Underbite and overbite

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weimdogman
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Underbite and overbite

Post by weimdogman » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:26 pm

Has anyone seen this as a problem in their dogs? I dont mean it has occured, I mean real issues because of it.
I researched it some and wonder how severe a misaligned bite has to be to experiance the issues discussed?

rinker
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Re: Underbite and overbite

Post by rinker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:37 pm

Underbites are pretty common in American Field registered English Pointers. I have had several over the years with an underbite. I don't know of any issue that it ever caused. A minor underbite doesn't bother me any at all. I have seen some that are pretty ugly. Some very prominent producers in the pointer world had underbites. I'm happy that their owners didn't let that stop them from being bred. I don't know this first hand, but I have been told by multiple people that Nell's Ramblin On, had an underbite. She is probably the best producing pointer bitch that ever lived.

cjhills
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Re: Underbite and overbite

Post by cjhills » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:49 am

In the discussion of bites it sometimes gets confusing. Most call it an overbite if the upper canines get in front of the lower canines. this easily seen at 5 weeks. I guess that could be an underbite of the lower jaw. In a lot of cases pulling the lower canines will allow the lower jaw to grow. Slight overbites are not a real big issue. It can cause some holding issues.
My personal opinion is that I will not breed a dog with bite issues because it is nearly impossible to place the puppies, surgery is expensive, and no matter how good the pup is breeding papers should be withheld. Once you get it in your breeding program it is nearly impossible to get rid of and can pop up in later generations. People Will disagree with this and say you can get rid of it in a few generations. But, you can't there will always be bite issues in some Bloodlines. To often the puppies with bad bites swept under the rug. It can be financially devastating to a breeding program. This is a personal issue that I had to deal with.....Cj

birddogger2
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Re: Underbite and overbite

Post by birddogger2 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:07 am

As mentioned previously, What I have heard referred to as "undershot jaw" where the lower jaw sticks out beyond the upper, has been an issue in FDSB(American Field) pointers for some time.

It is my understanding that the failure of the teeth to mesh properly can have effect on the dog's ability to eat, if it is pronounced. Other than that, I understand that it can interfere with the bich's ability to cleanly snip the umbilical.
I am not sure of either situation, but that is what I have heard. I can say from personal experience that is has zero effect on the dog's ability to hunt.

I did not hear that about Nell's Rambling On. It may or may not be true, but I never heard it before. One of NRO's most prominent progeny was Ch. Guard Rail who was by an Ch. Smart who had significant Elhew lineage on his topside.

The story I heard from several folks who were pretty dialed in, was that an early on, prominent Elhew sire had a bad bite, but Mr. Whele continued to breed him due to his (in his opinion) overwhelmingly positive attributes, reasoning that he could breed it out in a few generations. It appears he was wrong about being able to breed it out... if the story is true.

I can say that I have had a few dogs which developed slight, bad(undershot) bites and there is apparently no rhyme or reason to the occurrence that I can see. All of the parents had perfect bites(I actually checked their mouths), and from what I gathered from the breeders, so did most of the pups as they grew up. All of them had NRO or Guard Rail or other Elhew dogs in their pedigrees...close up and multiple times.

FWIW, I have had several dogs(many more than the one that were undershot) with virtually the same lineage that had perfect bites. The incidence of undershot jaw would appear to be somewhat random, and lower in occurrence, in pointers at this time.

Now, other than the Miller line of all age dogs, it is darn near impossible to completely avoid Elhew breeding in pointers and almost as impossible to avoid Guard Rail or other Nell's Rambling On progeny in FDSB pointers. So, it is a situation which, I think, will continue to pop up here and there, unfortunately.

As cJ said, the only responsible course of action is to not breed any dog which develops this flaw, once it is discovered.

It sucks, but that is the only way to keep it from spreading further, I think.

RayG

cjhills
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Re: Underbite and overbite

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:57 am

that is one of the problems with inbreeding. My dog was from a big time linebreeder. My female had 43 puppies in four litters over her breeding life. Two over bites in the one litter from the stud dog I bought as puppy. None from two different studs. Both were outcrosses. COI 1.78. They are still doing frozen semen breedings with the double grandsire to the male I bought. The only female used for breeding from the same litter produced two overbites. She showed no overbite signs. So I spayed the Master titled and health tested female I kept.She would have been capable of producing five figures in puppies. Nice pet though. Excellent grouse dog. I still have the male from the litter who had a over bite. I had his puppy''s bottom canines pulled at five months. he is very close to normal and a very good bird dog. He is neutered.
In trial dogs it probably is not a huge issue If you are breeding a lot of puppies and your main concerned is breeding a competitive dog. you can sell the puppies cheap or give them away. But when your are breeding for top of the line family bird dogs it is a disaster. Not breeding the ones that show overbite is fine but it is not enough...….Cj

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