hunting dogs at the same time at differnt skill levels

[luke0927]

OK so say you have a fully broke dog would you let it run with someones dog who bust on the flush? Im going to brake my dogs all the way to wing and shot but i see a lot of people who are only hunters letting their dogs run on the flush....if you have a full broke dog and its staying still on the flush and shot but the others are bolting off do you think this effects your dog? I have never ran my dogs with others and was just wondering...

Thanks

[Englishsetterhunter]

i've seen fully broke dogs remain steady not flinching or anything and other dogs retrieve birds shot over them and the broke dogs didnt flinch. it was actually on the latest episode of american gun dog too so you can look at that video if you want. the pointers remained steady while i think cocker spaniels ran out and retrieved birds shot. i think it depends on alot of variables but if the dog really is fully broke it shouldnt move no matter what. but if your in the process of training the dog to be steady other dogs breaking might intice the dog to move.--- just my thoughts

[remmy]

Don't do it. If you want to keep your dog broke then I wouldn't run it with a dog thats breaks after flush. Your dog will start breaking too. Then you will have to break your dog again.

Dogs pick up bad habits (breaking at flush isn't a bad habit if that's what it was trained to do) from other dogs. Too much temptation especially on a young dog.

Are you going to test or trial your dog? Or just hunt? Are you going to run with this other dog while hunting? How often? If you plan on running them together frequently I would suggest only training steady to flush unless you plan on testing or trialing and breaking your dog year after year.

[Don]

I had Lefty in a Gun Dog stake at Ft Lewis years ago and he was on point about 400yds to the front. My brace mates dog came in and took out the bird. Missed it and the bird jumped up and came back down, the dog tried it again. Did it several more times while it's handler ran his horse down to gather up his dog. when he did, he almost ran over Lefty. Lefty jumped sideways out of the way and stopped again. Would I let someone with an unbroke dog run their dog with one of mine? Not a chance! Lefty was exceptional but even he would have only taken so much of that and folded, or so I believe. It's simply to much to ask of a dog.

I'm not even gonna let the pups hunt together this year and both will be green broke. Key word, "green". To ask your dog to overcome another's lack of manners is not a good thing. Neither is asking a green dog to ignor another green dogs mistakes and they will happen.

[luke0927]

I plan to hunt and hunt test my dogs....i have not seen the other peoples dogs yet... I have just been talking to a few local guys that we are going to get together this fall and hunt...I was just wondering i plan on asking how steady their dogs....thats one reason i have not had my dogs run with other dogs yet i want my dog fully finished before having it around others and then only let it run with dogs at the same level or even greater level than them....

[gonehuntin']

You will find, Luke, that the hardest thing about running a trained dog is to keep it trained. If you start running that dog with untrained dogs and untrained people, it won't be trained for long.

[Rick Hall]

I'm thinking it may actually be easier to maintain finished manners if the dog is frequently hunted with unsteady dogs than only occasionally so, as there are more opportunities to condition the dog to that being his routine. Know my commercially hunted dogs, pointing and retrieving, are far more often teamed with breaking (and creeping and point stealing) dogs than with finished ones and, by adulthood, seem to see maintaining their own manners while other dogs do whatever as just another day at the office. (And it would be a very rare day that their manners weren't rewarded with retrieves the breakers failed to mark.)

[larue]

I have done it,in fact it is a finishing training tech when you have a dog very broke and you want to go to the next level.
I ran my old max dog with pups,in training for the invite.I would make him back the pups,after they had ripped birds in front of him.
I was afraid of what I was going to be braced with at the invite,and low and behold max's bracemate did just that,stole a retrieve from max,and then he had to back him,which he did very well.
The reality of trials and tests is that you will have your bracemate do evil things,if you train for them,you will be better off.
Just a note,this is for well broke dogs,as the final touch's on them.

[RayGubernat]

Luke -

I would agree that more often than not, running a fully broke dog with a dog that is not steady will result in that broke dog's performance slipping. By fully broke I mean a dog that has demonstrated over a couple of seasons that it will not creep, will not break at flush or shot(or fall as the case may be).

I would not under any circumstance, run a dog that was not very well broke with an dog that was less, so, because the temptation will probably be too great for the newly broke dog.

What you do when the performance slips will determine what happens with your dog. If you do not shoot, and correct your dog and insist that it maintains its point...you will, in all likelihood, end up with a far more reliably steady dog. If, on the other had, the bird gets shot and the infraction of manners is not corrected...each and every time...you will, in all likelihood, end up with a dog that is less relaibly steady.

As noted by others, putting a dog in a situation where the bracing dog will rip birds can be invaluable training. Some call it "bombproofing". I can tell you that very few things look more impressive than a dog maintaining its composure in the face of a bracemate who races past their solid point, dives in, rips the bird and gives chase. That is what I call "STONE DEAD BROKE".

RayG

[Rick Hall]

I can tell you that very few things look more impressive than a dog maintaining its composure in the face of a bracemate who races past their solid point, dives in, rips the bird and gives chase.

Few of our hunters seem to notice anything but whether birds got shot, Ray. And I'm more apt to hear "Ol' Buster did most of the retrieving!" than kudos for the steady dogs. But it helps get our job done and pleases me.

[RayGubernat]

Rick -

My bad. I was looking at it from a completely different point of view.

I guess you are right. Most hunters may indeed care more about the bird in the bag than the quality of the dog work. I guess it depends on where your focus is.


I do not often think along those lines anymore. Thank you for injecting a balancing point of view.

RayG

PS. It pleases me too.

[Don]

I can tell you that very few things look more impressive than a dog maintaining its composure in the face of a bracemate who races past their solid point, dives in, rips the bird and gives chase.

Few of our hunters seem to notice anything but whether birds got shot, Ray. And I'm more apt to hear "Ol' Buster did most of the retrieving!" than kudos for the steady dogs. But it helps get our job done and pleases me.

Rick,

One thing I've noticed about a lot of people, not all of course, most have never seen a finished dog. I have had meat hunters come out that wanted to see some dogs and without exception, they were all shocked to see what a finished dog does. Someday i'll probably run into the guy that doesn't care. It's not that they don't care as far as I can tell, but they just have never been exposed to it.

I've known a few guy's that guide on preserves and they don't use finished dogs, they claim the sports wouldn't care. Maybe some but I suspect most just don't expect it. I asked a steelhead guide about his trip once. He made up these big well prepared meals on shore, had them waiting when they had floated to them. I asked him why he went to all that trouble and he told me; "anybody can get you into fish, I sell an experience". Well I suspect anybody can take you on a preserve and get you into birds also, how many preserves can show the sport really great dog work from finished dog's. Not many I suspect.

[slistoe]

Guess I will have to go against the crowd and say a broke dog is a broke dog and it doesn't really matter who or what he runs with. But you better be prepared to do the training and hope you have enough dog that it can take it. Not all folks want to do the training and for certain not all dogs are capable of taking the training. If they (both the folks and the dogs) were, everyone would have fully broke dogs and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Don - dogs like Lefty exist in greater numbers than the odd one here or there. I have only seen them at a trial because that is the only place I have ever encountered dog folk who could care to find out if their dog is one of the ones that can do it. It does help set your dog apart from the pack when your bracemate takes out the birds and your dog holds high and proud - unaided.

[Rick Hall]

I have had meat hunters come out that wanted to see some dogs and without exception, they were all shocked to see what a finished dog does. Someday i'll probably run into the guy that doesn't care. It's not that they don't care as far as I can tell, but they just have never been exposed to it.

Don, I only ran our lodge's upland preserve for nine seasons, so maybe if I'd stuck with it longer I'd have gotten to meet one of those shocked by a steady dog guys. Special dog requests were common, but I just don't recall anyone asking for one because he was steady. What they wanted was "that bird finding SOB".

[Don]

I think you misunderstand what I said or maybe I said it wrong. They didn't come out to see broke dogs, simply to look at some dogs. Some would just show up while we were training. Your right, no one ever asked to specifically see a broke dog.