Re: Raw Feeding
Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:29 pm
Why did I just get the idea that I should watch “Soylent Green” again?
Mike
Mike
Hunting Dog Training, Gun Dog Puppies, and Discussion
http://gundogforum.com/forum/
It's good to see a little humor around here!MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.
I will rephrase so you understand. The teeth of raw fed stay much cleaner.....Steve007 wrote:It's good to see a little humor around here!MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.
I second that! We see it in the office all the time. It's the sugars (carbs) that turn to the plaque and tartar.MonsterDad wrote:I will rephrase so you understand. The teeth of raw fed stay much cleaner.....Steve007 wrote:It's good to see a little humor around here!MonsterDad wrote:Raw fed dogs have much better teeth, which defrays the cost of feeding raw and also removes the risk of illnesses associated with infected gums.
This is a fact. No carbs means no plaque and tartar. Carbs in the mouth are required for the formation of plaque and tartar. Also, raw dogs tend to get things like chicken necks and backs which scrub the teeth and gums.
I’ve fed a complete raw diet for dogs in competition but anyone out of competition got kibble just because it was a pain todo it for a number of dogs. The dogs look great on it and it gives more control. I can get a dog emptied out faster on a raw diet and there’s no wasted energy as far as digestion. That said dogs look good on kibble that work for them too. Food isn’t going to change a dud into a wonder dog and most don’t work hard enough to see a real difference.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
Exactly what we have been trying to teach for years after seeing the results in the feed test and research.Fozzie's Mom wrote:Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
Fozzie's Mom wrote:Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
I think I have asked before, but am still waiting for a raw feeder to tell us what the guarantees are on the feed you feed your dog daily. Never have seen the answer. No one is arguing that raw feeding is bad, it is just the inability of the individual to weight or measure how much of the different nutrients the feed contains or that the dog get daily. I doubt if any of us, including you and me would buy a dog food that didn't have a uniform mix and didn't have a label that showed exactly what the dog was getting each and everyday. Fill us in as to what you feed and how do you check it?Urban_Redneck wrote:Fozzie's Mom wrote:Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
Humans that safely operate dangerous machinery, perform high cognitive operations, feed themselves and other humans, are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet?
Congratulations! You have achieved cartoon status
So what percent protein, fat, and fiber are you feeding?Urban_Redneck wrote:Once again, you put forward that it takes a lab coat to feed a dog. Here's a lab coat Raw and Natural Nutrition for Dogs by Lew Olson PhD. Many including my former vet (retired) have been raw feeding for decades.
By rotating the source animal meat, bone, liver, organ, balance is easily achieved. I do supplement with kelp and fish oil when I run out of oily fish. Most of the nutrients sprayed on kibble are to make up for those lost in processing meats or absent altogether in plant matter.
As always, it's not for everyone. Read the book it's $15 on Amazon
There are about 107,000 employed vets in the US. Plus your former one. It is self-evident that some percentage of them are crackpots or conspiracists. And the little babe to whom you refer named Lew Olson has her PhD. in "natural nutrition". That would be what? And from where?Urban_Redneck wrote:Many including my former vet (retired) have been raw feeding for decades.
I don't exactly know. I feed actual meat, god handles balance of digestable protein and fat. The only time I add/subtract fat is when we are hunting 4+ days in a week or I score a ton of 73/27 ground beef on sale. That said, since beef and pork are roughly 25% protein, chicken and venison slightly higher, and oily fish slightly lower, in kibble terms I'm at about 25/19.ezzy333 wrote: So what percent protein, fat, and fiber are you feeding?
Just call me Betty Boop!Urban_Redneck wrote:Fozzie's Mom wrote:Agreed. I worked with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist. She (and others) maintains that a properly-balanced homemade diet is optimal, but most people aren't able to balance it out. An improperly balanced homemade diet is the absolute worst you could do for your dog. . . .that puts it as worse than Alpo.ezzy333 wrote:A raw diet can be good but none of us are equipped to do it right, If I asked you what the protein level on your feed is you would tell me what? And the same with every other guarantee that is required on every sack of feed you buy. How many people would buy a feed with a guarantee that says X% or some where near that but that is exactly what every raw feeder does? And I do not of any that makes any effort to insure the correct levels of vitamins or minerals.
Humans that safely operate dangerous machinery, perform high cognitive operations, feed themselves and other humans, are incapable of feeding a dog a balanced diet?
Congratulations! You have achieved cartoon status
I don't often laugh at my computer screen, butUrban_Redneck wrote:0 and that her body isn't struggling to digest grains and starches.
This is just crazy talk Ezzy. All the nutritional analyses (bone percentages, fat, protein, vitamins, etc) are easily referenced on the USDA website. Your assertions are completely nonsensical.ezzy333 wrote:I think I have asked before, but am still waiting for a raw feeder to tell us what the guarantees are on the feed you feed your dog daily. Never have seen the answer. No one is arguing that raw feeding is bad, it is just the inability of the individual to weight or measure how much of the different nutrients the feed contains or that the dog get daily. I doubt if any of us, including you and me would buy a dog food that didn't have a uniform mix and didn't have a label that showed exactly what the dog was getting each and everyday. Fill us in as to what you feed and how do you check it?
Ezzy
Where is the proof of that in upland hunting dogs or retrievers? Have you had your dog in competition on the Canadian Prairies in front of a horse for an hour? Does he finish strong to the front leaving dust as he goes?Spy Car wrote: The stamina is better,
Bill
Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.Spy Car wrote:ezzy333 wrote: Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill
For a period of time I was fur farming. At the time my dogs were fed "raw". They got the same feed as the mink and ferrets (although mink are miles closer to a true carnivore than any canine species will ever be, the optimum feed for growth, fertility, coat production etc for these animals contained some grain). I can assure you that there are kibble diets producing less stool than when on "raw". And there are kibble diets that can produce stool by the shovelful ( had a year old bull mastiff in to board for a month one time. The owner brought about four 50lb bags of feed store feed. I literally had to get the grain scoop to clean out his kennel in the morning.)Spy Car wrote: the stool is much less with raw feeding.
Bill
A way back in time there was a promo bit about the founding of Eukanuba feeds. As the story went the fellow had visited a mink farm and while there had noticed the quality of the coat on the dogs around the farm. Upon inquiring he found they were eating the mink feed. So he set out to develop a kibble and Eukanuba was born.Spy Car wrote:the coats are better,
Bill
Lastly, I am surprised that in your list of accolades you didn't throw in longevity.Spy Car wrote: Some people are just stubbornly behind the times in believing a processed cereal-based diet is optimal for dogs. It ain't.
Bill
If you don't believe that the nutritional analysis of meat, organ, and poultry parts (including vitamins, minerals, protein, fat, and carbohydrate percentages) isn't easily available online, then your education--such as it is--hasn't served you very well.ezzy333 wrote:Thank you Bill. Now we know and I can throw away all of the text books I had to buy for college courses. I have often wondered where they got their ideas that were so far off base and how the dogs that were used for research gave us the wrong Info.
Ezzy
You are flat out wrong, and the differences in condition and stamina are obvious and not at all subtle. Numerous studies have demonstrated that carbohydrates undermine performance (studies paid for, incidentally, mostly by large pet food companies). The same is seen by mushers, greyhound racers, and those hunters not wedded to ignorance of basic nutritional science.slistoe wrote: Lastly, I am surprised that in your list of accolades you didn't throw in longevity.
It matters very little to me what you want to feed your dog. I have nothing against feeding a "raw" diet should a person wish to research and formulate such properly - done properly it will not harm your dog. But you are out to lunch with the wild claims of superiority you spout - find some basis that there are actually real world differences and someone might listen to you other than those who are prone to conspirasist theories.
How about posting a photo of your current dog's teeth (and noting the age)?slistoe wrote:Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.Spy Car wrote:ezzy333 wrote: Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill
Sled dogs in Canada don't simply need to run ahead of a horse for an hour but when racing need to pull sleds for very long hours for days on end.slistoe wrote: Where is the proof of that in upland hunting dogs or retrievers? Have you had your dog in competition on the Canadian Prairies in front of a horse for an hour? Does he finish strong to the front leaving dust as he goes?
If raw feeding would assure greater stamina the pros who are trying to win events where stamina is a premium would be sure to using it - pretty much a guarantee that the owners would pay the pros time and cost for the edge on winning.
What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth.Spy Car wrote:How about posting a photo of your current dog's teeth (and noting the age)?slistoe wrote:Another bit of goofiness - 37 years of owning dogs - as many as 15 at a time. I have never paid a vet bill for dogs teeth. I do know of one dog that had issues with tooth and gum disease - developed when he was 18 years old so they pulled two of his molars and his owner just buried him this year on my place at 20 years of age.Spy Car wrote:Most kibble-fed dogs have teeth that look like heck vs the clean white teeth of raw fed dogs.
Bill
Not paying for vet bills isn't necessarily evidence of clean teeth any more than those who claim to avoid seeing dentists is among humans.
Bill
The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.slistoe wrote: What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth.
You have anecdotal evidence of this?Spy Car wrote:The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.slistoe wrote: What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth.
Teeth crusted and stained with plaque and tarter DOES negatively affect performance in the field.
Bill
That, right there is an amazing claim. How would you prove it? I really thought you had a point. But that changed my mind...........................CjSpy Car wrote:The point is that dogs with clean teeth have a keener sense of smell, which makes them better hunters. Simple.slistoe wrote: What would be the point of the picture? Having white teeth is a sign off.....????? Never having to pay a vet bill for my dogs teeth is significant to your point - I have never had a dog with an issue with it's teeth even at 17 years of age. If my dogs teeth are a bit yellow it isn't affecting them in any way - never seen a stud dog refuse to service a bitch with yellow on her teeth.
Teeth crusted and stained with plaque and tarter DOES negatively affect performance in the field.
Bill
How behind the times are you people?cjhills wrote: That, right there is an amazing claim. How would you prove it? I really thought you had a point. But that changed my mind...........................Cj
Note Ezzy, the vet in the article mentioned about 80% of dogs over 6 years old have periodontal disease.ezzy333 wrote:Th4e article clearly is about periodontal disease and not just plack or stain on the teeth. I as well as Slistoe have explained quiteclearly that we have never had a dog suffer from that and I am sure many others have had the same experience. Searching for excuses is a normal thing to do when you have an agenda but we have kind of drawn a line that that says do it with out getting personal, a line you often step over and it needs to stop.
Ezzy