Underbite a health problem ?

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:19 pm

My 10 month old Britt, Covey , has an underbite. It wasn't so noticable when she was younger, but now the bottom teeth just do overlap the tops.

Since the breeder gave a 30 month health guarantee, I don't know in my mind if this comes under that or not.

I would just like a couple of other folks opinions before I approach him to see what his response is, or see if I should .

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:17 pm

I can't say it is a real health problem but I would be totally upset. Your pup should never be bred and if you were planning on breeding , showing, or even trialing it makes it doubtful if it id worth the expense or the effort unless you just want to have something to do with yur dog. This is the perfect example of some show history is important in keeping our dogs in compliance with the standards.

I would make sure I would contact the breeder as the parents shouldn't be bred again or at least the one carring the gene if they know.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:33 pm

The breeder should be informed ..if the entire litter has the problem they shoud find other pairs to breed to
If you breed enough it isn'
it a not matter of if ..it is only a matter of when a pup will show up with a problem of some sort

Just like people a couple can have 4 normal children then one has downs syndrome

Just because the parents that are to standard it doesn't mean that they can't produce a pup or pups that may have problems or some type of issue
fact not fiction

If you were planning on breeding I would consult with your breeder

BlacknTan · Post by **BlacknTan** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:55 am

Underbite is not a health problem, per se. As ezzy pointed out, your pup should not be bred though.. If you just want to hunt your dog, enjoy her! It will have no effect on her abilities...

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:51 am

I read an interesting piece in Der Deutsche Kurzhaar, by Georgina Byrne, yesterday. Hers is one of the best, if not the best books on the GSP breed today, and covers what knowledge there is about genetics quite thoroughly.

There are studies on bite genetics that say that genes for top and bottom jaw are separately inherited. In other words, one set can come from the sire and one from the dam. As a result, malocclusions can be produced simply from breeding sire and dam with different head types. There need not be any genetic flaw in either sire or dam to produce this result.

Every breeder who breeds for any period of time will produce malocclusions. Malocclusions are in all lines INCLUDING SHOW LINES. Surprise, surprise.

The book is at work. I will post some quotes and citations later.

There was a very good article about canine genetics that was available on line awhile ago, I don't know if it still is. It was called "Of Pups and Peas." It is a good article and many people have read it, it is an explanation of basic Mendelian genetic theory. Basic Mendelian theory holds that each pup has two genes for a particular characteristic, it inherits one from each parent. And these genes act like an on/off switch, the pup either has a characteristic or it does not. It either has a black coat or a liver one, for example.

The problem, though, is that most breeders never get beyond basic Mendelian theory. They believe that every characteristic in an animal is a simple on/off switch, the dog either has the desired characteristic or the undesired one. Some are, such as coat color. But actually, a great many characteristics of dog and man are polygenic, determined by the combination of multiple genes, some inherited from one parent and some from another. Many characteristics are also subject to variation in their degree of expression.

Every dog, every breed, every line, has holes. Breeders who tell you theirs have none, are fooling either themselves, or you, or both of you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:15 am

Thanks guys for spanking me. I painted with too broad of a brush but used the show reference when I was just thinking confirmation. John, I am aware of the fact that a problem can occur in any line. Interesting about the inheritance from mom amd pop could be different for top and bottom jaw. I have seen several times where a pup has occured from a mating and as far as I know the parents never produced any others from different matings.

I sometimes try to state things in a very short manner that doesn't really explain my thoughts well just to keep from typing a book. In other words I don't type well.

Ezzy

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:22 am

I am sorry. That was not what I meant to do ezzy. You are a little old and too well respected for me to be spanking. Actually, there was a post on another board about "bad bites in field trial dogs" that had me doing some research.

I have seen them in dogs, I have seen them in humans. I have seen really good bites in dogs reputed to have bad bites, generally big name dogs and someone who wants you to breed to their dog and not the name dog will tell you, in whispered confidence of course, that the dog has a bad bite. But it does not.

We don't any of us (breeders) like to see them. We like to breed away from them. But they happen. I thought Byrne's was an interesting explanation, and seems to be supported with some studies.

My view of bite is that on the list of things to avoid, it is not at the top of the totem pole. Dysplasia, hypothyroid, bad temperament, epilepsy, things that make the dog useless or impaired for hunting purposes, are up near the top. It is not at the bottom either. We don't like it, but the dog can still hunt.

As a breeder, I do want to know about those things though, and make it a point to call puppy buyers when the dog is two plus years old, to find out if such issues exist, and how they like the dog. How else are you going to know? So I would say call the breeder and tell him or her. But it would be incorrect to accost them over their "poor breeding practices." You will find absolutely no purebred stock anywhere that is without fault.

Theresa · Post by **Theresa** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:01 pm

Zach, the underbite to the degree you have explained is not a health issue.

For sure contact your breeder and let them know.

Does your contract cover breeding or showing? As already posted an underbite is a fault that would prohibit both.

You mention that you noticed the bite off when she was younger; was this noted upon purchase?

At 8 weeks (56 days, give or take 3 days either way) - according to the Puppy Puzzle/Pat Hastings evaluation method (for show dogs) - if you check the occlusion/side bite at this time and the teeth fit together like pinking shears, the bite should be correct as an adult. If the molars do not fit together like pinking shears, it will go off. This is a general, and doesn't cover rocking bites, but something to check for in a pup prior to purchase.

Edited to add this link - illustrates what I mean re; pinking shears!
http://www.dentalvet.com/patients/ortho ... ontics.htm

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:43 pm

I feel I need to tell a little about me and my dogs. I have time and money to either hunt or trial. personally, I'd rather hunt and that is what we are working towards, hunting as often, in as many different places and different birds as I can afford. Things being what they are, that means quail close to home, perhaps in a couple of other places in Tx and 1 trip out of state for pheasants.

I have three Brittanys, 2 bought from the same breeder in Iowa and 1 bought from a breeder here in TX. I have hopes of beaing able to raise an occasional litter 3-4 years down the road after I see what kind of dogs I do have , have hips checked and so forth.

I paid $700 for Covey which is not as much as some and a lot more than others and I mostly paid it for her breeding, where as I bought Teal and Skynyrd based on their parents hunting abilities. But in my own defense, if Covey was a quarter horse, you could say she was bred to knock a hole in the wind. And she is everything a fellow could want with the most stylish point out of the three. I also knew her jaw jutted a little after she got some size on her, but her teeth didn't really overlap til she got her adult teeth. I kinda didnt want to admit it to myself, but I was loving on her last night after working with her and I looked at her teeth again and I knew I could not deny it to myself any longer

I have contacted the breeder and told him about her. I also know he bred this pair again in the next heat, which I thought went against most things a good breeder should do. I am going to leave it up to him.

I know you cannot predict underbite, hip dysplasia or anything else. But, since any one with a concious would not breed a dog with bad hips or teeth, I do feel somewhat shafted here.

I will have Covey fixed and hunt her butt off, but it still makes me a little sick inside.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:37 pm

As for back to back breedings...There are SOME indications that Say it is not as bad ..just as long as the female is in fit shape and that it is not a continual type thing either

but if you paid that much for a pup and were thinking of breeding her...I would hope that the breder at least reimburses you money or makes some type of compensation for you

LuLu_01 · Post by **LuLu_01** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:52 pm

Zachsdad,

I feel your pain. Once you own the pup, you fall head over heels over them, with faults or without. IMHO and experience, guarentees on health and defects, ect. Suddenly become a one sided warranty. Meaning, a contract to exclude the possibilities.

I'm sure you will enjoy the many hours of hunting with her but I personally empathize with you!

Best Wishes,

Donna

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:18 pm

If you don't want to get struck by lightening, don't stand outside in a thunderstorm. Can you be struck by lightening on what appears to be a sunny day, or sitting in your home? Yep, but the odds are exponentially greater for those standing outside in a thunderstorm than all of the other potential situations combined.

You know, it's amazing the lengths we go to in order to make simple things difficult.

Bite is a good example, along with umbilical hernias, retained testicles, pink noses, etc. If you don't want them, don't breed to dogs with those faults. How simple is that?

Are there double recessives, gene mutations, etc you have to worry about? Yep, but those risks are inherent and unpredictable. Those are truly difficult problems.

I'd venture a guess that the vast majority of GSPs (and Brits, for that matter) that have bad bites come from litters where either one or both parents have bad bites. For those with parents with good bites, I'd venture a guess that the majority have a grandparent with a bad bite. When looking at litters, rule out those two situations and you're in really good shape.

A bad bite is a health issue; the problem is we don't usually see the ramifications of bad bites until very late the dog's life. I've seen 10 year old GSPs who had to have their food soaked down because they have no teeth left, It's not the prettiest thing in the world; busted teeth, bloody gums and all. I ask a lot of my dogs, and put them in a lot of physically-risky situations as hunting dogs; I know that they may end up with injuries that will make their later years difficult. I don't need to add to that with physical traits that almost always can be prevented.

Is a bad bite as physically severe as bad hips or cancer? Nope. Are they all health problems that should be avoided at all costs? Yep.

For the most part, we have bad bites in performance GSPs because we are ignorant or greedy or selfish or jealous or all of the above. We could significantly reduce the number of dogs with bad bites by simply washing out pups with bad bites and having them spayed or neutered. We'd avoid the entire "well, yes his bite is bad but he's a 5X champion" discussions we have.

As to the idea of "well, they still hunt don't they" it's true, they do still hunt. No different than dogs that flag on game, bark all night long, point with their tail straight down, lay down on point, roll in their own sh*t - they all hunt too.

There are hundreds of Brits and GSPs out there that don't have major conformation faults like bad bites, and have all of the traits we look for in performance dogs; we're not so desperate in our breeds that we can't afford to throw out the ones with bad bites, if we wanted to. Many in our breeds plain don't care.

All lines do have holes, but some holes are a matter of preference and opinion, and others are a matter of fact. Some holes are predictable and easily identified, others are not. In the world of field trial dogs, "win at all costs" is the rule of the day, and any "hole" that doesn't affect a dog's ability to win isn't to be worried about.

Zach's Dad, I feel for you. I've not been in your situation, but eventually I will. I hope that I have the "courage of my convictions" like you do. I guess I'm lucky to have peers & mentors who won't breed or recommend dogs with bad bites; even if I convince myself that "it's ok" I know they won't let it slide.

JMO,
Dave

zachsdad · Post by **zachsdad** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:01 pm

Was taking care of the pack and loving on Covey again. You have to understand she loves to be held laying on her back in the crook of my arm and be rubbed all over.

Anyway, looking at her teeth again, it is so easy to say they really dont overlap that bad.

But, when I decided I wanted Brittanys and to possibly raise some later on, I made up my mind I wanted to raise the best I could and be able to stand behind what I had to offer. $150 " Farm Dogs" where not and are still not what I had in mind. Farm dog being the only description I could come up with. I know there are some fine Farm dogs out there.

Point is, it would not be fair to the buyer, the breed or to Covey who is really worth much more than that.

I always try to find an upside to thuings, but the only upside to this is, I guess i will be looking for another female pup in the future.

Kninebirddog, I have never been to Arizona. Do you have any sharp breedings planned for the next year ?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:24 pm

i have a couple in mind need to get OFA done first which won't be till after aug

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:09 pm

I could'nt disagree more about the parents having the problem in order to get the problem. I have seen things seemingly pop out of no where.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:58 pm

I have not done the numbers of litters you have snips. About ten I think. But I have seen the same, things arise that are not there in the parents or the grandparents. I guess, now that the pontificants have come in, I will have to get Byrne book and put up some of the material. The material about teeth is quite interesting and not at all as has been described by some here. Some who do not even breed at all.

Breeding is not an overnight skill or one to be learned on a computer. And it is not like making products in a factory where everything can, or should be made to such and such tolerances. The fact is, we still do not know most of what there is to know about canine genetics. Results are unpredictable.

Cocked up stories about dogs having to eat mush in later life notwithstanding, teeth are not a health issue unless the misbite is truly severe. They are cosmetic, the kind of thing humans have corrected with braces so they look like movie stars, but not things that cause disfunction or early death.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:29 pm

I ahve seen some dogs with some serious over bites which required the canine to be ground down so it made it easier for him to eat

I have seen some bad undershot jaws..
none of these dogs require any thng special food wise
I ahve see old champion show dogs require mush when they were 16 years old because the teeth had fallen out from Age

As stated breeders can have two perfectly normal dogs ..that just may throw a fluke
but guess what...anytime you put together a litter you still have to factor mother nature in...
a responisble breeder do what they can to put the odds in their favor for the best pups possible and will do something to make it right with the purchaser of a pup should something not be right..and that is what being a responsible breeder boils down to.

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:06 am

I would own and hunt a dog with a bad bite for many years, but I would not breed one no matter how well they were bred.

Last trial season, I walked over to a GSP pup on a stake-out to give him a pet. While I was scratching his ears, I snuck a peek at his bite. The breeder was standing there, and since he knows that I can't help but give the dog a "once over", he asked me how the bite looked. I answered, "since his sire is overshot, and his grandsire is overshot, why shouldn't he be?". :roll: