Range in a dog

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Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:48 am

If you desire a dog to hunt at say a moderate to close range and they are from high octane FT stock, are there any drills that a guy could start with a pup? Just curious as to what you trainers have to say on this topic.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Dave Quindt » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:22 am

1. Throw out any preconceived notions you have about "high octane FT stock".

2. Train the dog like you would any other hunting dog; teach the dog to be obedient in the field, turn on command and hunt at your pace.

90% of pups bred directly from "high octane FT stock" are sold, and have always been sold, to non-trialing hunters.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by bossman » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:37 am

What type of dog's do you have? What type of birds do you normally hunt? "Moderate" may mean different things to different people. Quindt is correct. I've had dog's for 35 years, all out of "All Age" FT stock. Never had a problem getting them to hunt at my pace. I really want a dog to hunt the cover of the ground we're on.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Tall Boy » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 am

Begin teaching quartering at an early age. Attach a verbal command to it like "hup". It takes hours and hours of work in the yard for a dog to respond consistantley in the field, especially a big running dog. But it's possible, whenever I'm yard working I will quarter the dog in front the entire time, giving the "whoa" commands when he comes back to the front, and "here" to "heel" commands. It helps to have edges set up for the dog to visaully pick up on, this way they see an objective and go towards it rather than just running in a direction. When in town, walking down a side street works real well, quartering the dog from one side to another. Just let the dog get to one side, say hup and pop the c.c. to get the dog moving back to the front, and then to the other sdie of the street. I think one of the hardest things to do is effect a dog's range, but it's possible, it just takes time...and be ready to start all over once you turn them loose. This is where a bird field comes in handy, I like to practice my quartering drills through the bird field w/ or w/o birds. once the dog is responding quick, and snappy every time it is time to overlay to the e-collar. Once done with the overlay, it's time to for the dog to drag the lead, and then be off lead. The first time the dog realizes you no longer have direct connection(dragging the lead) he will want to do his own thing, stay on him and make him do it

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:48 pm

bossman wrote:What type of dog's do you have? What type of birds do you normally hunt? "Moderate" may mean different things to different people. Quindt is correct. I've had dog's for 35 years, all out of "All Age" FT stock. Never had a problem getting them to hunt at my pace. I really want a dog to hunt the cover of the ground we're on.
I have 2 old Britts and a 22 month DD. I have owned and hunted with many different breeds. My dogs generally hunt 200-300 yards for sharpies and Huns, and then really tighten up with phez. Obviously thicker cover. I want to get an EP next, and I know that many like to really range. I also am very aware that that range can be controlled. I have the utmost confidence in an EP being able to understand this. All of my dogs have hunted at that range I described naturally. I haven't had to reel them in too much. Occasionally, I did have to shock them and remind them, but EPs like to roll more in my experience with them. I was just curious what steps I should take in the beginning so that the dog isn't encouraged by me to run bigger. If I just need to treat him like other dogs than fine, just was curious.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:51 pm

Tall Boy wrote:Begin teaching quartering at an early age. Attach a verbal command to it like "hup". It takes hours and hours of work in the yard for a dog to respond consistantley in the field, especially a big running dog. But it's possible, whenever I'm yard working I will quarter the dog in front the entire time, giving the "whoa" commands when he comes back to the front, and "here" to "heel" commands. It helps to have edges set up for the dog to visaully pick up on, this way they see an objective and go towards it rather than just running in a direction. When in town, walking down a side street works real well, quartering the dog from one side to another. Just let the dog get to one side, say hup and pop the c.c. to get the dog moving back to the front, and then to the other sdie of the street. I think one of the hardest things to do is effect a dog's range, but it's possible, it just takes time...and be ready to start all over once you turn them loose. This is where a bird field comes in handy, I like to practice my quartering drills through the bird field w/ or w/o birds. once the dog is responding quick, and snappy every time it is time to overlay to the e-collar. Once done with the overlay, it's time to for the dog to drag the lead, and then be off lead. The first time the dog realizes you no longer have direct connection(dragging the lead) he will want to do his own thing, stay on him and make him do it
Very interesting Tall Boy. Thank you.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by bossman » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:20 pm

As I'm sure you will, I would certainly talk to several reputable breeders of EP's and explain to them what your trying to accomplish. They should be able to point you in the direction of a litter with parents that possess the qualities your looking for. That might help as a start..Good luck...

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:02 pm

I believe when I get ready to pull the trigger, I will contact Ross Callaway from Caladen Kennels. I have talked to people who have owned his pups and I have been impressed. If anyone has the name of some other breeders that they feel are very good also, I would be all ears. This is a dog that I'm thinking of getting in a year or so. Maybe 18 months.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:55 pm

Quindt is absolutely correct...if breeders had to rely on selling their dog only to field trialers they would starve. The time you spend and the training is a clear reflection of he dog you get in the future. Breed and breeding surely have a difference and a decent argument is to look for breeders with shooting/gun dogs but this year's American Field Nat AA Champ makes daily trips to the bank and Starbuck's in the off season...they adapt well to their environment and expectations.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Ryman Gun Dog » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:28 am

Birddogz,
Range is very subjective, genetic imprint plays a big part in what type of dog you want to hunt behind, there are many different types. Do you want a big running dog for Texas Quail or do you want a Grouse dog for the deep woods. Sure you can make a dog adapt by discipline and training, but what you want to accomplish is
purchasing the type of dog you most want to hunt behind, different dogs are bred for different job, fighting a genetic imprint is a big waste of time. Investigate and purchase the dog you most want to hunt with, then see the stud and dam hunt, range should really be subject to the habitat being hunted and the experience of both the dog and master and how long they have hunted together.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:45 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Investigate and purchase the dog you most want to hunt with, then see the stud and dam hunt, range should really be subject to the habitat being hunted and the experience of both the dog and master and how long they have hunted together.
Excellent point. One thing about EPs that seems to help...when they are young, bond with them and make them think that the sun rises and sets with YOU! If that pup wants to be with you, they tend not to be run offs. Those that are not socialized early on seem to have a mind of their own and tend to be "on the edge"...although, some of us like those :wink:

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:47 am

PntrRookie wrote:Excellent point. One thing about EPs that seems to help...when they are young, bond with them and make them think that the sun rises and sets with YOU! If that pup wants to be with you, they tend not to be run offs. Those that are not socialized early on seem to have a mind of their own and tend to be "on the edge"...although, some of us like those :wink:
+1 on what PntrRookie said.

If a pointer likes you and wants to be with you, it will come back for you. if it dont...it won't.

Folks make waaaaay too much about the range thing when the dog's range is really not the issue at all. It IS the lack of biddability or comeback in the dog. It can be the training and experience of the dog. It can be the lack of confidence that the hunter/handler has in their dog. It can be that a dog rangeing out too far exceeds the comfort level of the hunter/handler. iIt can be that the dog is not sufficiently well trained to hold its birds until the hunter can get there. Sometimes it can be all or some of the above. And YES sometimes it can be that the dog indeed does range too far out to be effective for the particular game being sought.

If the dog ranges out of sight and finds a bird...then waits patiently, holding the pointed bird until you get there...WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??

If the dog ranges out of sight into the cover and then dips back to make contact every minute or two...WHAT IS THE PROBLEM??

If the dog stays in sight and never goes anywhere that the hunter cannot and does not go themselves...WHY DO YOU NEED A DOG??

Range is a relative thing. What is comfortable for one person might not be for someone else. However, range is usually not the core issue, IMHO.

I have always had what most would consider bigger running dogs. However, each and every one of those dogs was expected to dial it down...on their own or, in more recent years, with the reminder of the e-collar, on a 20 acre preserve. They adjusted, they adapted. They did what was necessary to get the job done in the differnting circumstances.

Before I got into field trialing, I once took a pair of dogs, one of who who had never seen a wild bird in his entire life, and the other who hadn't seen one in over five years...out to eastern Kansas to hunt wild quail and pheasant. It took them about 15 minutes to adapt to the different, wide open landscape. It took precisely one covey contact for them to learn to respect the wild birds and not crowd them. The entire rest of the week, not a single bird was bumped. A lot depends on what the dog has between its ears. A lot depends on just how badly that dog wants to wrap its gums around a bird. A lot depends on just how much we demand of our dogs.

My current dogs are capable of running a competitive horseback shooting dog race on Saturday and hunting from foot on a preserve on Sunday. They know what is expected of them under the different circumstances and they adjust. No big deal. Really.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:23 pm

I agree with most of what you typed, but having a dog that quarters is a very good thing in a piece of homogeneous CRP when hunting pheasants. A dog that runs too big can be detrimental on a late season pheasant hunt. Pheasants constantly run, and can be found everywhere and anywhere because of this. There really is no such thing as ground that is unproductive if cover exists there. When hunting quail, sharpies, huns, PCs, etc. I believe you are correct.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:04 pm

I believe that every dog comes with a God given range. You can control that range, but you can never really change the range.

When you see a person hacking a dog in the grouse woods or crp, that's what they're doing; controlling the range.

I don't think range matters. Let the dog hunt where he's comfortable and productive and adjust to it. Most intelligent, well socialized dogs will stretch it out on the prairies and shorten it up in the grouse woods. IMO.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:21 pm

[quote="gonehuntin'"]I believe that every dog comes with a God given range. You can control that range, but you can never really change the range.

I totally agree with that statement.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:52 pm

any pointing dog regardless of breed is gonna move phez in Crp. That's no big deal.

My enjoyment comes when he finally nails one down regardless of how, fence row, shelter belt edge, or passed close enough to make the rooster sit(but not so close as to flush). Rays statement about what they have between their ears says it all...a good pointing dog , regardless of breed will figure out how to make one sit. If you worry bout a pointing dog moving phez in crp and that bothers the handler....its time to buy a lab and stay on his 6.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Dave Quindt » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:06 pm

Birddogz wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I believe that every dog comes with a God given range. You can control that range, but you can never really change the range.

I totally agree with that statement.
Ironic, as there is probably no statement I disagree with more that that one. My experiences have been exactly the opposite.

To me, range (and I don't even know how to precisely define that term) is not a trait, but the result of some specific genetic traits (speed, gait, intelligence, cooperation, conformation, etc) and more importantly the dog's training and experiences.

Most people can't tell the difference between a fast dog and a big going dog, and most can't tell the differnce between a moderate ranging dog and big going dog, as 99.9% of dogs are never put on grounds where they can show the difference. And you certainly can't tell a dog's "natural range" (once again, whatever that means) by working dog off of foot; you need to spend a lot of time in the saddle or on a wheeler to figure that out.

I've seen far too many dogs who developed naturally as close working dogs simply explode into huge going dogs when given the right opportunity to fall for the "range is preset and there's nothing you can do about it" claim. The more dogs I see and the more time I spend around them the more I'm convinced that line is far from the truth.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:48 pm

Why does a dog range? Because he can.
Some dogs range more because they can. Others do not range as much because they can't.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:24 am

Dave Quindt wrote:
Birddogz wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I believe that every dog comes with a God given range. You can control that range, but you can never really change the range.

I totally agree with that statement.
Ironic, as there is probably no statement I disagree with more that that one. My experiences have been exactly the opposite.
Dave
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:39 pm

slistoe wrote:Why does a dog range? Because he can.
Some dogs range more because they can. Others do not range as much because they can't.
That is just not so. There are dogs that don't range that are physically capable of it. I've roaded dogs that have a medium range, and seen them be able to run further in the harness than dogs that range further in the field. It isn't necessarily a physical trait. Some dogs naturally have a closer range. Maybe I am taking what you are saying the wrong way, but it sounds as if you are saying dogs that don't range aren't physically capable of it.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:22 pm

I think what Scott meant is its mental, sure any dog can range physically....and some love to play 4 wheeler games
more than others.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:49 am

Dave Quindt wrote:
Birddogz wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I believe that every dog comes with a God given range. You can control that range, but you can never really change the range.

I totally agree with that statement.
Ironic, as there is probably no statement I disagree with more that that one. My experiences have been exactly the opposite.

To me, range (and I don't even know how to precisely define that term) is not a trait, but the result of some specific genetic traits (speed, gait, intelligence, cooperation, conformation, etc) and more importantly the dog's training and experiences.

Most people can't tell the difference between a fast dog and a big going dog, and most can't tell the differnce between a moderate ranging dog and big going dog, as 99.9% of dogs are never put on grounds where they can show the difference. And you certainly can't tell a dog's "natural range" (once again, whatever that means) by working dog off of foot; you need to spend a lot of time in the saddle or on a wheeler to figure that out.

I've seen far too many dogs who developed naturally as close working dogs simply explode into huge going dogs when given the right opportunity to fall for the "range is preset and there's nothing you can do about it" claim. The more dogs I see and the more time I spend around them the more I'm convinced that line is far from the truth.

JMO,
Dave

Why can't a dog have a natural range on foot and on horseback? Natural range is simply the range of a dog that isn't controlled by the handler in wide open spaces. Let him hunt, and see how far he goes on his own. To me natural range is the level of cooperation that the dog has genetically. A dog that hunts as a team with you will understand what the optimum range is for the quarry that you pursue. A cooperative dog figures out range by how many warm birds they get to carry in their mouth. If they are hunting at 1200 yards for a foot hunter, they aren't going to get to carry too many birds in their mouth. On horseback, sure they can open up. I have hunted with bird dogs close to 30 years, and I have seen dogs that simply never understand this. No matter how many times they are shocked/disciplined they never figure out to hunt closer. They may figure it out for a while, and you may be able to control them for a while, but give them a chance and they will disappear over the horizon. That is what is meant by the natural range. The mental ability for a dog to comprehend what makes hunter and dog the most successful. 100 yards on roosters, 300 yards on Huns and sharpies, 1000 yards on horseback for quail, etc. Some dogs simply don't have it. They need to be biddable and hunt for the hunter "naturally", not hunt for themselves. Every breed has its good and bad, it doesn't really matter what the breed is, but breeding within a breed is crucial. The analogy I think of is a receiver/QB relationship in football. The hunter, the QB, and the receiver, the dog need to be on the same page. There are plenty of kids that can run 4.4 forty times that never amount to squat on the field because they don't understand the game. There are dogs like this too. Some dogs run too big "naturally", and therefore are running go routes on every play. Sometimes a dog has to run an out for the first down. It is the understanding of this "team" play that I believe makes up natural range. Some dogs are team players, and others are not. A dog can certainly hunt too close for cover as well. The problem exists in both directions.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:06 am

I believe there are predisposed genetics to run, no doubt about it. However, early exposure to different landscapes including open country comfortable to a puppy plays a big part as well. In early imprinting stages a dog that gains confidence will carry that through its life. A handler that hacks a puppy in and has to be constantly nervous about a puppies run due to physical dangers in the "play area" will shape a dog's behavior for sure. Lastly, I will say that you can still influence this in later training. "In" is much easier than "out"...but you can teach a dog later to handle to commands that tell them where you want the to be. "Hup" turns my dogs off a straight line, a long whistle blast releases them and sends the straight away, and two short blasts means "come".

Most of the time, I feel that people who are worried about a dog's range have a run off problem. the dog is not trying to go with them. This is something that should be shaped early on in quartering and direction drills with a checkcord.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:32 am

chukar hit the nail on the head with the "go with". If you have a dog that goes with you then range will not be an issue (unless you have a complex about it, like always needing to see the dog ). Dogs that don't go with you are a problem whether they range far away or short. I used to teach my dogs to go with me until I started to field trial and discovered that there are lots of dogs who do so naturally. Now I don't care to keep and work with a dog that won't go with me. Then there is the desire to hunt. If the dog does not have an all consuming "need" to hunt and the run as a preferred gait to get there he simply will not range out. The next part about range is confidence. Very few dogs like to be lost (the ones that don't really care about being lost aren't worth the time to work with) but if you shape a young dogs experiences such that he trusts that he cannot get lost he will have the confidence to range wherever he needs to and you might want him to. Some dogs simply do not have the mental capacity to do this and will never range satisfactorily. Then we come to physical abilities. We have a dog that wants to hunt on the run. He will go with us and we have built his confidence, but then we may find that he simply does not have the physical capacity to maintain range at speed for any amount of time. Of course all this comes with the proviso that the dog actually has the physical and mental olfactory abilities to put the range and speed to use for practical purpose.

So if you do not want a dog that will range too far there are lots of options available to you. You can get a dog that is afraid to be out of your sight. You can get a dog that cannot smell so well. You can get a dog that is lacking in physical abilities. You can get a dog that has little desire to hunt. You can get a dog that prefers to move at a trot/walk. But if you want your dog to be a useful, worry free hunting companion do not get a dog that won't go with you and do not get a dog that you can't train.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:05 am

I can see 1500 yards or more when hunting sharp tails. If a dog is that far, they are not "going with me". Heck they won't even know where "me" is at that range. Now, in the grouse woods or CRP it is common to have them out of sight. Having a dog that keeps an eye on what you're doing means you have a dog that is hunting for you. That is a great quality. I don't want a dog that I have to go looking for, he should be looking to stay at a range that increases our chances of killing birds, NOT a range that he finds the most birds, and we don't get to kill them. It isn't about his wants, it is about what is best for the team. Also, many times a person may only have a 40 acre patch in a specific area to hunt. A dog that blazes way out will be hunting land that the hunter does not have permission on. If you have a dog that you can control well, than that is great. I just have hunted with many dogs that range too far when you don't want them to.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by BigShooter » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:32 pm

What I want is an independent dog that finds birds & handles them well enough that the birds hold until I'm within gunning range. I don't want a dog that quarters & stays close because it needs direction from me to help it cover a field or run to likely looking objectives. Likewise I don't want a dog that I need to keep close to me because it doesn't handle birds well and puts them to flight out of gunning range. I've yet to own a dog that ran off while hunting. I don't hunt 20 acre reserves with boundaries and can understand how recall or turning may be unusually important under very limited circumstances. Trying to control range to overcome other deficiencies in breeding or training is often (in my opinion) a rather poor alternative.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:46 pm

Birddogz wrote:I can see 1500 yards or more when hunting sharp tails. If a dog is that far, they are not "going with me". Heck they won't even know where "me" is at that range.
First - there most certainly are dogs that are "going with you" at 1500 yards. They are not real common because dogs that work at 1500 yards are few and far between. Most people cannot recognize a dog that is "going with you" at 400 yards let alone 1500 yards.

Secondly - dogs know far, far better where "me" is at any range than "me" knows where they is.

Third - if the majority of your hunting is on 40 acre patches get a dog that can't/won't range very far. They are much more common (thanks to misdirected thinking) than dogs that range properly.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:50 pm

and ya gotta love the pointers that will get out there 500 + and close right up on 20-40 acres or in pheasant rich grass....thats what I have seen out of my two.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:00 pm

birddog1968 wrote:and ya gotta love the pointers that will get out there 500 + and close right up on 20-40 acres or in pheasant rich grass....thats what I have seen out of my two.
Ah, but can yours get to 1500 yards, run around like a goof flushing all the birds and chasing them and ignore all commands to come back in for hours on end?

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:16 pm

birddog1968 wrote:and ya gotta love the pointers that will get out there 500 + and close right up on 20-40 acres or in pheasant rich grass....thats what I have seen out of my two.
That is perfect. I just have seen many dogs that can't/don't shorten up when they need to, and blow out loads of phez. If your dogs will do that, than they are exactly perfect. That is what I desire in my dogs. 500 is stretching it, but 300 certainly.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:38 pm

slistoe wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:and ya gotta love the pointers that will get out there 500 + and close right up on 20-40 acres or in pheasant rich grass....thats what I have seen out of my two.
Ah, but can yours get to 1500 yards, run around like a goof flushing all the birds and chasing them and ignore all commands to come back in for hours on end?

Hey were you watching me hunt the first South Dakota field I entered with my white dog :lol:

On a serious note, I had one played that game for a short while, but we got his mind right. I sold him because he needed to be out west running on big ground, he looked awesome on point by the time I sold him....but he just had that drive/need to get way out there.

This is him on a 35 yard point on snipe.
Image
Last edited by birddog1968 on Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:39 pm

slistoe wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I can see 1500 yards or more when hunting sharp tails. If a dog is that far, they are not "going with me". Heck they won't even know where "me" is at that range.
First - there most certainly are dogs that are "going with you" at 1500 yards. They are not real common because dogs that work at 1500 yards are few and far between. Most people cannot recognize a dog that is "going with you" at 400 yards let alone 1500 yards.


If a dog goes over a hill at 1500 yards and I turn 90 degrees, he isn't going to be going with me, because he is too far away to see me, and when the wind is blowing, which it seems it always is, he won't hear me either. I'm talking foot hunting here. On a horse, I can see it, but on foot 1500 yards is WAY to far for my tastes.

Secondly - dogs know far, far better where "me" is at any range than "me" knows where they is.

This is totally false. I hunt with a Garmin Astro. I know exactly where he is.

Third - if the majority of your hunting is on 40 acre patches get a dog that can't/won't range very far. They are much more common (thanks to misdirected thinking) than dogs that range properly.
The majority of my hunting is not on 40 acre patches, but some spots certainly are, and a dog that can't be held close when you want them close is a dog that isn't hunting properly. You seem to think that a dog that ranges further is better. Sometimes that is the case, but sometimes it isn't. Every dog I have owned has the capability to range to 500 yards. It isn't that rare. The trick is to have them hunt in a way that produces the most success. You claim that if you hunt a lot of 40 acre spots that you should get a dog that doesn't range very far. Why? Aren't the dogs that range far the same dogs that can hunt tight when you want them to? It really is about training. I will admit that some dogs are harder to control. Which is the whole point to wanting a dog that ranges naturally at the limit of what you desire. Starting with a dog that hunts too close or too far is going to make your job more difficult.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:43 pm

most well bred ones will do exactly what you want....its the rare individual that runs to the horizons.

Get a dog out of Honky Tonk or Miller breeding and you will be happy....Train them gently and make sure they worship the ground you walk on and your golden.

edit- the breeding I mention is what I like and not inclusive, but maybe look at walking blood maybe nbha /af or nstra dogs.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:57 pm

I totally agree about the worshiping. Take the dog into your house and love him. Feed him, exercise him, and give him lots of petting.

I lean towards NAVHDA because it mimics what I do in the field the most.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:43 pm

slistoe wrote:
Third - if the majority of your hunting is on 40 acre patches get a dog that can't/won't range very far. They are much more common (thanks to misdirected thinking) than dogs that range properly.
Whoa, whoa, whoa there Scott. Just what is a dog that "ranges properly"? To some grouse hunters, that's a dog that is never more that 50 yards out. To a sharptail hunter, it may be 400 yards.

I don't think there is any such thing as "proper range". Proper range is the range that each person likes his dog to work at and varies with each individual.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:21 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Third - if the majority of your hunting is on 40 acre patches get a dog that can't/won't range very far. They are much more common (thanks to misdirected thinking) than dogs that range properly.
Whoa, whoa, whoa there Scott. Just what is a dog that "ranges properly"? To some grouse hunters, that's a dog that is never more that 50 yards out. To a sharptail hunter, it may be 400 yards.

I don't think there is any such thing as "proper range". Proper range is the range that each person likes his dog to work at and varies with each individual.
:D A dog that ranges properly is one that will go where the birds are and the cover dictates. A 400 yard dog on the prairie will be a 75 yard dog in the heavy bush. Dogs limit their range to where they are comfortable and just as our comfort range for distance changes with changing conditions so does the dogs. A good grouse dog and a good prairie dog are not different dogs.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:26 pm

Then why did you just tell me in a previous post that if I hunt mostly 40 acre patches of cover I need a dog that doesn't have the ability to range? Why not just use the dog that adjusts to cover?
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:44 pm

slistoe wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Third - if the majority of your hunting is on 40 acre patches get a dog that can't/won't range very far. They are much more common (thanks to misdirected thinking) than dogs that range properly.
Whoa, whoa, whoa there Scott. Just what is a dog that "ranges properly"? To some grouse hunters, that's a dog that is never more that 50 yards out. To a sharptail hunter, it may be 400 yards.

I don't think there is any such thing as "proper range". Proper range is the range that each person likes his dog to work at and varies with each individual.
:D A dog that ranges properly is one that will go where the birds are and the cover dictates. A 400 yard dog on the prairie will be a 75 yard dog in the heavy bush. Dogs limit their range to where they are comfortable and just as our comfort range for distance changes with changing conditions so does the dogs. A good grouse dog and a good prairie dog are not different dogs.
Boy, are we in agreement there!!!! :D
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by BigShooter » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:44 pm

Hunting 40 acre cover with artificial boundaries imposed because you're not supposed to cross a boundary is a lot different situation than controlling the range of your dog while hunting 40 acres of bird holding cover, with a significant change in landscape beyond the edges and some distance to the next piece of cover. If your pointing dog busts birds I understand why you want it close & you'd better heel the dog to the next piece of cover.

I'm sure a number of you have seen a dog scouring a field when they first hit the ground and suddenly race out 600-800 yards to get into running birds and hold them before they leave the area. When my oldest dog was younger and ranging out I hacked her back occasionally thinking she really hadn't covered an area properly & birds were missed. After being wrong 99.99% of the time I quickly learned the bitch knew what she was doing. My dogs' ranges change based upon cover, scenting conditions, rate & number of scent encounters and whether birds are holding tight or running.

I still say keeping a dog within your comfort zone is a poor substitute for a wild bird educated dog with impeccable manners on birds, ranging at will. Occasionally my dogs will range 1200 yards foot hunting on the prairies and they stay with me. They always know where I am.

The one thing I will say about range is I have observed dogs with imperfect training that are range wise. Almost like kids when they think they are out of sight of the parents. Some dogs have a range within which they will have impecable manners on birds for you however once they get to some point where they think they are beyond your control they'll get a little wild including bumping birds. Again range control is a poor substitute for a broke dog with impeccable manners on birds.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by BigShooter » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:05 pm

I have a question, what's a pointing dog that ranges out of gun range & busts birds ................. a flusher? :P
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:06 pm

Birddogz wrote:You seem to think that a dog that ranges further is better.
That would not be my statement.
Birddogz wrote: Sometimes that is the case, but sometimes it isn't.
A dog that will range as required is better.
Birddogz wrote: Every dog I have owned has the capability to range to 500 yards. It isn't that rare.
That is a long, long ways from 1500 yards. I was judging with an old time trialer/judge once and as we rode we discussed some of the old dogs we had known on the circuit. I mentioned one GSP (he was a pointer/setter man through and through) and his eyes lit up. He pointed to a covert across the field and said "I was judging him when he put his nose to that piece of cover over there and as he kept going I thought he is really going to make it all the way out to there. And he did." That piece of cover was 400 yards out and the reality is that very, very few Shooting Dogs (even the Setters) had the wherewithal to make the cast to that bush. But that is at a trial pace.
Birddogz wrote:You claim that if you hunt a lot of 40 acre spots that you should get a dog that doesn't range very far. Why? Aren't the dogs that range far the same dogs that can hunt tight when you want them to? It really is about training. I will admit that some dogs are harder to control. Which is the whole point to wanting a dog that ranges naturally at the limit of what you desire.
:) So you don't have to worry about training them. Hope you get one with a nose and some point and you can wave the dog back and forth in front of you like a metal finder. A real hunting dog.
Birddogz wrote:Starting with a dog that hunts too close or too far is going to make your job more difficult.
Starting with a dog that won't range out will make your job impossible. As for too far - well is that for your 40 acre covert or your sharptail field? There really is no such thing as too far when hunting an honest, trained dog for sharpies and huns is there? There is no such thing as too close for an untrained, dishonest mutt.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by bossman » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:09 pm

BigShooter..Excellent posts imo. One should not confuse a "big running" dog with a "run off" or a dog that hunts for himself.

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by gonehuntin' » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:37 pm

One note about range; most bird hunters are terrible at range estimation. It takes practice. I've had people watch my dog run and say she was a quarter mile out. The Astro said 200 yards.

I've learned to believe precious little about dog range unless that dog is wearing a gps unit.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:16 pm

BigShooter wrote:Hunting 40 acre cover with artificial boundaries imposed because you're not supposed to cross a boundary is a lot different situation than controlling the range of your dog while hunting 40 acres of bird holding cover, with a significant change in landscape beyond the edges and some distance to the next piece of cover. If your pointing dog busts birds I understand why you want it close & you'd better heel the dog to the next piece of cover.

I'm sure a number of you have seen a dog scouring a field when they first hit the ground and suddenly race out 600-800 yards to get into running birds and hold them before they leave the area. When my oldest dog was younger and ranging out I hacked her back occasionally thinking she really hadn't covered an area properly & birds were missed. After being wrong 99.99% of the time I quickly learned the bitch knew what she was doing. My dogs' ranges change based upon cover, scenting conditions, rate & number of scent encounters and whether birds are holding tight or running.

I still say keeping a dog within your comfort zone is a poor substitute for a wild bird educated dog with impeccable manners on birds, ranging at will. Occasionally my dogs will range 1200 yards foot hunting on the prairies and they stay with me. They always know where I am.

The one thing I will say about range is I have observed dogs with imperfect training that are range wise. Almost like kids when they think they are out of sight of the parents. Some dogs have a range within which they will have impecable manners on birds for you however once they get to some point where they think they are beyond your control they'll get a little wild including bumping birds. Again range control is a poor substitute for a broke dog with impeccable manners on birds.

a dog where I hunt running at 6-800 yards on phez is running by many birds. Also, it would take the average hunter 4-5 minutes to get to a dog on point at that range. Late season roosters will rarely hold that long. If you slam a car door they will get up wild and fly out of sight. Now for sharpies and huns that wouldn't be so bad, but the pheasants that I pursue later in the year will rarely hold long enough at that range.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:31 pm

:) So you don't have to worry about training them. Hope you get one with a nose and some point and you can wave the dog back and forth in front of you like a metal finder. A real hunting dog


I can tell you that there is absolutely no better type of dog for late season roosters than a wind shield wiper in cattails and thick marsh grass, especially after a fresh snow. You need a dog to cover every inch of the cover as the birds can be everywhere buried. I don't want my dogs hunting that way for PCs, Sharpies, Huns, quail, but for late season phez that is the most effective pattern for a dog. I don't know how many days afield you spend in December and January chasing phez, but they are a different bird. It may not be what you consider the most pure way for a pointing dog to hunt, but my freezer can attest to its effectiveness. I want a dog to be able to hunt either way. After all if a dog is trained properly, they should be able to hunt how ever you want them to. Nothing wrong with a dog sweeping back and forth 75-100 yards in front of you. You will be very successful with that pattern. With other birds, I agree that quartering is not preferable, but with flat homogeneous cover like cattails and CRP and running birds, it isn't a bad way to go. :wink:
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by BigShooter » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:33 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:One note about range; most bird hunters are terrible at range estimation. It takes practice. I've had people watch my dog run and say she was a quarter mile out. The Astro said 200 yards.

I've learned to believe precious little about dog range unless that dog is wearing a gps unit.
I won't argue about how well various people estimate ranges. For those of us fortunate enough to hunt the prairies there are section lines virtually every mile(1,760 yards). Most section lines are quite visible with at least a two rut road. If you walk for a little while & see your dog approaching the next section line I think it is a bit easier to guesstimate the distance involved.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by BigShooter » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:29 pm

Birddogz wrote::) With other birds, I agree that quartering is not preferable, but with flat homogeneous cover like cattails and CRP and running birds, it isn't a bad way to go. :wink:
We've had slower short working pointing dogs of a different breed make it through the cover after a bigger running dog took off to pin down some running Phez. The short working dogs don't come up with missed birds. We've also held dogs back that were straining to get out there because they could tell the birds had been where we were standing but the Phez were gone from the area now ..... and we've come up with no birds in the field. Maybe I'm just lucky but I don't have dogs that pass up birds because they ranged out. There seems to be some confusion between letting a good dog dog range at will & some people thinking those dogs must miss birds and are always ranged out to 600-800 yards. As has been said many times in this thread that is absolutely untrue. They adapt their range to the prey & the conditions. The same dog that takes off after running birds and may range big in open terrain is the same dog that shortens way up as needed & scours the cattails or the woods.

I just believe the good experienced dogs with the right training don't need constant direction from the handler to work the conditions correctly & pin down the prey. I guess if one shoots wild flushed birds then you definitely want a bird buster working near you.

A dog that crowds birds & doesn't stay well off when on point will definitely have more difficulty in Dec.

I primarily hunt ND for sharps, huns & phez from the middle of Sept. until the season closes in early Jan. My grouse hunting in MN has been intentionally more limited in recent years. We hunt in the heat, cold, rain, sleet, wind & snow.

All that really matters though is that you find what works well for you & your dog & maximizes the team's enjoyment of the experience. The rest of this is idle chat to pass the time until the fall's hunting season starts again.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by Birddogz » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:35 pm

I agree with your post. I'm just saying that where I hunt a dog needs to shorten up at times. I live in ND.
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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:41 am

And despite being told dozens of times by different people with dogs of every breed description that they can get it done you still don't believe it?

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Re: Range in a dog

Post by slistoe » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:44 am

BigShooter wrote: I won't argue about how well various people estimate ranges. For those of us fortunate enough to hunt the prairies there are section lines virtually every mile(1,760 yards). Most section lines are quite visible with at least a two rut road. If you walk for a little while & see your dog approaching the next section line I think it is a bit easier to guesstimate the distance involved.
Around here the sections are crossfenced into quarters. Fence every 1/2 mile. Now I don't know what your eyes are like but I have a tough time picking out a dog at the half mile. I can honestly say that I have never seen a dog at a mile without some sort of visual aid.

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