Flagging

[owen]

I have a two year old GSP male that is flagging on point. I've worked with flaggers before and usually with time, age, birds and confidence it minimizes or disappears completely. I thought he would have made more improvement by this age than he has. He is not intimidated. He is very bold, takes correction well and has extreme prey drive. He is terrific in every way except this flagging. Interestingly, when he is able to sight a bird he is rock solid with a 12o'clock tail. He only flags on scent pointed birds. Maybe I'm being impatient and he needs more time/birds. Just curious if anyone has anything in their bag of tricks that may be worth trying.

[kninebirddog]

The tail sounds like it is telling you what the mind wants to do

the dog knows that he must point and be still but the mind wants to get that bird and the only thing left to move is the tail

There are things one can try to stop it...but with some dogs it can lead to blinking

[Dave Quindt]

What's the breeding on the dog?

[original mngsp]

Good question Dave. Sounds a lot like a dog that I knew.

[owen]

He goes back to Rockin' Rollin' Billy. What lines are you suspecting?

[highcotton]

There are things one can try to stop it...but with some dogs it can lead to blinking

K9 I would like to hear more about those things.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Has nothing to do with his lineage. The dog is either bored, is being or has been talked to on point, has had too many birds, has a less than sufficient nose, has been corrected on pen birds, has caught a bunch of birds, doesn't trust his own nose, or a combination of several factors. Take him off birds for a few months and he should be OK.

[tailcrackin]

Ok, lets study this a little bit, so dogs broke, solid on sight, wanting to break on scent......if you have done the foundation, let it take them out.....he is wanting to bust in there anyway. Its saying that it knows more than you, and wont do because it wants to be safe....its moving every part of the body but the feet, so its doing the job taught ( sorta ). Go over an tap for the release, he wants to take em out.....let him take em!! Then make the correction, for the steady to flush part of the training.......what the dog had for a correction, for the elimination of the chase. Thanks, Jonesy

[mountaindogs]

The bloodline Q, to me anyway, would help you know wether is is a slow maturing line or not...

As to the fact that the dog wants to break - without seeing it I could be very wrong but initially I disagree. If your dog is rock solid when it sees the bird and weak when it just scents the bird I think he is not confident that he KNOWS where that bird is and if it is a real bird, old scent, or what. My big Q's would be are you working pen raised birds, if so, do you touch the birds with your hands when you plant them and how long do the birds sit before you work the dog in them?

I think he is not 100% sure. I would try making sure the scent cone was very good and trying to give the dog more exposure on the scent only. I am sure some will disagree but I read this in an old book and I liked it. For young dogs they planted the bird then took quail scent and created a bigger scent cone heading down wind with 3 drops of scent in a triangle away from the bird. I tried this with a dog that was getting right up on his birds and it helped a lot. I only used it for afew birds then backed down to 1 drop downwind the next session, then none and he did start scenting those birds further off. He could smell em far off before, but wasn't confident that he was smelling a real bird and kept moving in too tight. A hazard I think of hunt tests, preserves and such where birds are planted and move and old scent is all over the place. Dogs have to learn about how much scent means what, and if you plant a bird then go right back with a dog 5 minutes later, you have not left much time for scent to collect around that bird. A thought.

[kninebirddog]

Jonesy explained one of the ways ....on taking the chase out

many people get tricked in to reloacteding a dog on a bird that the dog knows is there...I have seen this quite a few times..Where teh dog ahs the owner trained if i flagg i get the release to get close

I dog that is not sure where the bird is ..loo at the head see if they are trying to wind the bird they will be moving the head a bit trying to find the smell versus the head and eyes fixed to an area where the bird is

some dogs that have figured that out when you go taking the chase out...many will start to striaghten up a bit but ..there are some dogs that are so fixed on getting that bird that even on take the chase out they get over handled eother by check cord e collar etc

another method is via the whoa post teaching a point of contact instilling that that point of contact means to stand still and until the dog is completely compliant about standing still with the flank point of contact in the yard work stick with it...once done then go back in the field for the taking the chase out ..then when cued on the chase it is less about any correction related to the bird and more about the taught cue for standing still.

one thing some people need to assess when or more important before going through all this... What is important about taking the flagging out are you going to trial? cause if you are generally these dog have a much more inclined tendancy to go back to flagging with the added pressures of trialing the excitment etc

another thing that will brng up flagging is over handling....I know a guy that had his young dog trianed by the breeder.. when she came back she was nice...then this guy started to hang around this so called trainer who is no just hands on but pick up set back and is actually very high pressure type training..he has plenty of bad sessions do to his methods well point is the more the guy listened to this other trainer the dog started to flag and get a bit loose and now he is hanging around yet another trainer and well if the dog could just flag a little faster the judges wouldn't be able to see it

there are quite a few things which can lead to flagging...it can also be a trait which can make the more suseptable to flagging then another and dogs like that the more you mess with it the worse it gets and the more frustrated you get the worse it can get also
If it is just hunting and enjoyment ...I would back off and just hunt the dog take the pressures off ...

[ddshine]

WILD BIRDS...WILD BIRDS

[tailcrackin]

Its not so much on taking the chase out. You give it the option of tightening up, or bumping the birds, possibly even questioning its nose...its already past the chase elimination point, because its now "broke". But what I see and deal with more, its wanting to bust in there so bad it can taste...but it knows what will happen on the mistake it makes. So in this situation, you help the dog to learn what to do and what not to do.....more down the alley of polishing the dog, or start of. You now get to test what has been done prior in the workouts. How broke is the dog? This situation, green. He is showing whats on its mind...by flagging.....again....moving everything but its feet.....so in its mind, its safe because feet arent moving. Nothing will happen to it, or the bird in this situation. This is a common matter on a dog broke out to quick, they havent had time or training situations, to help finish the work.
Nothing to do with whoa...dog should be pointing an holding...not us, thats what we been spending time training for.
wild birds ???....dogs having hard time handling the pen birds...what makes you feel that it will be able to work with the wild birds better? What should he do if the state doesnt allow, or he hasnt got any access to? All just something to think about, Thanks Jonesy

[KY Grouse Hunter]

Agreed.

[ddshine]

wild birds ???....dogs having hard time handling the pen birds...what makes you feel that it will be able to work with the wild birds better? What should he do if the state doesnt allow, or he hasnt got any access to? All just something to think about, Thanks Jonesy

training on just pen raised birds could cause this problem also...how many times has the dog seen a bird in the same place. I agree that the dog was probably not ready to be broke.

[remmy]

How many times a week are you working the dog? How many birds? Trueblu said it best...give the dog a break with the birds, although, a few months sounds a little too long.

There was an article in the PDJ this past issue about pro tips. One was about hard headed dogs and flagging as one issue. The pro says to give a few days rest off of birds.

I say a little more than a few days so maybe find a happy median somewhere in between.

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Remmy, a few months ain't gonna happen. You tell someone a few months and they take the dog off birds for two weeks. You tell them a month and it's one week. You tell them a week and it's a day.

I wouldn't think of using bottled scent as was suggested. The dog is confused and bottled scent ain't scent.

[owen]

OK guys. You've given me some things to think about. I would like to give you all some more to think about by responding to some of the unanswered questions you have posed in this puzzle.
First, I too believe he wants to get closer, but being broke he is not moving his feet. There IS a difference in the degree of flagging depending on how he hits his point and if he stops in the cone or not. He flags more with less scent. If he hits close and right in the cone the flagging is less and will stop upon my approach and during a flush attempt.
This dog had no birds from Jan. til April and came into the training field flagging just like last fall. I train on pen raised quail, but I train in 300 acre fields and birds are never in exactly the same place. He's only been on birds twice a week for the past 3 weeks.
He's never taken a bird out. He has a truely exceptional nose. He wasn't broke til about 14-15 months and was very bold and a quick study. Not soft, not intimidated. I start/train about 4 or 5 dogs a year and this is without a doubt the most intelligent dog I have trained in the past 10 years. He took a trial placement in NSTRA this spring. Super ground coverage, obedience, very high retrieve scores, but of course gets cut some for his flagging on his finds.
This is not a developed problem, but something he has always done. I have seen it before in young dogs and felt with more time and confidence he would improve. He has not.
Because of his bold and agressive attitude I am inclined/tempted to set him up to bump/take out a few birds and correct him harshly. Maybe he needs to be a little intimidated/shut down on a few birds. I have not allowed this to happen.
I really appreciate you all taking the time to offer advice. I've been handling/training shorthairs for 44 years but I learn something new all the time. Always willing to add to the bag of tricks.

[Don]

You didn't say what kind of birds your using. If it were me I'd have the dog back in pigeons and I'd be poping them from remote traps befor the dog gets a chance to point them. Once I got the dog to stop flagging I'd then start relocating it into the birds but poping them with the dog about 10yds off the bird. I'd also be poping any bird the dog gets close to even if not in the scent cone. At two yrs old, it sounds to me like the dog is tolerating the training setup, change the rules.

[snips]

I don't post much on flagging threads because it is so hard to diagnose, and so hard to fix. If the dog has always done it I would call it genetic. But sometimes there are things that happen thru training that cause it, standing too long, tossing tons of birds with a dog on the table, standing on point while doing different things to test him. If none of this has happened while training and the dog has done it all along as said I would not waste anymore time and move on if you want a competition dog, if you want a wild bird dog I would not worry about it.