Too much wild bird exposure?

[Kiki]

Hello all, I have an almost 4 month old English Pointer puppy. I've been takeing her out for walks in birdy areas at least twice a week since she was around 10 weeks old. She's able to find wild birds but the only time I've ever seen hold her point is when she found her first wild bird. Since then she's just been finding and flushing, no point. She's probably done this around 20+ times. She does flash a point before she starts trailing the scent but not when she's within the scent cone. I'm startin to worry that she may be getting too much exposure to wild birds and may start to think that we're there to flush the birds and not point.
Her first exposure to birds in the field was planted pigeons. She'd point the pigeons but not as staunchly as she did her first wild bird. So I'm thinkin the point is in her but I really don't want to mess it up. Should I take her off wild birds and start working with pigeons only... at least until she knows that she's expected to hold point or can/should I continue to take her out in areas that have wild bird? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[ymepointer]

This is pretty normal, just be patient and the wild birds will do a lot of work for you

[helpful_cub]

If you have Netflix rent the movie "Gun dog". It talks about how to train your pointer. The instinct to point is defently there you just need to teach him the "woah" command. After that you can start working with him on a bird wing and fishing pole. You'll get him to flash point the wing and then command Woah for him to stay in place. Eventually, he'll get it figured out and that he won't need the command to freeze. The result will be a pointing dog.

Mine is currently also going through this process. Amazing ability and will occationally point at bird but he's not trained to hold it for very long.

[ezzy333]

I would not recommend ever using whoa for a pup just finding it's first birds. Whoa and pointing are two completely different things to a dog. And the wing on the string is great to paly with for a little pup to see it point when it is really small. But all you are teaching the pup is to stop when it see something you are swinging around when you decide to stop the movement. We want the pup to smell and point which will happen when the pup is ready and decides it can't catch the bird if it doesn't stop.

It's the way pups learn naturally and that is what you want.

Ezzy

[Kiki]

This is pretty normal, just be patient and the wild birds will do a lot of work for you

What should my reaction be to her when she flushes? I don't want to encourage her flushing but I definetly don't want to turn her off on birds. When I see her start gettin birdie I tell her "good girl Kiki, now go find it."

I've read so much about people ruining what could have been a really great gun dog and I really don't want to be in that boat. Thank you for your response. I'll definetly take my time with her and give her as much oppurtunity in the field to learn from the wild birds... eh hem, I meant so Kiki and I can learn.

[Chukar12]

There are two schools out there, one would say that after a dog clearly shows it will point, stop the bird exposure until you are ready to break it. This would mean that you have completed yard work including the word whoa, and you are not dealing with birds, at this point your dog is a year + old and you put it back on birds and no more chasing. The second, more common; and probably realistic because it is easier for the single or small kennel dog owner who wants to do some things with the dog that includes birds, is...let em have all the wild birds you can find. That puppy will not catch the wild birds and it will start being more cautious in its stalk and firm up point eventually.

With all due respect to those that follow Wolter's and Gun Dog, you will find that most trainers consider its content largely antiquated and potentially harmful today. Too much sight work is quite detrimental to a dog you are teaching to point scent. It conditions them to want to see a bird, we don't need that. Let them trust their nose. It sounds like your pup is ground trailing a bit as well. Picking up foot scent and following it into a bird. If you can structure your walks with the wind in your face. It may help with the scent issue. My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.

Best of luck, Joe

[kninebirddog]

This is pretty normal, just be patient and the wild birds will do a lot of work for you

What should my reaction be to her when she flushes? I don't want to encourage her flushing but I definetly don't want to turn her off on birds. When I see her start gettin birdie I tell her "good girl Kiki, now go find it."

I've read so much about people ruining what could have been a really great gun dog and I really don't want to be in that boat. Thank you for your response. I'll definetly take my time with her and give her as much oppurtunity in the field to learn from the wild birds... eh hem, I meant so Kiki and I can learn.

Stop talking to your dog..If your dog is showing interest and you start jabbering the dog loses focus on what it was doing and turns to you to see what you want they do not understand the coaxing coddling human nature it will only further her being more cautious. Let the dog figure it out let her learn for her self if she gets to close the bird flies off let her chase right now and then walk a different direction see if she will give up the chase and go with you in the field by simply calling out where she hears your voice going the other direction and she should come around and go with you........Silence is golden/ Duct Tape is silver on the birds let yous voice be the guidance of direction when needed..I will sing out come around for my young dogs so they know I have headed another way...the pups should come around thinking and hunting for more excitement a head

[AzDoggin]

There is some good stuff in this thread.

At 4 months, your dog is doing what she should do - learning to love being around birds. Eventually, her heritage will kick in and she'll notice that she can prolong the exposure to birds by slowing up a little - eventually to a point.

Right now, she's learning EXACTLY what you want -

1. Birds are alot of fun
2. It's ok to run out front and search - my master is always around
3. I can't catch those dang birds
4. I have to try over and over to catch them before I will deeply understand #3

Mo Lindley has a phrase that eventually will apply - "The bird says 'whoa.'"

If that dog were mine, I'd keep taking her into wild birds as much as you can at this stage (with yer yap shut - agree Knine). Man, you are lucky to have that resource - not everyone has the amount of wild birds that you seem to. One of these times, you will be amazed - that dog of yours will come slamming into the most beautiful point on the planet, and you'll think "finally!!"

[gonehuntin']

If you want me to come over to Hawaii and help you with that poor put, just give a yell!

[mudhunter]

Ill throw out a little different take on the situation, this is what I would do. Once a dog learns how to find birds and use its nose I like to take it off of birds. Run her where their are no birds and teach her to work with you and stay out front, work on recall and just make her handle. When the dog is ready for to take some pressure I would break it on pen raised birds, typically around a year but it truly depends on the dog. Then bring it back on the wild birds.

Too much time busting and chasing wild birds will make some dogs tough to break. A puppy that was not allowed to chase and bump a lot, other than to get it fired up and learn about birds and its nose, will generally break out quick and with less pressure.

This is just the approach I like to take, just seems to work best for me, certainly not the only way.

[Kiki]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the great answers. I'm not to sure where to go from here because everyone isn't following or training the same way, however even contrasting methods have valid points. I guess I'll start by keepin my mouth shut when we're out walkin. I'll need to digest the posts more to extract more info so I can hopefully make my newest hunting buddy the best darn dog she can be. Thanks again!

[4dabirds]

There are two schools out there, one would say that after a dog clearly shows it will point, stop the bird exposure until you are ready to break it. This would mean that you have completed yard work including the word whoa, and you are not dealing with birds, at this point your dog is a year + old and you put it back on birds and no more chasing. The second, more common; and probably realistic because it is easier for the single or small kennel dog owner who wants to do some things with the dog that includes birds, is...let em have all the wild birds you can find. That puppy will not catch the wild birds and it will start being more cautious in its stalk and firm up point eventually.

With all due respect to those that follow Wolter's and Gun Dog, you will find that most trainers consider its content largely antiquated and potentially harmful today. Too much sight work is quite detrimental to a dog you are teaching to point scent. It conditions them to want to see a bird, we don't need that. Let them trust their nose. It sounds like your pup is ground trailing a bit as well. Picking up foot scent and following it into a bird. If you can structure your walks with the wind in your face. It may help with the scent issue. My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.

Best of luck, Joe

could not have said it better I think it was your intuition that came up with"too much wild bird exposure" I would stick with it. Desire is bred into a dog . What you let your dog do you are training it to do.

[Kiki]

If that dog were mine, I'd keep taking her into wild birds as much as you can at this stage (with yer yap shut - agree Knine). Man, you are lucky to have that resource - not everyone has the amount of wild birds that you seem to. One of these times, you will be amazed - that dog of yours will come slamming into the most beautiful point on the planet, and you'll think "finally!!"

You'd be suprised the types of places I take her to run. We have a lot of sugarcane fields and pineapple fields that have a lot of black and brown francolin and some pheasant. Not too much acerage in any 1 field, about an hours walk including down time for pup to rest would be the largest. The biggest downside is that there aren't too many legal places set aside for bird hunting here. There are lots of birds every where but not in the designated hunting areas. I get envious watching shows on Versus and the likes and see the types of birds and acerages folks on the mainland get to hunt. Hawaii, Maui in particular isn't a bird hunters paradise.

As for seeing her lock up on point. I know I'll definetly be speechless, and I'll owe it in part to the members of this forum. Thank you!

[AzDoggin]

There are two schools out there, one would say that after a dog clearly shows it will point, stop the bird exposure until you are ready to break it. This would mean that you have completed yard work including the word whoa, and you are not dealing with birds, at this point your dog is a year + old and you put it back on birds and no more chasing. The second, more common; and probably realistic because it is easier for the single or small kennel dog owner who wants to do some things with the dog that includes birds, is...let em have all the wild birds you can find. That puppy will not catch the wild birds and it will start being more cautious in its stalk and firm up point eventually.

Joe, I just re-read your post and have to say there is some serious wisdom there, my friend. You did play a fairly neutral hand, though. If you could choose either of the methods that you describe above with a 4 month old pup (you had all the resources, all the time, etc.) which approach would YOU take? Depends on characteristics of the dog? If so which approach for what characteristics?

Would you say there are differences in "hunting style" in dogs trained in one of these methods versus the other?

[AzDoggin]

You'd be suprised the types of places I take her to run. We have a lot of sugarcane fields and pineapple fields that have a lot of black and brown francolin and some pheasant. Not too much acerage in any 1 field, about an hours walk including down time for pup to rest would be the largest. The biggest downside is that there aren't too many legal places set aside for bird hunting here. There are lots of birds every where but not in the designated hunting areas. I get envious watching shows on Versus and the likes and see the types of birds and acerages folks on the mainland get to hunt. Hawaii, Maui in particular isn't a bird hunters paradise.!

Kiki, we are gonna require pictures to verify all this, you know! For all we know, you posting from North Texas

You might want to start doing some volunteer work on the farms where you are seeing lots of birds. At least start some relationships going - sounds like you're going to need them.

[Chukar12]

Doggin,

If there is any wisdom in my comments it is this:

My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs

However, I will play along. It was neutral because I believe that dogs to most of us are an escape and should be enjoyed at whatever level the individual chooses. Too often our collective lack of recognition in this leads to the arguments that feed this forum... of field trial v hunting. Now what do I believe with my limited experience in the field compared to some that will read this...?

The best performing dog to field trial standards will have limited opportunities to chase birds. It will cement something in them that has to be removed later. Amateurs will largely do the removing with a heavy hand or lots of current if they want a dog steady to fall, and the dog will show that. A dog that has had field exposure and limted bird contact until broke if bred well, will in a sense catch up in its bird sense and seeking of objectives in the second season.

A derby dog handled in the more natural sense will seem to be a super star compared to the dog above and then go through a sophomore slump, especially if a trainer or handler pushes them hard to be steady and their reenforcement has been otherwise until the day the boss decides they gotta be broke. I do believe most of these problems are for dogs expected to be steady to trial standards, a dog that breaks on the shot does not require a great deal of finesse training in my opinion and is not a lesser dog if that is what best suits the owners needs.

let's see how much controvery you have caused Doggin...

[AzDoggin]

let's see how much controvery you have caused Doggin...

on behalf of one member - thank you for stepping out there and taking a stab at it, Joe. That's the sort of information that makes this board a great place.

I will be very unhappy if you get grief over just posting a well-informed opinion. I understand the hesitance to put it out there - hopefully you have a decent helmet with a chinstrap I have seen how it can get sometimes, though.

It really all does come down having a partnership with the dog, and engaging in activities that give you and the dog some fulfillment in the end. I could not agree more. I've been through that "sophomore slump" with my last Britt trained with lots of wild bird exposure. She worked her way out of it, and I cussed her more than I wanted to (we were both young). Turned into a fine dog by my standards, but I know what you meant.

In a way, maybe it helps to "start with the end in mind?" Decide what activities that are most important to you and your dog, and then arrange the training to meet the goals, I guess. Pretty hard to do that for 1st timers staring into the pretty eyes of an 8 week old pup though.

Maybe our first question to the new owners should be "what are your goals for the pup, what activities are you planning?"

It's all good. Oh - one of the videos? ESSENTIAL if you are training by yourself.

[Kiki]

There are two schools out there, one would say that after a dog clearly shows it will point, stop the bird exposure until you are ready to break it. This would mean that you have completed yard work including the word whoa, and you are not dealing with birds, at this point your dog is a year + old and you put it back on birds and no more chasing. The second, more common; and probably realistic because it is easier for the single or small kennel dog owner who wants to do some things with the dog that includes birds, is...let em have all the wild birds you can find. That puppy will not catch the wild birds and it will start being more cautious in its stalk and firm up point eventually.

With all due respect to those that follow Wolter's and Gun Dog, you will find that most trainers consider its content largely antiquated and potentially harmful today. Too much sight work is quite detrimental to a dog you are teaching to point scent. It conditions them to want to see a bird, we don't need that. Let them trust their nose. It sounds like your pup is ground trailing a bit as well. Picking up foot scent and following it into a bird. If you can structure your walks with the wind in your face. It may help with the scent issue. My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.Best of luck, Joe

Thanks Joe! I actually have 2 dvds from George Hickox: Great Beginnings and Training Pointing Dogs. And because of a recomendation in another thread I got the 2 set dvd from Perfection ( didn't come in yet ). Good to know both George and Perfection came with recommendations. I've been useing Georges method for my yard work. I think I know whats coming next. Don't confuse myself with too many methods.

[birddogger]

He is only 4 mos. old. You have already accomplished the first important step by getting him bird crazy. Take him off the wild birds for now and in a couple of months start serious yard work. Work him on pigeons and/or pen raised birds where you have control over the situation. Then back to wild birds. A lot of dogs will pretty much break them selves on wild birds, while others never do. Don't take the chance of him developing bad habits which will cause more time and work later on. I agree with Joe on the dvds. Decide on the method that suits you the best and follow it from beginning to end. BTW, I have always taught the whoa command and used it once the dog established a point.

Charlie

[helpful_cub]

My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.

I just checked Amazon and it wasn't very helpful. Huntsmith's video's are sold out and there's no reference to Hickox or Perfection for dog training. Are these serious trainers that a publisher would pick up or just a current fad? I have no problem investing in my dog but this advice seems to lead to a dead end. Thank you for the information though, maybe someone found more out about these trainers.

[kninebirddog]

My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.

I just checked Amazon and it wasn't very helpful. Huntsmith's video's are sold out and there's no reference to Hickox or Perfection for dog training. Are these serious trainers that a publisher would pick up or just a current fad? I have no problem investing in my dog but this advice seems to lead to a dead end. Thank you for the information though, maybe someone found more out about these trainers.

Rick Smith is a very well known trainer used to be one of the top handler trainers his Dad is Delmar Smith Both are Hall of Fame Rick in the Brittany world and His dad HOF in the pointer and Brittany world

George is also well known getting more so

perfect start has been around for years also

West Method is also another very well respected method in the bird dog world

So none of these are a current Fad specially the Rick they have been around for decades...Rick no longer trains per say as he goes around doing seminars helping people train their dogs he took over when he Dad Delmar semi retired.

www.huntsmith.com you can find out a little more about Rick and his cousin Ronnie
try googling the others instead of trying to find information on amazon

[GUNDOGS]

If you have Netflix rent the movie "Gun dog". It talks about how to train your pointer. The instinct to point is defently there you just need to teach him the "woah" command. After that you can start working with him on a bird wing and fishing pole. You'll get him to flash point the wing and then command Woah for him to stay in place. Eventually, he'll get it figured out and that he won't need the command to freeze. The result will be a pointing dog.

Mine is currently also going through this process. Amazing ability and will occationally point at bird but he's not trained to hold it for very long.

This is what we do as well..we teach whoa immediately when we bring a pup home and its good to have controlled training sessions with pigeons and put her on a check cord...if you have had her on wild birds for months and shes still flushing that often you need more controlled training sessions to correct it..do you shoot the birds she is flushing and chasing?..if you shoot birds she is flushing and chasing she will become a flusher quick...heres what we do..put the dog on the checkcord and release a pigeon while you stand beside her throwing it in front of her (you can put her on a barrel tipped on its side if you have access to one thats what we use), when she hears the wings of the pigeon flapping and goes to pull away to chase thats when you give her a pull on the check cord and whoa her..do this with a few birds each day and she will learn that birds flying means whoa and wont chase..we also use wing on a string for training to practice whoa although its used usually on younger pups starting out give it a try.....ruth

[AzDoggin]

My last bit of free advice is to spend money either at Huntsmith, Hickox or Perfection and follow one of their programs.

I just checked Amazon and it wasn't very helpful. Huntsmith's video's are sold out and there's no reference to Hickox or Perfection for dog training. Are these serious trainers that a publisher would pick up or just a current fad? I have no problem investing in my dog but this advice seems to lead to a dead end.

Haha current fad - that's really funny. It's such a fad that Bill West has passed of old age, Bill Gibbons is mostly retired, as is Delmar Smith. Most of these old boys have lived their lives training dogs and have left it to the next generation to tell about it. Trust me, there was no Amazon.com even thought of when these guys were training kennels full of bird dogs. That said, the information is scattered about some, and as Knine said you have to dig a little for it and it's not on Amazon. Heck I've got some time to kill before breakfast this morning, I'll post a few links...

The other thing about dog training is that I think most feel that "hands on" is by far the best method to learn. The truest way to get "hands on" knowledge is to either train with a hunt club, or take your dog to a seminar for training. Next best for the diy'er is probably a DVD in which you can see timing, inflection, positioning, etc, that can't really be written about in books very effectively. Here's a few links to get you started:

There isn’t a real big market for bird dog training technique books. No publisher is interested in selling books to a few measly hundred customers or maybe thousand. The book featuring Delmar Smith (a classic!) entitled Best Way to Train your Gun Dog by Bill Tarrant is out of print. It was published in the mid-70’s I think. Huntsmith might have a few copies: http://www.huntsmith.com/shop/dsbook.html

DVD’s and seminars for Perfect Start/Perfect finish: http://www.perfectionkennel.com/video_series.htm

Here are a few links for the West/Gibbons method:

Mo Lindley: http://www.steadywithstyle.com/content/ ... ins-po-r13

Mo also moderates a yahoo group (email) for the West/Gibbons method for discussion: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pointingdogs/

Dave Walker is a West/Gibbons disciple: http://www.davewalkerdogs.com/the-bird- ... manual.htm as is
Brad Higgins: http://www.higginsgundogs.com/trainingl ... otrain.htm

Bill Gibbons still gives seminars too: http://www.magmabirddogs.com/seminars.html

Knine gave you the www.Huntsmith.com website. The Smith seminars are reportedly OUTSTANDING, and Rick travels all over the country delivering them.

George Hickox is in Pennsylvania, but he also has some good DVD’s and reportedly puts on an excellent seminar. His website is: http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... x_dvd.html

[rkappes]

There is some good stuff in this thread.

At 4 months, your dog is doing what she should do - learning to love being around birds. Eventually, her heritage will kick in and she'll notice that she can prolong the exposure to birds by slowing up a little - eventually to a point.

Right now, she's learning EXACTLY what you want -

1. Birds are alot of fun
2. It's ok to run out front and search - my master is always around
3. I can't catch those dang birds
4. I have to try over and over to catch them before I will deeply understand #3

Mo Lindley has a phrase that eventually will apply - "The bird says 'whoa.'"

If that dog were mine, I'd keep taking her into wild birds as much as you can at this stage (with yer yap shut - agree Knine). Man, you are lucky to have that resource - not everyone has the amount of wild birds that you seem to. One of these times, you will be amazed - that dog of yours will come slamming into the most beautiful point on the planet, and you'll think "finally!!"

AzDoggin ~ This is great advice! I agree 100%!

[AzDoggin]

After more thinking on this topic, one truism really stands out to me: there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I've been reading a book about hunting in Arizona - title Wingshooters Guide to Arizona: Upland Birds and Waterfowl by William "Web" Parton, copyright 1996, Wilderness Adventures Press.

Anyway read this section (page 23):

Much of what is considered "normal" dog work is counterproductive with Gambel's quail. Polished manners, such as holding steady to shot and not relocating until released , are detrimental in Gambel's cover. A great Gambel's dog bumps running coveys with the daring of Errol Flynn flashing a sword. He catwalks with impunity, his right eye roving for runners and his leaft ear cocked, listening for their scurrying. And then, when the birds cooperate, he does everything right. The partnership of gunner and dog transcends control with Gambel's quail hunting...The dog decides that a lot of the high points of training are counterproductive. A dog that isn't allowed to abandon a point and relocate is going to spend most of his time stopped, while the quail will spend all of their time running. A good dog can differentiate between a covey that will hold and one that won't. If a cautious approach won't hold bird the birds, the most productive thing a dog can do is run in and flush so that they aren't able to leave as one group. The dog learns that scattered birds can be worked as singles....All this can make for a pretty wild dog. In gambel's hunting, there is a wide latitude of acceptable behavior. A hunter has to trust the dog to make the right decisions...

Obviously, these conditions are far different than, for example, hunting planted bobs on a preserve. At some point if the dog is going to hunt wild, running birds, the dog needs to spend enough time afield learning how the birds behave to be able to "compete" with them. Of course, there is still the question of when is the ideal time for this learning to happen - as a pup in the first year, or after the dog has been "broken" as a young adult.

[kensfishing]

I had a old female named Wilma that hunted Gambels for years. She knew just how far she could push a covey. When she went on point it was money in the bank. She was smart and good. She was one of the best pheasant dogs I ever hunted over also. She pasted those traits down to her pups also. A great dog.

[AzDoggin]

I've been reading about GWP's recently and was looking at Chuck Johnson's website (Hunhaven Kennels in Montana). Chuck is the author of Training the Versatile Hunting Dog, and he is also the versatile dog editor of Pointing Dog Journal. Here's his website: http://www.hunhaven.com/index.php

Anyway, I was reading the testamonials of folks who had purchased a pup from Chuck, and came across this:

Tom Lally, a hunter from Washington State, bought a male puppy from me a few years ago. Tom hadn’t had a bird dog for over twenty years. He admitted that he didn’t know much about training a dog. I advised him to do four things for his young pup. Bring him into the family, continue the socialization that we started, and bond with him. Finally, get him out into the wild bird field and put him into as many wild birds as possible. Don’t worry about him making mistakes. Let him learn and have fun. Tom followed my advice. He took his puppy, Yogi, everywhere with him. He had Yogi in the house every day, playing and spending time with his family. Tom and his young son took Yogi out hunting every weekend during hunting season. They did not expect a finished dog the first season. They were patient and allowed Yogi to explore, learning how to search and find birds. Yes, Yogi made mistakes; he flushed birds, chased them, and did all the other transgressions of youth. However, each hunt Yogi got better, he gained more confidence and started to figure out how to find and handle wild birds. He was having fun. Right after Thanksgiving I got an e-mail from Tom:

“Hi Chuck and Blanche - Yogi grew up today and am I ever relieved. My son and I went hunting a river bottom area and Yogi searched the area and found and pointed five pheasants. He retrieved the three pheasants that we hit. One of them was wounded and he had to track the bird for a good ten minutes before he found it. He retrieved the live bird to hand. The area was a public hunting spot and the birds had been pushed frequently so they didn’t hold very long, but Yogi did all of the work himself. I thought I would share that bit of Thanksgiving news with you. I know that you know, but Yogi just turned six months old yesterday. For six months old I think he is fantastic.”--Tom Lally

[Chukar12]

AD,

In both the examples you provide we see the fruits of selective breeding and exposure. Many of the finest moments with a gun dog are a product of nothing more than the finest moments in any relationship arent they? Just spending time together and sharing an interest...I would argue that it isn't training however. I am not sure anyone is good enough to teach a dog to cock its ear and keep one eye on a quail. You said it best, we must decide on purpose to know what path is best in our own dog's development.

And hey Kiki,

What is this called? It is a game bird that I see all over Maui in the cane, beside the golf courses, its everywhere. Somebody called it a chukar but it isnt...it is some kind of partridge though...do you know?

[AzDoggin]

AD,

In both the examples you provide we see the fruits of selective breeding and exposure. Many of the finest moments with a gun dog are a product of nothing more than the finest moments in any relationship arent they? Just spending time together and sharing an interest...I would argue that it isn't training however. I am not sure anyone is good enough to teach a dog to cock its ear and keep one eye on a quail. You said it best, we must decide on purpose to know what path is best in our own dog's development.

Agree, not training by the human... but teaching by the birds?

Authors like Chuck Johnson and Ben Williams advocate keeping dogs in wild birds as much as possible during that first year with little handler intervention. It should be noted, though, that they are discussing training a dog for hunting wild birds, not training a dog for competition purposes. Also true in Williams' case is that he hunts his pups with experienced dogs. What is never stated and may well be true is that the dogs these guys are raising are some pretty special animals. It may be possible that the same methods are less effective with dogs that are less well-bred.

[4dabirds]

Great thread here I would just like to throw another log on the fire. If we breed for pointing and great bird desire why do we need to build on something that is part of the dogs physical makeup? If a dog learns that every time it scents a bird or sees one it has to stand still, as a puppy and therefore the sight of the bird becomes the reward, how will this inhibit the dogs physical predisposition to seek out and find birds? Barring any mistakes made that may cause the dog to blink such as using an e-collar incorrectly , waiting until the dog is under control of the trainer to allow it to hunt on its own will not diminish its desire. This leaves us with the question of whether we want our dog to be in our control at all times or if the dog hunting on the dogs terms is good enough. Certainly allowing the dog to chase as a pup will get the dog hunting sooner but waiting until you have full control will not stop the dog from learning to hunt later. Then there is the case for steady to wing and shot with a trained retrieve.There are a multitude of reasons for being a proponent of this so I am going to open a new thread to see what others think about it.

[AzDoggin]

Certainly allowing the dog to chase as a pup will get the dog hunting sooner but waiting until you have full control will not stop the dog from learning to hunt later.

Agree good thread, and agree you've framed the question very well!! I will be interested to see how the thread goes - heck, I might see you over there. I wonder if you should specify the purpose of your training efforts - training a dog to hunt wild birds versus training for trialing?

Nice to have a place where we can throw these things out there. Nice that the pro's who have trained a gazillion dogs are tolerant enough to tolerate some of these, too. Mostly talking bird dogs just never gets old.

[Kiki]

What is this called? It is a game bird that I see all over Maui in the cane, beside the golf courses, its everywhere. Somebody called it a chukar but it isnt...it is some kind of partridge though...do you know?

That's a brown francolin. You've been to Maui? As you noticed we have tons of them here. That's 1 of the game birds we hunt here. We have a lot of black francolin too.

Thanks everyone for all the great in put on the subject. I've just been lurking trying to digest all the great insight. Unfortunetly it's all still clear as mud.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Kiki,
We train Grouse dogs all the time, and train 90% on wild birds. IMO there is no such thing as to much wild bird contact, the more the better, and from as young an age as you can make it happen.
RGD/Dave

Heston our latest Ryman Setter locking up on his 1st Grouse @ 12 weeks of age, the Grouse is hidden at the far end of the log, between the log and the big rock.

[Elkhunter]

There is no such thing as too much exposure IMO. A dog learns so much about being a bird dog by being out there finding them, I know alot of people take a dog off birds as soon as they point so they can break them. I feel a dog needs to learn how to find birds, learn how to run and handle the terrain its going to be working in. I do one good solid season of bird hunting then focus on breaking them. JMO

[Kiki]

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge with me. Here's an update. I still haven't decided which school to follow the let the wild birds teach her what she needs to know or take her off wild birds and continue to introduce birds in a more controlled setting. I am in the process of building 4 remote bird launchers,during this time I will continue to take her on her weekly romps in birdy areas.

Here's what happened this week. I took her out twice and let me tell you what a difference a week makes. I can definetly see a point coming thru. She still busts into the birds but now she holds a point for at least 10 seconds up to 45 seconds or so. I'm hoping this will extend as she gains more experience and I begin to shoot over her. The differences I've seen came in way of her point and her bird finding abilities. She's almost 4 months now but she finds and tracks birds better than a lot of the adult dogs I've seen that only see birds during the hunting season. I'm sure taking her out in the field 2 times a week since she was 10 weeks old made the difference. She is sooo bird crazy, I just love it. She tracked several running francolin cocks yesterday and in some cases I thought uh oh she's got to be off, but I made sure to keep my mouth shut and let her see it thru. To my amazement she was on the money.

She's got other issues like sometimes bolting off when she's on scent and flagging when she's on point but I'm guessing it's too early for me to worry about them. If anyone wants to chime in on those issues, I am all ears mouth shut.

We continue to do yardwork almost on a daily basis (George Hickox clicker). When I get done with the bird launchers I was thinking about blending George Hickox methods and the way he uses bird launchers with the Magic brushpile.

Again, thanks everyone for your sharing your knowlege.

[AzDoggin]

The differences I've seen came in way of her point and her bird finding abilities. She's almost 4 months now but she finds and tracks birds better than a lot of the adult dogs I've seen that only see birds during the hunting season. I'm sure taking her out in the field 2 times a week since she was 10 weeks old made the difference. She is sooo bird crazy, I just love it. She tracked several running francolin cocks yesterday and in some cases I thought uh oh she's got to be off, but I made sure to keep my mouth shut and let her see it thru. To my amazement she was on the money.

Wow, sounds to me like you have a pretty special hunting partner in the making there, and there is no way a human could have taught her all those skills. I always go back to an old Delmar Smithism "Give your pup that first year, and she'll hunt for you the rest of her life."

Good work, Kiki. Man I'm jealous of all that wild game you have. Regardless of which direction you decide to go from here (and there is no wrong answer, really, just different approaches) you have laid an awfully good foundation. Not many folks have the privilege of so many wild birds to stoke the fires in a young pup.

Pictures, my friend. We still require PICTURES!

[birddogger]

Good work, Kiki. Man I'm jealous of all that wild game you have. Regardless of which direction you decide to go from here (and there is no wrong answer, really, just different approaches) you have laid an awfully good foundation. Not many folks have the privilege of so many wild birds to stoke the fires in a young pup.

Pictures, my friend. We still require PICTURES!

+1

Charlie

[Kiki]

There's a bunch of birds to train on in non designated hunting areas. It's like that saying, "water water everywhere but not a drop to drink." She'll probably see more birds during 1 training session than she'll see in a whole hunting season while in the designated hunting areas.

I'll try to get some pics next time we go out.