Lab Trouble

[cm_osu]

I have been working with my lab for a little while now. When I first got him he would retrieve just about anything I threw at him. Now he will only retrieve tennis balls. Anything else and he runs up to it, sniffs it and runs back to me. What is the next step to getting him to retrieve bumpers again.

FYI. Male, almost 1 year old.

[blunder]

How old is he ? The common thing to turn them off for a while is a sore mouth, so is he teething?

[cm_osu]

11 months.

[gonehuntin']

He is prime time to train right now but you have to know how to train him. Start with obedience and force fetch. Get the series by Evan Graham, Smart Fetch, and follow that. You have to follow an organized program for a well trained dog. Obedience and Force are your next two combined steps. Mean time, don't give him anymore tennis balls, just soft bumpers.

[prairiefirepointers]

I have had this happen before. If you have a 'softer' dog and have put too much pressure on them they might quit. Say if you were working with bumpers and he was being a knucklehead that day, and you had what I call a "Come to Jesus Meeting" he might say ok, I'm done. Not saying that is the case, but can happen, and sometimes it does not take alot of pressure depending on the dog. Now you have two avenues to persue. One being take everything but bumpers away from him. Chill out for awhile and do not use any exercises pertaining to retrieving bumpers. come back in a week and see if he picks it back up. IF so, great. If not, I agree with gonehuntin, forcefetch. Everyone's dog has minor setbacks from time to time, so don't beat yourself up over it. Its how you handle the situation to get back on track that is key.
Good luck!

[Lab Man]

As suggested you need to get the book and dvd called Smartfetch by Evan Graham. I have both the book and dvd set in stock. You can see them at www.coonriverkennels.com . If you PM me or e-mail me at mark@coonriverkennels.com I will give you free shipping.

[Trekmoor]

I would not give the dog even one more ball to retrieve . I am not a fan of f.f. training so if I had a problem like the one described I would C.T. train the dog. I am a beginner at it but I have had one problem dog burst a gut trying various ways to please me in how he retrieved after a few weeks of C.T. type training. This post is about a close range problem . C.T. methods are good for that.

Bill T.

[crackerd]

Could work, Bill--don't think anybody would discount clicker or treat training for shaping puppy behaviour. Problem is, this dog's dictating the terms of what it will or won't retrieve. That's why GH cited force fetching in conjunction with following a sequential program--FF is foundational in any of those programs for training a retriever. You're not forcing the dog to retrieve, you're teaching it to retrieve reliably.

My hunch is this dog stopped retrieving because the trainer made the early mistake of throwing for the dog til his proverbial arm almost fell off. It's a cardinal rule in training American retrievers that you don't throw for your own dog after, say, 16 weeks old. If you do, that turns into the dog shaping your behavior--*and* it gets conditioned to go only as far as you can throw and on top of that it never really develops marking skills.

MG

[Trekmoor]

it gets conditioned to go only as far as you can throw and on top of that it never really develops marking skills.

MG

Hi MG , Great to see you here too ! I agree 110% with your above words. I train mainly on my own nowadays and my dogs couldn't mark their dinners in a dish !
This doesn't make an awful lot of difference to me since I lost interest in tests donkeys years ago . Up to present I have found that after some initial poorly marked retrieves on fresh shot game while out "picking up" my dogs readjust their ideas and will mark pretty well at longer ranges - but I hasten to add - usually nothing like the ranges you fellas are having to deal with as commonplace in your trials !
I would just love to see that for real !

As you know the F.F. is not commonly used in Britain - we tend to feel that if a dog needs to be F.F.'d then we don't want it !
I know that this would not be enough for your trials , you yourself explained that to me over a year ago. I would be the first to admit that although I have won a couple of lab trials over here I would be very unlikely to win a single trial of yours or even to be placed in one.

Having said all that is F.F. really neccessary for non -trial dogs - the bread and butter dogs of the "average" hunter ? We don't seem to have too many problems getting our gundogs over here to retrieve if the individual trainer/owner makes a real effort to encourage and train for a decent retrieve.

Sorry - this must read like a "holier than thou" message - I honestly don't feel that way. Our two countries just do things - differently.

Bill T.

[crackerd]

Bill, there are some who advocate force fetching all gundogs as a matter of course; my rationale is a little different. I don't think it's necessary, but feel the little pain inflicted on and incurred by the dog during the FF process is far less than the anguish I as a hunter would get over a lifetime from a dog with an unreliable retrieve. Or from a dog that didn't handle. As it happens, I do FF all my dogs--they're all trial and test dogs so there's that argument for force fetch as a foundational application for having a dog that handles. (Handling of course as Gonehuntin' and we other "retrieverites" interpret it far different than a pointing dog turning about when it's ranging.) Essentially, force fetch becomes the bedrock for compliance, but 98 percent of the pointer people's perspective would be "robotic, remote-controlled dogs"--most likely without ever having seen an all-age field trial and the demands on these dogs, and the marking and memory and sheer athleticism they display.

But I digress. Wanted to interject there's absolutely nothing wrong with throwing marks for one's own dog--if it's done correctly, which can be a boon for both the dog's confidence and desire, as well as inculcating steadiness. You simply sit the dog, walk whatever distance you want the dog to travel, toss the bird or dummy, and release it remotely, usually by shouting the dog's name to release it for the mark. GH will know this as "poor man's singles," but it is so much more--the dog learns to run a straight line, it learns to mark and run the straight line to that mark, and it goes at a d*mn the torpedo pace because it wants so badly to get the retrieve and also--this of primary import when it's a young dog--to get hard and fast to your vicinity, your being its lord and master.

By the way, I'm training one of those now, a British dog to boot--actually, I think she's how I ended up on this board, as I learned about her from gundogbreeders.com site. Don't think her dam or sire's ever picked up a duck--they're pheasant dogs in the Midwest. I liked that--we still use pheasants in our FTs in the East. She'll run her first trial next month, at 8 mos. old. Having a grand time of training her--to mark long, to use every foot of water on holding her line to a bird, to run blinds without putting her nose down (predisposed to such by pedigree, I'm afraid). But what a willing pup. Can't say that she'll make an all-age dog yet, but ain't betting against it, and the journey in finding out is all fun.

Cheers,

MG

[Trekmoor]

She sounds good.What breeding is she ? I have never heard of anyone running a dog in a G.B. trial at 8months. The earliest I've entered a pup for a Novice trial at and won is about 14 months. Even that is considered a bit too young over here. I qualified the same bitch for the British Retriever Championships a couple of months later but I didn't take her. I felt that so many birds being shot at and falling all around in circumstances where the handler can do nothing about control if he hasn't already done it would blow a young dogs mind !!! I might easily have ruined her. Open trial winners tend to be a bit older in Britain they need to gain maturity and experience to do well in a British style trial, I was a bit lucky to have won a two day Open with her , I wasn't going to push my luck in the Championships !

Bill T.

[TN_LAB]

Try giving the dog (and yourself) a break for a few days. Work on obedience drills instead.

Also, consider trying:
Throw bumpers in a hallway without distractions.
Get the dog rev'd up and make it fun.
Stop throwing the ball.