessary. As an owner of Golden Retrievers for over 30 years I can say that every one of my dogs that died, died of cancer! This disease if common in Goldens but, Titering may help us avoid this terrible death in some of our dogs. It takes a bit of effort to get your vet or find a vet that will work with you on titers....but I hope to have one Golden die from old age.... :mrgreen:
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Re: titers

Postby MonsterDad » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:31 am

It is totally useless, unless you want to spend money for something you already know. Besides it only shows exposure and not immunity.
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:41 am

MonsterDad wrote:It is totally useless, unless you want to spend money for something you already know. Besides it only shows exposure and not immunity.



Our vets, our primary breeder and the Universities of Colorado State, and Michigan disagree with you, as do I!
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Re: titers

Postby MonsterDad » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:19 am

Timewise65 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:It is totally useless, unless you want to spend money for something you already know. Besides it only shows exposure and not immunity.



Our vets, our primary breeder and the Universities of Colorado State, and Michigan disagree with you, as do I!


It is your money waste it if you will. It is common knowledge that neither high levels or low levels are an accurate judge of immunity.

People often assume that low titers mean low immunity and this is simply false.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:21 am

If I understand this right booster shots do not increase immunity and the only reason for them is to insure that the puppy develops immunity from the vaccinations. Some say older dogs to not need boosters.
Basically the pup is either immune or it isn't. It would seem like a simple thing to test. But, nobody knows. UofW had some research that indicated rabies shot could be at least every seven years. We do not hear much about that lately. Vets would be losing a lot of income if they advocated 5 Year shots. Who Knows...........Cj
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:19 am

MonsterDad wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:
MonsterDad wrote:It is totally useless, unless you want to spend money for something you already know. Besides it only shows exposure and not immunity.



Our vets, our primary breeder and the Universities of Colorado State, and Michigan disagree with you, as do I!


It is your money waste it if you will. It is common knowledge that neither high levels or low levels are an accurate judge of immunity.

People often assume that low titers mean low immunity and this is simply false.



And your 'Sources' are? Common Knowledge does not pass the 'smell test'! I will mention also that our Boarding Kennel accepts 'Titer' results in the place of 'vaccinations'! They do this because the State of Missouri also accepts tittering for Boarding Kennels!

All I have to offer are FACTS.....not "Common Knowledge"! :mrgreen:
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:50 am

How do you account for an individual's own immune response? A "high" titer might not be enough to protect a dog, while a "low" number might be adequate for another.
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:01 am

shags wrote:How do you account for an individual's own immune response? A "high" titer might not be enough to protect a dog, while a "low" number might be adequate for another.


I leave that to my vet.....!
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:33 pm

And if your vet recommended yearly vaccination, you'd go along with that, or shop for a new vet?
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:32 pm

shags wrote:And if your vet recommended yearly vaccination, you'd go along with that, or shop for a new vet?

Don't know about Timewise, but I would definitely would look for a new vet if they would not go for two years. Three would be better. I have already done that....Cj
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Re: titers

Postby mask » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:35 pm

What about lepto vaccine in an area with lots of fox, coyotes, coons, and skunks?
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:55 pm

cjhills wrote:
shags wrote:And if your vet recommended yearly vaccination, you'd go along with that, or shop for a new vet?

Don't know about Timewise, but I would definitely would look for a new vet if they would not go for two years. Three would be better. I have already done that....Cj


So you would rely more on your idea about what vaccination regimen is appropriate, rather than rely on a professional's opinion?

Do you question much of your vet's advice? If you read some research online that fish oil twice a day would fix say, Lyme disease, and your vet advised a costly antibiotic, which would you choose, and why?

I wonder in part because we've seen the results of human anti-vax movement with the increase of childhood disease that previously were pretty much eradicated in the US. In my area there has been in the last few years, an uptick in parvo and distemper in dogs. I know from working in medical/chemical research, that it's not unusual for lab results to not reflect real life situations.

One of my vets had a pretty good answer when I asked him about yearly vaccination. He asked me "Would you cry if your animal got sick? If not, don't bother to vaccinate. If you'll cry, do them." I don't wanna cry :wink:
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:30 pm

Yes, I question my vet. Most all vets tell me my dogs are underweight. They are wrong about that. I want to be involved in my dogs care. I believe from the research done at the university of Wisc. That Rabies shots could be five years at least. I am quite convinced that we are overvaccinating our dogs.
That was the reason for my post. If there is a better way I want to know.
I would not use fish oil to treat Lymes or any other internet cure. Nor would I use a expensive antibiotic prescribed by my vet.Past experience tells me to use Doxy which I can buy quite reasonable from my poultry med supplier. The same as my Doctor gives me for Lymes.
the uptick in diseases is very likely from not vaccinating at all. I give only rabies shots after the dogs are seven years old. Have to give Rabies to follow the law.
Would you cry if your dog got cancer from over vaccinating. Could happen. We don't know. But we do know that two year shots work. In my life, with hundreds of dogs, I have had one puppy die from Parvo. The only Dog that died from a disease there was a vaccination for. That was lack of Knowledge on my part. All others died from some form of cancer late in there life. Or were put down when they started losing their dignity.
Vets need to maintain their practice. Vaccinations are a huge source of income.
As with most dog related subjects we just do not know. We need to decide For ourselves which way to go. It is mostly about what makes us feel good.
Mask
I live in the same area as all those critters Plus wolves and other critters. Some vets vaccinate for Lepto and some don't. I have never seen it.....................Cj
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:49 am

Maybe there is more a genetic component to cancer than it developing because of vaccinations. With certain breeds cancer is part of the risk - greyhounds and rotties for osteosarcoma, goldens with lymphoma, some setters with hemangiosarcoma, and of course pointers with whatever.

I would like to access the Wisconsin research papers. It would seem, without seeing them, that their evidence might be anecdotal since to have controlled studies they'd need hundreds of individual dogs from many different breeds. That would require facilities beyond the scope of most research departments. Anecdotal data can lead to some more or less valid conclusions, but it isn't the be all end all by any means.

My own anecdotal experience with canine cancer is with Irish Setters. One had lymphoma, one had osteosarcoma, and they were from the same bloodline. Come to find out that line had a fairly high mortality rate due to cancers.

Maybe decreasing vaccinations in dogs of certain breeds or bloodlines would help to decrease cancer mortality, but as you say, who knows? If it's in the DNA, you've got a risk factor that's hard to overcome.

As an aside concerning dogs' body weight...I took one of my setters to Ohio State for an ortho problem and the lead vet gathered the students around him so they could see what a fit intact male dog looks like. She told us the kids didn't get to see one very often. My own vet stays on top of upgrading his imaging equipment because fat dogs present some problems in getting good views. It's unfortunate that owners boast about owning big specimens of their breeds, when the dogs aren't large, they're obese. It's even worse that some veterinary professionals are so used to seeing overweight animals that they can no longer recognize ones which are fit.

Best wishes for all our dogs' health and well being no matter our vax protocols or preferred feeds 8) We all do the best we can for our dogs.
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:06 am

cjhills wrote:
shags wrote:And if your vet recommended yearly vaccination, you'd go along with that, or shop for a new vet?

Don't know about Timewise, but I would definitely would look for a new vet if they would not go for two years. Three would be better. I have already done that....Cj


cjhills..............I agree 100% with what you are saying. Our vet was one who helped us learn to use 'Titers'....Over the years have had 8 Golden Retrievers, 3 of which are still with me! All of them so far have died from Cancer! In each dog I tried to find a dog that had parents and grandparents who lived long. My oldest now is 12 going on 13....so far so good! My trainers and breeders said follow Titers! Also the University of Wisconsin's vet school research was part of what convinced us....

The 'Vet" who used the cry comment was like the doctor I had who prescribed a drug for me that had tons of side affects. I ask him why, he said get sick from side effects or get sick from the disease....I think the side effects are less dangerous....I found a new doctor who gave me a number of better options.....

:mrgreen:
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:21 am

That is one other thing I was going to point out.
I do not necessarily agree with everything my doctor tells me either.
In the case of my health and my dogs' health, I like to be proactive. I consider both a partnership. We have beat three kinds of cancer with that approach and the doctors at Mayo will tell you they do not agree on what is the right approach...... Cj
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:59 am

Timewise, you have no idea about my "cry" vet so please refrain from snarky comments. Because of him we have dogs living well into their teens and horses who live 35+ years old.
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Re: titers

Postby Timewise65 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:51 am

shags wrote:Timewise, you have no idea about my "cry" vet so please refrain from snarky comments. Because of him we have dogs living well into their teens and horses who live 35+ years old.


Shags....Nothing "Snarky" about my comment simply referring to your vets question that you provided and relating it to my personal experience....!

If you were offended, that was not my intent!
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Re: titers

Postby mask » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:51 am

OK I have six English pointers and vaccinate my own dogs so the expense is not an issue. What is the answer as to how often to vaccinate? Parvo, distemper, and lepto are prevalent here so how often?
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:45 pm

mask wrote:OK I have six English pointers and vaccinate my own dogs so the expense is not an issue. What is the answer as to how often to vaccinate? Parvo, distemper, and lepto are prevalent here so how often?

That is the question. Nobody has the answer. My hope was that Titers would tell.
I do all my shots every two years. My regular vet Charges $28 for the 5 way shot and the same for Rabies. Also $66 for a exam. In twenty years of probably 10 exams a year they found one broken tooth. The shots probably cost them about $1.00 each.
To do eight dogs costs over a grand. If I used what they want to sell me for Heartworm that would be nearly another grand. Plus they want to do a blood test. I do not see the vets giving up this very lucrative practice without a fight.
I found another vet that will come to my kennel and give the shots for less than $300.
It seems to me our dogs that lived on table scraps and whatever they could find to eat and had no shots or worming lived as long as the dogs do now. Maybe not. I never heard of a dog with Rabies in my life..........Cj
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:54 am

You can check your state public health website for info about rabies. If you go out of state to hunt, take a look at those too, just to be on the safe side. Here's a story of interest http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/35957220/12 ... -treatment

The number of dogs we keep is not the vets' responsibility, it's ours. When we keep lots of dogs the expense is significant, but I don't think we should blame the vet for those big bills. They are obligated to provide a Standard of Care and that includes exams before vaccinations and blood tests before HW meds. So it may not be fair to gripe about the cost. Might be that some of us are really in tune with our dogs' health and any physical problems they have, so exams don't reveal anything much. But there are people who are clueless and kind of ignorant about animal health whose pets benefit from those yearly exams.

I think there are some things to consider. First, who would you call when your is injured or sick - TSC? There is lot we can do on our own as far as routine vet care, but I sure want my vet in my back pocket when something big goes down.

Secondly, if we're griping about vet charges while the guy is billing for services rendered, would we also be OK with our employers griping and going a cheaper route when it comes to our paychecks? Does a plumber or mechanic or UPS delivery guy earn his living any more fairly than a vet?

Lastly, we are free to shop around for a vet whose practice and pricing suits our needs best. Some practices have bigger overhead costs than others and they may charge more. We can find a vet who is willing to work with us on things like alternatives to treatments, price matching, etc.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:30 am

shags wrote:You can check your state public health website for info about rabies. If you go out of state to hunt, take a look at those too, just to be on the safe side. Here's a story of interest http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/35957220/12 ... -treatment

The number of dogs we keep is not the vets' responsibility, it's ours. When we keep lots of dogs the expense is significant, but I don't think we should blame the vet for those big bills. They are obligated to provide a Standard of Care and that includes exams before vaccinations and blood tests before HW meds. So it may not be fair to gripe about the cost. Might be that some of us are really in tune with our dogs' health and any physical problems they have, so exams don't reveal anything much. But there are people who are clueless and kind of ignorant about animal health whose pets benefit from those yearly exams.

I think there are some things to consider. First, who would you call when your is injured or sick - TSC? There is lot we can do on our own as far as routine vet care, but I sure want my vet in my back pocket when something big goes down.

Secondly, if we're griping about vet charges while the guy is billing for services rendered, would we also be OK with our employers griping and going a cheaper route when it comes to our paychecks? Does a plumber or mechanic or UPS delivery guy earn his living any more fairly than a vet?

Lastly, we are free to shop around for a vet whose practice and pricing suits our needs best. Some practices have bigger overhead costs than others and they may charge more. We can find a vet who is willing to work with us on things like alternatives to treatments, price matching, etc.

I guess I do not quite get this post.
everyone who reads it already knows every thing in it. Do you really think I don't know having more dogs is more costly. We really do not need a explanation of how economics work.
I have had the same vet for twenty years. I thought we had a very good relationship. They helped me through several health issues.
When I had my dogs shots done with a different vet they would not treat my dog who was injured in a fight without updated her shots. seven months after she had them and I had records from a mn. licensed vet. That is when I started viewing my vet differently. This is profit oriented. They also would not treat a serious cut on my sons dog after hours, Saying it was too expensive and she would be fine until the next day.Found out the cost would have been $200, which they gladly would have paid. Next day surgery did not work because the skin had died. Extra surgery $400.
Vet business is based on pet owner business which is largely based on emotion. I know my vets have prescribed antibiotics my dogs did not need because they would not hurt. Breeders have a hard time finding a vet who understands breeding as a business and what is a breedable dog. They do not learn that in vet school. They do learn about running a profitable business. Most I have talked to do not even read the available research.
If as you say you are in research where does the funding for medical research come from. Do you really think the AVMA is supporting reseach that would advocate less vaccines. Well they are not.
I am in tuned with my dogs and I am very quick to take a dog to the vet because I think the quicker the better. I absolutely believe in a good relationship with my vet and I want them there when I need them. For that reason I don't do my own shots or tail docking, both of which I could easily do. I wish I good find one who felt the same way. Now they want to give puppies Four rounds of shots.
Thanks..........Cj
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Re: titers

Postby shags » Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:33 pm

Wow, CJ. Who could blame you for looking for a new vet after those experiences? That's a terrible way to treat a client.

I think I'll bake a batch of cookies for my vets. They've been great, not cheap by any means, but I have their cell phone number for after hours stuff, and they help with questions via email.

I hope you are able to find someone who does good by you and the dogs. Best wishes!
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Re: titers

Postby mask » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:53 pm

Shags, do you vaccinate every year?
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Re: titers

Postby ezzy333 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:02 pm

Not telling others to do like I do but I have always given all of the puppy shots and that is the last any of my dogs have had over the years except for the rabies. Never encountered a problem.

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Re: titers

Postby shags » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:24 pm

mask wrote:Shags, do you vaccinate every year?


Yes. I discussed it with my vet and made that decision. In 50 years, I've never had an issue with adverse reactions to annual vacs, but did have a dog come down with distemper after a skipped year. We live rural and have lots of coons, possums, coyotes, strays, and other nasties, and given an uptick in parvo and distemper in thiis area, I won't gamble.

We don't vaccinate for Lyme because it isn't a problem here yet. In fact until this year we never saw more than a tick per year, and sometimes not even that.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:36 pm

shags wrote:Wow, CJ. Who could blame you for looking for a new vet after those experiences? That's a terrible way to treat a client.

I think I'll bake a batch of cookies for my vets. They've been great, not cheap by any means, but I have their cell phone number for after hours stuff, and they help with questions via email.

I hope you are able to find someone who does good by you and the dogs. Best wishes!

Just one more thought.
Just so you understand I am not complaining about my vet in particular. They have been extremely helpful when my bitch retained a puppy for a couple days and no doubt save her life by treating the infection.many other issues which have came up over the years. I do agree that they need to make a profit to survive. If I want them there when I need them I need to support them. I had a dog orthodontist quote me a price of $1400 to pull the lower deciduous canines on a ten week old puppy.That was more support than I could afford
I also have their after hours phone number.
But I am getting more convinced that you and I both are paying for a lot of examinations ,test and vaccinations that are unnecessary and perhaps even harmful because we want to do what is best for our dogs. But it may be what is best for their bottom line. If you are alright with that, fine. But I have had very few dogs get sick over the years. Generally UTI or stomach infection In lactating females that ate to much puppy poop and dog food.
I would like a better way. Which is why I asked about Titers. I do not think the vet is the person to ask because it would take a huge bite out of their income.
If you do your own shots your buyer' s vet treats the puppy like he has had no shots.
So he gets another round of shots he does not need.
Thanks for everybodies interesting comments. ....Cj
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Re: titers

Postby dog dr » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:49 pm

Cj, for a retired building contractor you seem to know a lot about what vets are taught in school and how they treat animals unnecessarily... I think your painting with too broad a brush.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:23 pm

,
dog dr wrote:Cj, for a retired building contractor you seem to know a lot about what vets are taught in school and how they treat animals unnecessarily... I think your painting with too broad a brush.

I really had hoped a few of the vets on here would weigh in with some information that was sensible. I think most everybody agrees that Shots every year are not necessary and there is at least a possibility they may be dangerous for some dogs.
The purpose of my Post was to get information on titers. One would think the logical person to get some information about titers from would be a vet. But obviously not.
Can you honestly tell me you did not have classes on how to run a successful veterinary clinic at the school you attended(my vet did) and that vaccinations are not a huge part of your income? (my vet admits they are for her) Can you tell me why it is necessary to give a dog, that has been on heart worm medication for every mosquito season of it's life, a blood test before giving it heart worm medication. My vet has never seen a dog on heart worm medication test positive........Cj
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Re: titers

Postby ezzy333 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:29 am

I have had two dogs test positive for heart worm back when I tested them. the rest of your comments really do not warrant a response as they have no or little bearing on the subject
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Re: titers

Postby dog dr » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:25 am

cjhills wrote:,
dog dr wrote:Cj, for a retired building contractor you seem to know a lot about what vets are taught in school and how they treat animals unnecessarily... I think your painting with too broad a brush.

I really had hoped a few of the vets on here would weigh in with some information that was sensible. I think most everybody agrees that Shots every year are not necessary and there is at least a possibility they may be dangerous for some dogs.
The purpose of my Post was to get information on titers. One would think the logical person to get some information about titers from would be a vet. But obviously not.
Can you honestly tell me you did not have classes on how to run a successful veterinary clinic at the school you attended(my vet did) and that vaccinations are not a huge part of your income? (my vet admits they are for her) Can you tell me why it is necessary to give a dog, that has been on heart worm medication for every mosquito season of it's life, a blood test before giving it heart worm medication. My vet has never seen a dog on heart worm medication test positive........Cj


You can get information on titers with a quick google search, but part of what its gonna tell you is something you already refuse to believe, and that is that high titers dont mean immunity. Sometimes it means infection or recent exposure. If my clients want to check titers, I can definitely do that for them and will be more than happy to. Costs on it have come down in recent years, but Im pretty confident what I charge for vaccinations is still cheaper. I offer my clients the option of a 1 yr vaccine or a 3 yr vaccine, and if they ask about the difference I answer their questions. If they ask if their dog really needs shots every year, I tell them probably not, but the state of illinois requires by law a rabies vaccine every 3 years or annually. I also tell them that without a titer, we dont have any idea how well or poorly their dogs immune system responded to any of the vaccines its ever had in its life. If you want to make sure your getting reliable information, look for anything from Dr. Richard Ford - he is one smart dude.

Yes, I can honestly tell you that I did not have any classes in vet school that dealt with the business side of veterinary medicine. Of course vaccinations are a good part of my income, but im pretty sure its 25% or less. I could be wrong, I dont really pay attention to that stuff. But that doesnt mean Im gouging people for money by pushing unnecessary shots.

I do NOT require a heartworm test before selling heartworm prevention. If you wanna buy heartworm prevention without a test, I am more than happy to sell it to you. I recommend it, just so we know what a dogs heartworm status is, but if the dogs been on prevention its whole life then yeah, chances are its gonna be negative. If we find a positive dog the first thing that we are gonna do is put it on a preventative anyway. However, the latest info on heartworm disease is that a negative test does not mean what we used to think it did. And I have seen dogs on heartworm prevention test positive.

I get where you are coming from, but just dont be so quick to throw a whole group of people under the bus as money hungry quacks selling you snake oil. Especially when it involves a subject you have little information to base your argument on.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:20 pm

Dog Dr.
Why do you say I am not going to believe what the information I get. I do not know about titers that is why I asked. I clearly stated I was looking for a better way and thought it might be titer testing.
I also tried to be clear about the fact that I am not "throwing my vets under the bus". I know they need profit to survive. I am not looking for a cheaper way. IF I was, I would give my own shots. $28 puppy shots would cost about $3.00. In Mn. you need a prescription, but not in Wisc. which is a short drive. I am looking for a better way. At least in Minnesota Rabies needs to be done by a vet. However, my vet tells me it is the same shot for 1 2 or 3 years.
If what you say about heartworm blood tests is true, why do the test.
I really hoped we could have a interesting discussion. Thanks for your last post at least it was somewhat informative.
Ezzy's post is more about insulting me than being informative and if he only gives puppy shots, he likely know less than I do about titers.
Evidentally, Timewise's vet disagrees with you.
As with most dog issues there is a lot we do not know. I always try to learn...CJ
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Re: titers

Postby dog dr » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:02 pm

cjhills wrote:Dog Dr.
Why do you say I am not going to believe what the information I get. I do not know about titers that is why I asked. I clearly stated I was looking for a better way and thought it might be titer testing.
I also tried to be clear about the fact that I am not "throwing my vets under the bus". I know they need profit to survive. I am not looking for a cheaper way. IF I was, I would give my own shots. $28 puppy shots would cost about $3.00. In Mn. you need a prescription, but not in Wisc. which is a short drive. I am looking for a better way. At least in Minnesota Rabies needs to be done by a vet. However, my vet tells me it is the same shot for 1 2 or 3 years.
If what you say about heartworm blood tests is true, why do the test.
I really hoped we could have a interesting discussion. Thanks for your last post at least it was somewhat informative.
Ezzy's post is more about insulting me than being informative and if he only gives puppy shots, he likely know less than I do about titers.
Evidentally, Timewise's vet disagrees with you.
As with most dog issues there is a lot we do not know. I always try to learn...CJ


CJ, I owe you an apology! I attributed something that timewise had said, to you... I'm sorry. That is why I said you wouldn't believe the information.
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Re: titers

Postby cjhills » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:19 pm

Thanks..................Cj
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