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Neuter

Neuter

Postby TurkeyDog » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:29 pm

I recently read an article in Gun Dog magazine about neutering dogs. It basically said that many veterinary studies indicate that it is beneficial for sporting dogs to delay neutering/spaying. My vet mentioned the same thing during my 10 week puppy check up. Just wondering what you guys think about this. If it's more beneficial from a scientific standpoint, id rather wait on my dog to fully mature than neuter him at 6 months or when he lifts his leg to pee.
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Re: Neuter

Postby cjhills » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:47 pm

TurkeyDog wrote:I recently read an article in Gun Dog magazine about neutering dogs. It basically said that many veterinary studies indicate that it is beneficial for sporting dogs to delay neutering/spaying. My vet mentioned the same thing during my 10 week puppy check up. Just wondering what you guys think about this. If it's more beneficial from a scientific standpoint, id rather wait on my dog to fully mature than neuter him at 6 months or when he lifts his leg to pee.

There are differing opinions on this. Don't seem to be any reason to neuter a male dog early and it can cause growth issues. we generally go 18 months. But don't count on it stopping him from lifting his leg. That is a training issue. Neutered dogs can do anything any male dog can do except make babies...........Cj
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Re: Neuter

Postby shags » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:42 am

I don't even think about neutering my dogs.

Why do it?

Neutering might reduce the chances of some medical problems, but it also increases the risk for others.

Behavioral problems are a matter of training, and not solved by surgery.

Unwanted litters are not an issue because my dogs do not run at large.

If I had an intact dog that developed a health problem that was related to being intact, and could be helped by neutering, then no question, I'd have it done. But neutering isn't the cure all, be all , end all for otherwise healthy dogs IMO.
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Re: Neuter

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:50 am

In the contract on the GSP we just picked up (14 weeks now), the “warranty” is voided if we get him neutered before 16 months. I never asked why, but I can speculate that there are certain health benefits to waiting, AND so that a hasty decision to remove him from the gene pool isn’t made. As of right now, I have no desire to have him studded out, but if you were to ask him...HA!! :D
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Re: Neuter

Postby Gordon Guy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:50 am

Yeah...What Shags said

If you do it... wait until pup is 2 yrs old.
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Re: Neuter

Postby ezzy333 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:11 am

Gordon Guy wrote:Yeah...What Shags said

If you do it... wait until pup is 2 yrs old.


This old at least and then be sure to ask your self why you need to do this. Is the dog going to be better off or is it just a convenience for you?

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Re: Neuter

Postby isonychia » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:13 pm

Imagine what would happen if you cut a human's testicles off at the age of 14.

OK so dog years aren't an exact science, but they do say to wait 2 years, anyone who snips at 6 months has swallowed the wrong colored pill. This is especially true if the dog is a female and has not had its first heat cycle yet.
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Re: Neuter

Postby Sask hunter » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:01 pm

Personally I am going to delay or not neuter my male pup. I figured god gave all creatures nuts for more reasons then making more babies.
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Re: Neuter

Postby cjhills » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:22 pm

isonychia wrote:Imagine what would happen if you cut a human's testicles off at the age of 14.

OK so dog years aren't an exact science, but they do say to wait 2 years, anyone who snips at 6 months has swallowed the wrong colored pill. This is especially true if the dog is a female and has not had its first heat cycle yet.

Who are they that say wait two years?
So are you advocating waiting until a female has had her first period? Did say you are a vet tech?
I have no idea what would happen if you cut off a humans testicles at14. In some cases it might be a wise choice ,but I am pretty sure you would got to jail. millions of dogs have been spayed and neutered at 6 months with no adverse issues. Spaying before the first period virtually eliminates mammary cancer in female dogs.
For male that are going to be neutered we recommend 18 months......Cj
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Re: Neuter

Postby ezzy333 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:12 pm

Not till physical and mental maturity And then only if you can find a medical reason and not one of convenience
.
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Re: Neuter

Postby isonychia » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:40 pm

cjhills wrote:
isonychia wrote:Imagine what would happen if you cut a human's testicles off at the age of 14.

OK so dog years aren't an exact science, but they do say to wait 2 years, anyone who snips at 6 months has swallowed the wrong colored pill. This is especially true if the dog is a female and has not had its first heat cycle yet.

Who are they that say wait two years?
So are you advocating waiting until a female has had her first period? Did say you are a vet tech?
I have no idea what would happen if you cut off a humans testicles at14. In some cases it might be a wise choice ,but I am pretty sure you would got to jail. millions of dogs have been spayed and neutered at 6 months with no adverse issues. Spaying before the first period virtually eliminates mammary cancer in female dogs.
For male that are going to be neutered we recommend 18 months......Cj

I respect your view on this but as someone who regularly has to read through peer review papers I find that the evidence of one correlating variable (mammary cancer in a study consisting of golden retrievers) in one prominent peer review is not enough to tell me that evolution messed up. I would be willing to change my point of view and expressed OPINION on this if you could provide peer reviewed evidence that looks specifically at every other disease or physiological and cognitive developmental issue in dogs based on spay or nueter time. This is not a facetious comment, data and statistical approaches may be getting there. If it ain't broke don't fix it is my motto. I like a docked dog but that is personal, however my persuasion on dew claws is changing as a growing body of evidence supports leaving them on. I am maliable. Give me something to work with that says spaying before first heat is not bad that looks at it from a perspective other than mammary cancer. Quality of life is also a factor. PS, in case you are wondering if I am a crazy anti vaxer, I vaccinate my dogs annually.
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Re: Neuter

Postby Grange » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:46 pm

I've had females spayed before their first heat cycle and have not had any issues. On the other hand I know and have had females that were spayed after multiple heat cycles and they were or are not the same dog as before the surgery. From their coat to behavior issues to weight issues I would rather spay a female earlier than later.
Last edited by Grange on Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neuter

Postby cjhills » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:07 am

isonychia wrote:
cjhills wrote:
isonychia wrote:Imagine what would happen if you cut a human's testicles off at the age of 14.

OK so dog years aren't an exact science, but they do say to wait 2 years, anyone who snips at 6 months has swallowed the wrong colored pill. This is especially true if the dog is a female and has not had its first heat cycle yet.

Who are they that say wait two years?
So are you advocating waiting until a female has had her first period? Did say you are a vet tech?
I have no idea what would happen if you cut off a humans testicles at14. In some cases it might be a wise choice ,but I am pretty sure you would got to jail. millions of dogs have been spayed and neutered at 6 months with no adverse issues. Spaying before the first period virtually eliminates mammary cancer in female dogs.
For male that are going to be neutered we recommend 18 months......Cj

I respect your view on this but as someone who regularly has to read through peer review papers I find that the evidence of one correlating variable (mammary cancer in a study consisting of golden retrievers) in one prominent peer review is not enough to tell me that evolution messed up. I would be willing to change my point of view and expressed OPINION on this if you could provide peer reviewed evidence that looks specifically at every other disease or physiological and cognitive developmental issue in dogs based on spay or nueter time. This is not a facetious comment, data and statistical approaches may be getting there. If it ain't broke don't fix it is my motto. I like a docked dog but that is personal, however my persuasion on dew claws is changing as a growing body of evidence supports leaving them on. I am maliable. Give me something to work with that says spaying before first heat is not bad that looks at it from a perspective other than mammary cancer. Quality of life is also a factor. PS, in case you are wondering if I am a crazy anti vaxer, I vaccinate my dogs annually.

I can give you one other factor really quick. Can you say PYOMETRA. Actually two, False pregnancies. It has been my experience that females which have multiple false pregnancies all eventually die from mammary Cancer. For this reason we always spay our retired breeding bitches. Also unwanted pregnancies.
There is no reliable research for or against neutering. The UC Davis research on Goldens has a very small number of dogs in each category and is obviously aimed at proving neutering is a bad thing.
What is quality of life in a dog? Is taking away the desire to breed lowering the females quality of life. Neutered males can still get a tie. So there is that.
The one undeniable fact is that there are millions of dogs, both male and female who live long, happy, sexless lives and do everything that an intact dog does except having puppies.
If you are not planning on breeding it is in the females best interest to neuter before her first heat which in our dogs occurs at 14 to 16 months. because of the growth issues in males we advise our clients to wait until eighteen months. Most vets still like to do it earlier.
I am also convinced that we over vaccinate especially on dogs who stay home and have went to two years on vacs and three on rabies.
This is, of course all my opinion. There is no right answer....................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Neuter

Postby fourtrax » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:27 am

Neutering a male dog under age 18 mos. to two years is foolishness. The dog isn't done growing till somewhere in that time period. Bones are not mature till around that age.
This kennel will never neuter another male dog unless for a medical necessity (testicular cancer - prostate issues etc). I had one neutered way back when he was 18 mos. old.
Six weeks after neutering he developed slight urinary incontinence. It was diagnosed as urinary incontinence due to LACK OF testosterone. Male hormone (lack of) induced incontinence
is rare. However, only reason I had him neutered was the old wives tale of behavior modification. Once you deal with an incontinence problem it's not a rarity to us anymore. The dog is 14 now
and has had to have a shot of testosterone monthly for 12 1/2 years now. The shot cures (temporarily) the incontinence & costs about a hundred $ per bottle every 6 mos.
BEhavior issues are not fixed by neutering, training yes. No more neutering here due to a Vet drumming up business OR making well intentioned recommendations.
Detailed studies have been done on so called benefits of neutering. The "benefits" are largely proved to be old wives tales.

No more neutering here on a whim.
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Re: Neuter

Postby JJWISE » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:17 pm

My last dog was not a hunting dog, but the no-kill-shelter he came from required him to be neutered before one year of age, I wanna say he was about 7 months when he got it done. He had multiple health issues and died at the age of 7. I can’t say for sure, but after reading some things recently it wouldn’t surprise me if that had been a contributer. My current dog is a hunting Boykin Spaniel and is also neutered. The vet said he’s never seen an issue come from having a dog “fixed” after it’s fully developed. He got snipped a few weeks ago.
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Re: Neuter

Postby isonychia » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:59 am

cjhills wrote: I can give you one other factor really quick. Can you say PYOMETRA. Actually two, False pregnancies. It has been my experience that females which have multiple false pregnancies all eventually die from mammary Cancer. For this reason we always spay our retired breeding bitches. Also unwanted pregnancies.
There is no reliable research for or against neutering. The UC Davis research on Goldens has a very small number of dogs in each category and is obviously aimed at proving neutering is a bad thing.
What is quality of life in a dog? Is taking away the desire to breed lowering the females quality of life. Neutered males can still get a tie. So there is that.
The one undeniable fact is that there are millions of dogs, both male and female who live long, happy, sexless lives and do everything that an intact dog does except having puppies.
If you are not planning on breeding it is in the females best interest to neuter before her first heat which in our dogs occurs at 14 to 16 months. because of the growth issues in males we advise our clients to wait until eighteen months. Most vets still like to do it earlier.
I am also convinced that we over vaccinate especially on dogs who stay home and have went to two years on vacs and three on rabies.
This is, of course all my opinion. There is no right answer....................Cj


This is good info. What about females that get their first heat closer to the 6 month range than 14-16 (What kind of dogs are you referring to at 14-16?)
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Re: Neuter

Postby Steve007 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:31 am

ezzy333 wrote:Not till physical and mental maturity And then only if you can find a medical reason and not one of convenience
.



I'm with you. But what would "convenience" be in a male?

I spay bitches (as adults) when their breeding career is over, which may be as older or younger adults. Ity does soften their coats (in wirehairs) and they may leak a little as older dogs,which is easily. But males? I see no reason in the world to neuter a male, barring serious medical issues (which have never happened) and lots of reasons not to. What "convenience" is there to de-groining an adult male?
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Re: Neuter

Postby ezzy333 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:16 pm

Steve007 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Not till physical and mental maturity And then only if you can find a medical reason and not one of convenience
.



I'm with you. But what would "convenience" be in a male?

I spay bitches (as adults) when their breeding career is over, which may be as older or younger adults. Ity does soften their coats (in wirehairs) and they may leak a little as older dogs,which is easily. But males? I see no reason in the world to neuter a male, barring serious medical issues (which have never happened) and lots of reasons not to. What "convenience" is there to de-groining an adult male?

Agree. I meant for the owners convenience, not the dogs.
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Re: Neuter

Postby cjhills » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:25 am

isonychia wrote:
cjhills wrote: I can give you one other factor really quick. Can you say PYOMETRA. Actually two, False pregnancies. It has been my experience that females which have multiple false pregnancies all eventually die from mammary Cancer. For this reason we always spay our retired breeding bitches. Also unwanted pregnancies.
There is no reliable research for or against neutering. The UC Davis research on Goldens has a very small number of dogs in each category and is obviously aimed at proving neutering is a bad thing.
What is quality of life in a dog? Is taking away the desire to breed lowering the females quality of life. Neutered males can still get a tie. So there is that.
The one undeniable fact is that there are millions of dogs, both male and female who live long, happy, sexless lives and do everything that an intact dog does except having puppies.
If you are not planning on breeding it is in the females best interest to neuter before her first heat which in our dogs occurs at 14 to 16 months. because of the growth issues in males we advise our clients to wait until eighteen months. Most vets still like to do it earlier.
I am also convinced that we over vaccinate especially on dogs who stay home and have went to two years on vacs and three on rabies.
This is, of course all my opinion. There is no right answer....................Cj


This is good info. What about females that get their first heat closer to the 6 month range than 14-16 (What kind of dogs are you referring to at 14-16?)


It is not necessarily good or bad information. No basis for fact. Just my experience with my dogs. I do think most vets still recommend neutering at 6 months. why is that?
My dogs are GSPs. I never had to deal with bitches that come in heat at six months. I think if they consistently did that I would still try to neuter before the first heat. I assume they would be small dogs that mature earlier................Cj
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Re: Neuter

Postby DennisCanfield » Tue May 15, 2018 5:08 am

TurkeyDog wrote:My vet mentioned the same thing during my 10 week puppy check up. Just wondering what you guys think about this. If it's more beneficial from a scientific standpoint, id rather wait on my dog to fully mature than neuter him at 6 months or when he lifts his leg to pee.


My vet advice when pups and kittens are less than 24 weeks, it's good to take your pups/kittens for a medical exam so if there is any risk of their health problem it can be encountered early. It helps prevent deadly diseases so your beloved pets can live longer.
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Re: Neuter

Postby Steve007 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:12 am

See copy of post below regarding TPLO (CCL surgery). Note observations in the verbal or printed article at link directly addressing this subject. Anyone who thinks there aren't BIG negatives to neutering male dogs -- especially working dogs -- early just hasn't been paying attention.

I am attaching a link to an interview that was done recently by Pure Dog Talk. These people interview a wide variety of major knowledgeable and interesting people in the sport of Purebred dogs. These vary from field trials to conformation to obedience to breeding to health and others. In this instance, it is Veterinary Voice and the subject is How to Avoid (and Deal with) Expensive, Painful Cruciate Ligament Rupture. It is a podcast (verbal), but there's a verbatim transcription at the link. Extraordinarily interesting for anyone, and it does wholly validate Ezzy's contention regarding early neutering. Highly recommended reading. Or listening.

https://puredogtalk.com/veterinary-voic ... ligaments/

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Re: Neuter

Postby ezzy333 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 am

DennisCanfield wrote:
TurkeyDog wrote:My vet mentioned the same thing during my 10 week puppy check up. Just wondering what you guys think about this. If it's more beneficial from a scientific standpoint, id rather wait on my dog to fully mature than neuter him at 6 months or when he lifts his leg to pee.


My vet advice when pups and kittens are less than 24 weeks, it's good to take your pups/kittens for a medical exam so if there is any risk of their health problem it can be encountered early. It helps prevent deadly diseases so your beloved pets can live longer.

Neutering should never be done before physical and mental maturity which translate to over two years of. personally I have never found a good excuse to ever neuter but the vets recommend it as they have been told that is the only way to control unwanted breeding's when in reality the only way is responsible ownership.
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