Raw Feeding
Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 am
When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?
Hunting Dog Training, Gun Dog Puppies, and Discussion
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Not really, it is just another option. Worse part is none of us are equipped to do it properly. WE have no way to measure the content of the ingredients we buy, we have no way to mix the ingredients, most of us do not even know what we need to feed a dog. And I doubt if many have any idea of how many different ingredients such as the different vitamins and minerals we need to add and finally how to store it. These are just some of the things we take for granted when we buy a commercial feed. We can raw feed but you will spend more money and get poorer results than we get feeding the time tested feed off of the shelf.MonsterDad wrote:When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?
Just feeling it out to see if there are any new supporters/converts?MonsterDad wrote:When all is said and done, isn't this the best option if you can handle it?
Right on!ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.
Ezzy
My dogs love old fallen apples. And the peelings are really good for them as per a study I read from the Netherlands.slistoe wrote:Well, I had an experience last night I think may be germane to this discussion. I have a bait pile out for coyotes. Last night I shot a coyote over the pile. The bait consists of a road killed deer, the offal of a butchered beef and about 100 lbs of apples gathered from the tree last fall and kept for baiting. With free choice of these items in the pile, the shot coyote had a mouthful of apples.
Stupid Carnivore :roll:
Lol .slistoe wrote:Well, I had an experience last night I think may be germane to this discussion. I have a bait pile out for coyotes. Last night I shot a coyote over the pile. The bait consists of a road killed deer, the offal of a butchered beef and about 100 lbs of apples gathered from the tree last fall and kept for baiting. With free choice of these items in the pile, the shot coyote had a mouthful of apples.
Stupid Carnivore :roll:
That is the conventional wisdom, but what to make of this where the rear hams are picked clean and the offal is still there.polmaise wrote: Of course a Caveat to that is ,when carnivores kill another mammal they always eat the offal before the meat ..Easier and quicker to digest , must be tastier too?.
Messing with you a little. No coyote has been on that deer - the one that has come recently died while eating his dessert . But cats are much closer to true carnivores than dogs are - and the 3 yard cats have been feeding on the deer carcass - they won't eat the apples and don't seem to prefer the offal. The bare patch of skin you see just above the open cavity is the result of the prior coyote who came to the bait - that was when the deer was still whole and the apples weren't there. She was trying to open the gut cavity (unfortunately for her she didn't get to finish). So, the deer had open meat exposed at the butt by the magpies and yard cats, yet the coyote was ripping the hair off and trying to open the hide to get at the gut cavity.polmaise wrote:Only a fox/Cayote ,what do we know ? :roll:
lol..Personally I wish there was a lot more 'Banter/messing' with members on here,it would lighten it up as long as they have thick skin .slistoe wrote:Messing with you a little. No coyote has been on that deer - the one that has come recently died while eating his dessert . But cats are much closer to true carnivores than dogs are - and the 3 yard cats have been feeding on the deer carcass - they won't eat the apples and don't seem to prefer the offal. The bare patch of skin you see just above the open cavity is the result of the prior coyote who came to the bait - that was when the deer was still whole and the apples weren't there. She was trying to open the gut cavity (unfortunately for her she didn't get to finish). So, the deer had open meat exposed at the butt by the magpies and yard cats, yet the coyote was ripping the hair off and trying to open the hide to get at the gut cavity.polmaise wrote:Only a fox/Cayote ,what do we know ? :roll:
Seems like most every coyote who comes by the place doesn't realize it is a carnivore.
Yeah, the bad thing is the big old Tom is pretty efficient at killing the Weasels. Found two dead ones on my front door stoop already this year. Good thing is he doesn't eat them so they are much easier to dispose of than when he leaves me "gifts" from the birds, mice and gophers he kills.polmaise wrote: lol..Personally I wish there was a lot more 'Banter/messing' with members on here,it would lighten it up as long as they have thick skin .
btw, A stoat or Weasel is far more carnivorous than your cat .. just saying . lol
atb
Robert
Grains and starches are necessary binders to produce kibble. All nutrition research performed by and for kibble manufacturers, start at that point. It's form factor and ingredient cost that drive the research and the product produced.ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.
Ezzy
Neither have I !..Neither have the millions of people who buy stuff for their dogs ,but they are hardly likely to say that what they are feeding their dogs which their dogs are fine with is actually 'bad' for their dogs. ?Urban_Redneck wrote:
I have no financial interest in what you feed your dogs.
.
Feed your dogs however you want but if you are raw feeding because of what you wrote you are doing it for the exercise. Grains are not needed to make kibble and every feed I had anything to do with, the physical quality of it was the last thing we worked on and not the first. I do recognize the big amounts of money spent but that always happens when the market become overly saturated with manufactures and product and the pet food industry is certainly that today. Your comment about the different feeds a company makes is failing to grasp the fact that a working dogs needs more energy than your lap dog so there has been and will be different feeds made for the different markets. A dog will live on either but will perform better with a feed that is tailored to it's needs while working.Urban_Redneck wrote:Grains and starches are necessary binders to produce kibble. All nutrition research performed by and for kibble manufacturers, start at that point. It's form factor and ingredient cost that drive the research and the product produced.ezzy333 wrote:Always amazes me how people are so willing to believe something from an unknown source with unknown knowledge and then disparage the companies and institutions that research and pay animal nutritionist that apparently know nothing about dogs or how and what to feed them. On top of this they don't seem to realize the proof that is surrounding us in actual day to day life, such as the dogs that are in competion as well as the dogs we hunt over that are actually working are almost exclusively fed kibble with the dreaded carbs because the dog need them to maintain weight when working.
Ezzy
Several companies do well with the shelf stable, form limitations of kibble. While it requires a big chemistry set to do so, I don't think anyone is killing their dog feeding ProPlan. Please recognize the 30 billion dollar pet food industry spends over 1 billion dollars on advertising 100's of brands- Example: Purina alone markets 15 lines and dozens of SKUs of "perfect for your pet" foods. Why spend $1.20/lb for ProPlan when Purina says Ol' Roy is "complete and balanced nutrition" for $0.40/lb? Are they lying about Ol' Roy or are you overpaying for ProPlan? If they are lying about Ol' Roy, can you believe what they say about ProPlan? Both pass the same 26 week AAFCO trial. I'm not picking on Purina in particular, all the big pet food companies present the same paradox.
I understand not everyone has the bandwidth to research, and discipline to feed a balanced raw diet. In spite of great bloodwork (to rule out pyo during a false pregnancy), my vet interrogated me for 10 minutes about what and how I fed my dog, before giving his blessing and sharing that he has raw fed his dogs and cats for over 20 years
Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olsen PhD. is a great book if you are interested.
I have no financial interest in what you feed your dogs. .
Dogs will also drink anti-freeze. Where does the spark plug go?Sharon wrote:and mine climb up to the outside bird seed table and mow down on that...
I'm a fan of ezzy's wry understated humor. And his knowledge and good sense.ezzy333 wrote:Sure it is.
As I explained a dozen times to my sweet, but, wacky neighbor, put only enough seed in the feeder for the day and the bears will move on. He didn't stop filling them until the bears spread a week's worth of trash in his yardSharon wrote:No worry . No antifreeze or poinsettias available for my dogs. Now if that racoon in the back yard doesn't move on soon ..............I don't need 2 bit up dogs for Christmas.
Ezzy as an veteran industry PhD expert, I've always been curious why the feed companies list protein and fat percentages on the front of the bag, but not these vital carbohydrates. Why is that? Likewise, if it's the carbohydrates that are so valuable to dog performance, why are "high performance" feeds higher in protein and fat than the regular formulas?ezzy333 wrote:Sure it is.
Steve007 wrote:Spy Car wrote:There is, in fact, no essential need for carbohydrates in a canine diet. Zero. All carbs do is cut costs and cut stamina.
Carbohydrate percentages are not included in labeling laws because this inclusion of non-essential starches and sugars is an embarrassment to the industry, and they don't want their shame in bold type.
I know several otherwise normal people who do this, and sometimes apparently get away with it. So I won't suggest that they are all nutty conspiracists. But when they get a PhD in canine nutrition, they'll be qualified to over-ride those on staff at the better dog food companies, Until then, they're wrong. Or nutty conspiracists.
This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..
From the USDAezzy333 wrote:The federal labeling laws are very specific about what you list, where it is listed, size of the print, etc. Carbs are not listed on any feed that I know of but protein, fats, fiber, some minerals, and some vitamins are. Carbs are included in the calorie count that is on the back of the bag as I remember and are not listed separately as there is no critical set amount needed. It is pretty much determined by size and activity of the animal.
FDA Regulation of Pet Food
There is no requirement that pet food products have pre-market approval by the FDA. However, FDA ensures that the ingredients used in pet food are safe and have an appropriate function in the pet food. Many ingredients such as meat, poultry and grains are considered safe and do not require pre-market approval. Other substances such as sources of minerals, vitamins or other nutrients, flavorings, preservatives, or processing aids may be generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for an intended use (21 CFR 582 and 584) or must have approval as food additives (21 CFR 570, 571 and 573). Colorings must have approvals for that use as specified in 21 CFR 70 and be listed in Parts 73, 74, or 81. For more information about pet foods and marketing a pet food, see FDA’s Regulation of Pet Food and Information on Marketing a Pet Food Product.
Labeling
Pet food labeling is regulated at two levels. The current FDA regulations require proper identification of the product, net quantity statement, name and place of business of the manufacturer or distributor, and proper listing of all the ingredients in the product in order from most to least, based on weight. Some states also enforce their own labeling regulations. Many of these regulations are based on a model provided by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). For more information about AAFCO,disclaimer icon please visit its website. For more information about labeling requirements, see Pet Food Labels - General.
FDA also reviews specific claims on pet food, such as “maintains urinary tract health,” “low magnesium,” and “hairball control.” Guidance for collecting data to make a urinary tract health claim is available in Guideline 55 on the CVM portion of the FDA internet site.
CVM DOES NOT recommend one product over another or offer guidance on individual pet health issues that are normally provided by the pet’s veterinarian. Questions regarding your pets' health and/or the specific use of any veterinary drug, pet food, or other product should always be referred to your veterinarian.
I have been around the edges of working/protection dogs for many years. A huge number feed raw, usually very little kibble with the primary food being chicken or turkey necks, and livers/gizzards. Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.Spy Car wrote:Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only).
That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's stamina. It has been clearly demonstrated in the literature (and real-life experience) that carb-burning supplies quick energy (blood glycogen), followed by a crash. Whereas fat delivers even and sustained energy.
The idea that one can't supply optimal nutrition feeding raw, or that it is somehow "difficult," is fallacious. Following a PRM diet 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10 organ (half of that liver) it is very easy to supply everything a dog requires, without any junk carbohydrates.
It is the optimal way to feed a hard-working bird-dog.
Bill
If you really want to save money you should make a deal with an egg producer for spent laying hens. With a #32 grinder and 1/2" plate you just feed them in it head first.jstevens wrote:Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.
Thank you for copying part of the regsIt is a major undertaking to follow all of them.Urban_Redneck wrote:From the USDAezzy333 wrote:The federal labeling laws are very specific about what you list, where it is listed, size of the print, etc. Carbs are not listed on any feed that I know of but protein, fats, fiber, some minerals, and some vitamins are. Carbs are included in the calorie count that is on the back of the bag as I remember and are not listed separately as there is no critical set amount needed. It is pretty much determined by size and activity of the animal.
FDA Regulation of Pet Food
There is no requirement that pet food products have pre-market approval by the FDA. However, FDA ensures that the ingredients used in pet food are safe and have an appropriate function in the pet food. Many ingredients such as meat, poultry and grains are considered safe and do not require pre-market approval. Other substances such as sources of minerals, vitamins or other nutrients, flavorings, preservatives, or processing aids may be generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for an intended use (21 CFR 582 and 584) or must have approval as food additives (21 CFR 570, 571 and 573). Colorings must have approvals for that use as specified in 21 CFR 70 and be listed in Parts 73, 74, or 81. For more information about pet foods and marketing a pet food, see FDA’s Regulation of Pet Food and Information on Marketing a Pet Food Product.
Labeling
Pet food labeling is regulated at two levels. The current FDA regulations require proper identification of the product, net quantity statement, name and place of business of the manufacturer or distributor, and proper listing of all the ingredients in the product in order from most to least, based on weight. Some states also enforce their own labeling regulations. Many of these regulations are based on a model provided by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). For more information about AAFCO,disclaimer icon please visit its website. For more information about labeling requirements, see Pet Food Labels - General.
FDA also reviews specific claims on pet food, such as “maintains urinary tract health,” “low magnesium,” and “hairball control.” Guidance for collecting data to make a urinary tract health claim is available in Guideline 55 on the CVM portion of the FDA internet site.
CVM DOES NOT recommend one product over another or offer guidance on individual pet health issues that are normally provided by the pet’s veterinarian. Questions regarding your pets' health and/or the specific use of any veterinary drug, pet food, or other product should always be referred to your veterinarian.
Don't think I would even compare a complete feed against just meat.jstevens wrote:I have been around the edges of working/protection dogs for many years. A huge number feed raw, usually very little kibble with the primary food being chicken or turkey necks, and livers/gizzards. Actually when decent dog food is $2 a pound, you can feed them whole fryers for less money, much less necks and gizzards, etc.Spy Car wrote:Dogs do much better metabolizing fat as their primary energy source than they do with burning nutritionally unnecessary carbohydrates. Dogs have zero nutritional requirements to consume carbohydrates. They are in dog foods to lower costs (only).
That lower cost comes at the price of reducing a dog's stamina. It has been clearly demonstrated in the literature (and real-life experience) that carb-burning supplies quick energy (blood glycogen), followed by a crash. Whereas fat delivers even and sustained energy.
The idea that one can't supply optimal nutrition feeding raw, or that it is somehow "difficult," is fallacious. Following a PRM diet 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10 organ (half of that liver) it is very easy to supply everything a dog requires, without any junk carbohydrates.
It is the optimal way to feed a hard-working bird-dog.
Bill
Well, I'm pretty sure that if one of field trial pros figured they could get a one-up on the competition in terms of better endurance by feeding raw, they would be doing it in a heartbeat. They (their clients) would certainly pay the extra cost if it meant winning more often - and finishing the hour strong is a pretty big part of winning.Sharon wrote:I feed Purina Sport because most trial champions eat that so it must be good food. Right?
It is an absurd contention that every bite full of food that a dog eats should be "uniform." And it makes even less sense when that food is loaded with cereals. Your praising of "consistency" makes no sense from a nutritional standpoint. It is not a positive. For the same reason, we don't raise kids on "People Chow."ezzy333 wrote:This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..
It's not something I ever thought about 2 years ago until my breeder brought it up. Many folks come over to raw when health issues affect their valued pets. If your dogs are healthy on kibble, that's cool. I hope nothing I've said has been taken as swipe against my fellow dog owners.Sharon wrote:I guess I'm just old, but all this food talk makes me wonder.
When my Dad and I bred beagles for around 20 years , 55-years ago starting, I remember one kind of dry Purina food available. When times were lean ,Dad picked up left overs from the construction site food truck weekly- hamburgers, sandwiches, salads , bread etc. Also fed left over turkey bits after slaughtering - we had a turkey farm.
Dogs had great energy , fine coats - no problems.
Hard to get me excited about dog food. I feed Purina Sport because most trial champions eat that so it must be good food. Right?
End of story.
Bill, read first, think second, maybe read again(in case you missed something) then report. I made no evaluation you might note, but just reported what the nutritionist and researchers have found and are reporting. Glad you brought up the People Chow, because it is well known if we did have that our kids would be as well fed as our animals and would be healthier. But then again, most aren't feeding their kids with the same goals in mind.Spy Car wrote:It is an absurd contention that every bite full of food that a dog eats should be "uniform." And it makes even less sense when that food is loaded with cereals. Your praising of "consistency" makes no sense from a nutritional standpoint. It is not a positive. For the same reason, we don't raise kids on "People Chow."ezzy333 wrote:This is not an unusual comment among the researchers as well. There is no way a raw diet can match the consistence of a kibble diet and it continues to be reported how important that is. Just another fact that is never mentioned by raw feeders'Steve007 wrote:No. Just took my dog to a well-known orthopedic surgeon for a post-TPLO evaluation. At 8 weeks after surgery, he is doing fine. Got an A+ on recovery so far. However,the orthopedic guy --after asking about diet -- mentioned that dogs fed "raw" recover much more slowly and have far more problems than dogs fed a high-quality commercial food..
You need to do better than this Ezzy.
Bill
Bill, read first, think second, maybe read again(in case you missed something) then report. I made no evaluation you might note, but just reported what the nutritionist and researchers have found and are reporting. Glad you brought up the People Chow, because it is well known if we did have that our kids would be as well fed as our animals and would be healthier. But then again, most aren't feeding their kids with the same goals in mind.ezzy333 wrote: Bill