Wing Accident

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:59 pm

Ive been using my fishing pole and a wing to train my V pup. Its been excellent, hes been meshing since I got it out. Sometimes he chases it, I dont think thats a problem yet. Most of the time he'll crouch then point, then move in, crouch then point etc. Here is the issue... I had him working it, he went to grab it and I yanked it so he couldnt get it. Well it caught his head, he yelped to no end. Visually hes ok, no marks, bruises, or anything that I can see. The next day I got it out to see how he would react and he wont go near it. Ill cast it a little ways away and he'll just look at it then if I coax him he'll run and hide between my legs. What are your thoughts?? I think it was a bad time for the incident to happen because hes in his fear period. Do you think it will effect him in any way?? What can be done to break his fear??

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:15 pm

1. Put the wing-on-a-string up permanently. You shouldn't have been messing around with it after the first time you used it to see if he had point.

2. Put the dog up for a while...like a month or two, then come back and ask what to do next.

Sincerely,

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:46 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:1. Put the wing-on-a-string up permanently. You shouldn't have been messing around with it after the first time you used it to see if he had point.

2. Put the dog up for a while...like a month or two, then come back and ask what to do next.

Sincerely,

I only used it 2 days, it happened the second day. Why shouldnt I use the wing-on-a-string anymore??

Today I took him to a wooded campground area that had some trails. We walked the trails for a little while. After like 10 minutes we came up on a open field that had 3 foot high grass, it was perfect. He loved it, he got real birdy a couple times then stopped and went on point. I just waited for a bit and held it out. Then we went in to try and flush what was there. Nothing flushed it was probably long gone, whatever it was. After that we headed back, I left him wanting more like you said. Im still going to continue to take him there, what do you think?? Hes got to explore and get use to that environment. I mean hes a bird dog trapped in the suburb town of Dearborn. But pretty soon if things go right we'll be living in a great hunting area where we can get out and go exploring, hunting, or whatever everyday.

12 Volt Man · Post by **12 Volt Man** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:53 pm

The wing on a string in generally used to test pups to see if they exhibit desire, or pointing instinct. It is also used as a sales technique by folks who would like to sell pups. It is very neat to see small pups showing off a point while they are only 7 to 8 weeks old.

Once you have tested that in a young pup, it is generally best to wait and move on to real birds.

How old is your pup?

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:35 pm

12 Volt Man wrote:The wing on a string in generally used to test pups to see if they exhibit desire, or pointing instinct. It is also used as a sales technique by folks who would like to sell pups. It is very neat to see small pups showing off a point while they are only 7 to 8 weeks old.

Once you have tested that in a young pup, it is generally best to wait and move on to real birds.

How old is your pup?

He just turned 9 weeks Monday, thats when I put him on the wing-on-a-string. Although he pointed a quail wing at 4 1/2 weeks, I got lucky and snapped a pic. I guess I should have stopped there huh. What should I do next?? Ive read on the forum to wait til hes old enough then let him maul a clipped wing bird to build his desire. Greg Jennings says to take him off birds for a while once hes crazy for them. How old is that generally?? My V loves when I get the wings out, I can tell by his body language. But there are quite a few doves and smaller birds in my yard, he ignores them though. You say real birds now ehh, like maybe quail?? I want to hunt pheasent mostly but isnt he kind young for that, right? Someone said he would be fine with 2 older dogs having his back, what do you think??

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:57 pm

U can continue to hunt him on the long grass but dont hunt him in the same spot too often.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:20 am

I never heard of a wing freaking a pup out. You better go REAL slow with this little guy. Those walks are great, you just don`t want much if any cover.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:54 am

U could try just giving him the wing if you really want too but like Greg said give it up and move onto bigger better things. Dont try to rush your pup into hunting he is still young and his mind isnt fully developed.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:01 am

As has already been said put the wing up it proves nothing and can sure nuff lead to a dog wanting to use it's eyes more than it's nose if overdone. At this age IMHO the best thing you can do for pup is take them on the walks like you described in your second post. Let him discover the world without pressure while at the same time learning to go with you and keep track of you.

Snips I have only seen it once but a young ES I had in a few years ago got knocked by the wing as a 6 week old and it freaked her out. She had lost all prey drive and was a real task to break off her blinking of birds. Like I said only once but but it was not at all fun for her or her owner.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:54 pm

fdsjr,

Get a couple of good books and read them cover to cover then read them again. You will be much better off with a game plan.

Join your local NAVHDA chapter, the help will be invaluable, access to training ground,birds, advice, an extra set of hands and most importantly other members experience.

Good Luck

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:22 pm

You say real birds now ehh, like maybe quail?? I want to hunt pheasent mostly but isnt he kind young for that, right? Someone said he would be fine with 2 older dogs having his back, what do you think??

They are talking about taking puppy out for walks and during these walks the pup is sniffing about and learning lots of things about scent whilst having fun a the same time. If pup happens to come across gamebird scent or even a gamebird itself, this is a learning experience too. You can help make this memorable and exciting by your reaction and enjoyment of being involved with what pup is up to.

Just whoa back a bit and remember you have a little baby puppy and there is no need to rush things.
Enjoy yourselves.

Marg

Dave Gowdey · Post by **Dave Gowdey** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:09 am

The wing is one of the most useful training tools there is. Those that discount it haven't used it properly. That's the problem. Like any tool, its effectiveness depends upon the user. Basically, you screwed up big time. In 35 years of training with a wing, I've never hurt a pup with one. Nor have I ever heard of a pup being hurt with one. Now I've heard of two. I guess this proves that even the most harmless tools require some common sense to use.

The first rule of owning a dog is that you agree to keep your dog safe and secure, and physically and mentally healthy. Your pup is nine weeks old!! That means that it is easily hurt or scared. It's barely a toddler. You have to use care at this age to fulfill rule number one. I'm not sure what you were thinking of by hitting your pup in the head with a wing, but you need to see this as a wakeup call and be much more careful in your training. My suggestion to undo the damage you have done is to let the pup have a wing to chew on, and then start working him gradually on the wing as he gets a bit older.

I'd also caution letting a pup this age walk around off of a leash. A pup this age is about a perfect sized meal for any coyote, fox, hawk, bobcat, or owl that comes along. I don't let pups this age romp unsupervised anywhere outside. Normally it is mom that is along to watch them, but if I didn't own the dam - I would keep the pup on a leash. Once the pup gets a bit older, and gets its real teeth, so that it can defend itself - then that's time to let it come along on walks in the woods.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:08 am

Dave, you might explain how you use the wing that it is a great tool. I have had dogs in here for training that they "wore a pole out" on them. They were the hardest dogs to break ever. Immediatly after pointing a bid they want to creep in to see it. Thats my take on it...Maybe you have a more useful way of using it. I used to take a WalMart bag on a pole and get pups pointing just as well as a wing, only to get a few pics, then threw it out.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:27 pm

I would agree, try the wing and pole once and put it away. About the only thing I can see it will teach your dog to do is sight point. He has already displayed his pointing instinct. It will teach him nothing about hunting. He needs confidence, independence and then some pigeons and wild birds when he gets a bit older. I wouldn't rush it, he's a baby at only a couple months old.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:01 pm

If anything get a live quail and tie the wings. Let it run around the yard for a bit then let ur dog out. Suprivise the meeting though and let the pup do as he sees fit with the bird. If he seems scared of it quickly put the bird away and try again in a few months.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:22 pm

Dave Gowdey wrote:The wing is one of the most useful training tools there is. Those that discount it haven't used it properly. That's the problem. Like any tool, its effectiveness depends upon the user. Basically, you screwed up big time. In 35 years of training with a wing, I've never hurt a pup with one. Nor have I ever heard of a pup being hurt with one. Now I've heard of two. I guess this proves that even the most harmless tools require some common sense to use.

The first rule of owning a dog is that you agree to keep your dog safe and secure, and physically and mentally healthy. Your pup is nine weeks old!! That means that it is easily hurt or scared. It's barely a toddler. You have to use care at this age to fulfill rule number one. I'm not sure what you were thinking of by hitting your pup in the head with a wing, but you need to see this as a wakeup call and be much more careful in your training. My suggestion to undo the damage you have done is to let the pup have a wing to chew on, and then start working him gradually on the wing as he gets a bit older.

I'd also caution letting a pup this age walk around off of a leash. A pup this age is about a perfect sized meal for any coyote, fox, hawk, bobcat, or owl that comes along. I don't let pups this age romp unsupervised anywhere outside. Normally it is mom that is along to watch them, but if I didn't own the dam - I would keep the pup on a leash. Once the pup gets a bit older, and gets its real teeth, so that it can defend itself - then that's time to let it come along on walks in the woods.

My pup hasnt been unsupervised since the day I got him, if im not with him someone is. To much can happen its not worth the risk.

I havent had my pup off the leash outside of my yard yet. Im not going to until he listens ALL the time to come. For now im going to use a leash or a check cord.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:14 am

Do you have scary things around you like snakes, coyotes etc?

We are lucky in NZ we don't have them but we have worse in a way - we have A***holes regional councils that put up NO Firearms
signs along riverbeds that we've hunted for years and seen maybe 3 other people there in all that time.

Marg

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:00 pm

fdsjr wrote:
Dave Gowdey wrote:The wing is one of the most useful training tools there is. Those that discount it haven't used it properly. That's the problem. Like any tool, its effectiveness depends upon the user. Basically, you screwed up big time. In 35 years of training with a wing, I've never hurt a pup with one. Nor have I ever heard of a pup being hurt with one. Now I've heard of two. I guess this proves that even the most harmless tools require some common sense to use.

The first rule of owning a dog is that you agree to keep your dog safe and secure, and physically and mentally healthy. Your pup is nine weeks old!! That means that it is easily hurt or scared. It's barely a toddler. You have to use care at this age to fulfill rule number one. I'm not sure what you were thinking of by hitting your pup in the head with a wing, but you need to see this as a wakeup call and be much more careful in your training. My suggestion to undo the damage you have done is to let the pup have a wing to chew on, and then start working him gradually on the wing as he gets a bit older.

I'd also caution letting a pup this age walk around off of a leash. A pup this age is about a perfect sized meal for any coyote, fox, hawk, bobcat, or owl that comes along. I don't let pups this age romp unsupervised anywhere outside. Normally it is mom that is along to watch them, but if I didn't own the dam - I would keep the pup on a leash. Once the pup gets a bit older, and gets its real teeth, so that it can defend itself - then that's time to let it come along on walks in the woods.

My pup hasnt been unsupervised since the day I got him, if im not with him someone is. To much can happen its not worth the risk.

I havent had my pup off the leash outside of my yard yet. Im not going to until he listens ALL the time to come. For now im going to use a leash or a check cord.

Not to come across course here, but buddy you need to give this dog some room! Let this guy find his way in life a bit for himself. I am in the belief that letting this pup take them walks is going to bold this guy and let this guy get some independance. If you are in fear of harm of the pup, pick a better place to let him explore!

Britmandogs · Post by **Britmandogs** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:12 pm

fdsjr wrote: I havent had my pup off the leash outside of my yard yet. Im not going to until he listens ALL the time to come. For now im going to use a leash or a check cord.

Poor dog will never be off the leash

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:59 pm

patience fdsjr. let your 9 1/2 week old puppy be a puppy. don't take him for walks yet, play with him at home. teach him only his name and that you are his buddy. he's way to young to learn much. so be patient

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:04 pm

Britmandogs wrote:
fdsjr wrote: I havent had my pup off the leash outside of my yard yet. Im not going to until he listens ALL the time to come. For now im going to use a leash or a check cord.
Poor dog will never be off the leash

Your saying you let your pup off the leash often??

I live in the city and right now I dont wanna risk him getting hit. Once he listens, id prefer to have him off the leash.

fdsjr · Post by **fdsjr** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:12 pm

llewgor wrote:patience fdsjr. let your 9 1/2 week old puppy be a puppy. don't take him for walks yet, play with him at home. teach him only his name and that you are his buddy. he's way to young to learn much. so be patient

Im not going to begin training until 12 weeks when his brain is fully developed. Then im going to take it slow and play it by year.

Duane M · Post by **Duane M** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:38 pm

Dave I wont get into your preffered method again, we've beat that horse enough. But I will ask again using your way how does a pup learn to actually hunt? BTW I do have another Wolters wonder in ya oughtta see her when ya say whoa even softly, it's truly sad.

Fdsjr yes take the dang leash off the pup plain and simple. I raise between 3 and 5 litters a year and outside the chain gang they are not restrained till they reach about six months of age. Till that time these pups are allowed to run free when we are in the field, sure never had a hawk or such try and take one

. Now if ya want a velcro dog that never ever leaves gun range, meaning a .410 with an IC choke keep the leash on. But if you want a hunting dog let the pup learn to hunt, if he's well bred it will make your work down the road much more pleasurable.

Britmandogs · Post by **Britmandogs** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:14 pm

fdsjr wrote:
Your saying you let your pup off the leash often??

I live in the city and right now I dont wanna risk him getting hit. Once he listens, id prefer to have him off the leash.

I think your getting confused here. No one here is saying let the pup rome the streets of where you live, however you need to take this pup out in the country for short walks. Find a place close to where you live and venture out a few times a week and let the pup run around and discover its world. Make sure the cover isn't to high and don't let the pup run til it is worn out, pick it up after 10 minutes or so.

FYI - I also prefer that you keep your pup on a leash or in a fenced yard at all times if you live in town.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:31 pm

fdsjr

You have a puppy! He will be a puppy for a year or so. Get the leash off of him except to control when you need it and forget training for most of the first year except for normal obedience which I call yard training. But this doesnt mean forget the pup. Go for walks and get the pup into as many new situations as possible so it can figure out what to do and how to do it. Puppies are bred to hunt and your responsibility is to give it the chance to do so. That requires free time in the field investigating and exploring.

What I call formal training can wait for most of the year, depending how much opportunity you have given the pup and how fast it matures. Dogs lives are measured in years not weeks, so learn some paitence and enjoy what you have and let the pup do the same. He will learn.

Ezzy

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:15 pm

A lot of sound advice. Some personal opinions:

I think 3' high cover is too tall for your walks. Take your pup along the edges of *mowed* fields. You don't want the cover slapping him in the face right now.

10 minutes is a good time span. Just watch pup and make sure you quit with him wanting some more. The pup's tail and other body language is your cue. Of course, the 10 minutes will increase with pup's age.

On you walks, keep the pie-hole zipped. Let pup learn to go with you on his own. He will. He's a Vizsla, he can't help himself. They don't call them The Velcro Dog for nothing.

If your pup isn't firmly established on birds, then do so before you take him off birds till he's around a year old. There is a lot of advice around on how to do that. I'd wait awhile, though and let pup forget about getting whapped in the face with the wing.

Your pup's brain is NOT developed at 12 weeks. He might be through his first fear period, but he is in no way mature. He will be a baby AFTER his body looks to be adult.

Pulling the pup off birds doesn't mean not taking walks or not doing basic obedience kinds of training. Just remember that you want to end up with a bird dog, not an obedience dog. It's a whole lot better to have pup a little under-trained as over-trained.

Pulling the pup off birds also doesn't mean not running pup on wild birds if you have access to them. You should have access to a lot of state and federal land with grouse on them up there in MI.

You have plenty to keep you busy taking pup to different places for walks, play fetch games in the hall with a smelly sock, gently introducing water, etc. to keep you busy till pup is about a year old.

Remember to keep your sessions short and leave pup wanting more. You won't train pup in a day, but you will train pup very well in a couple of good 5 minute sessions a day, every day. Consistency and patience are key.

When pup is some older, you might let him start dragging a short piece of cord on your walks. Gradually lengthen the cord and scale up to normal check cord thickness. In this way, when training starts, pup won't mind dragging a full-length check cord.

Gotta head to the theater to see Fantastic 4. Just keep calm and patient; in the end, you won't train the dog, the birds will.

Best,

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:57 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:A lot of sound advice. Some personal opinions:
On you walks, keep the pie-hole zipped. Let pup learn to go with you on his own. He will. He's a Vizsla, he can't help himself. They don't call them The Velcro Dog for nothing.

I would have to disagree with you there. Dont give him commands but praise him constantly when he goes into the brush or finds a bird scent or whenever u get the chance make him feel like what he is doing is good. But once again DONT ISSUE ANY COMMANDS

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