I need advice; two training problems

[shelttc]

I have a six month old male chocolate lab. He's doing pretty well in his training; doing doubles, follows hand signals, responds to the whistle, introduced to gunfire, and e-collar conditioned. But recently I have hit a wall with him.
Problem 1: when we are training with the gun I just can't keep him from breaking on the shot. I use a stake to keep him at heel while I throw and shoot, but he breaks every time and doesn't mind being nailed when he comes to the end of the leash. The problem is worse when other trainers and dogs are around, he constantly barks/whines. He is so excited and pumped that he just can't contain it. For the life of me, I just can't settle him down.
Problem 2: The other day we went to our training pond and found that about 50 canadian geese had set up shop. He didn't notice them until he got in the water, never seen one before. I thought this might be fun for him, but when I sent him into the water in the direction of the geese they immediately turned in his direction and the largest ones started honking at him. He froze, turned back to the bank, came to heel and just watched them. I think he was a little scared. He wouldn't go further than a few feet from the bank into the water until the geese left. After that, he was fine. Is it possible that he will be scared of geese from now on?

[Sharon]

Welcome to the forum.

That was a big mistake. Not that we haven't all made them.
Could stick with him for a while. No more geese until....and wait and see. You may have to do
progressive conditioning at some point - as is done for gunshys. Right now I'd just make it fun to go into the water again.

2) Normally we increase the correction if the dog won't respond to what he knows to do. ( Check cord isn't sufficient to keep him in a heel position, so use e-collar.) However, as your dog is only 6 months old and is disobeying due to eagerness to do his job, I would hesitate to increase the e-collar. I would shorten up that cord and keep him at heel.

PS I could definately be wrong but it sounds like a lot of training pressure is happening for a 6 month old dog. To remain willingly at heel after the shot is a more advanced skill.

[Kiki's Mom]

I could definately be wrong but it sounds like a lot of training pressure is happening for a 6 month old dog.

I think I would have to agree. At just 6 months this boy is just a baby. Back to yard work and "ground manners" and prolly a good time ti stay clear of the field for a little while. Sometimes when we hit a wall in training it does just as much good to back off and go back to it at an older/ different age. But then again Labs are "babies" til they are 6 years old......and my thoughts could be way off base.

[Don]

Quit trying to break him and start teaching him. He's young and short on obedience! You said, "when we are training with the gun I just can't keep him from breaking at the shot". Well you already know what he's going to do and you continue to do it. Give him some time and work on obedience. eliminate the gun.

"The problem is worse when other trainers and dogs are around...." Don't train then, well not as you might think. Rather than work on what your doing, work on him sitting still and being quiet. Don't get him around a lot of it tho till you've worked on more obedience.

I doubt the geese left any kind of scar on him. What you saw was a young dog reacting to something new and strange. I believe that if 50 Canada geese came after you in the water, you'd leave too. he may look all grown up but he's a puppy. You saw a setup that you'd have been best to avoid, next time avoid it. Next time let him investigate a duck or two till he wants to take on a bunch. Then introduce him to a goose, singular! It is sometimes hard not to look at a 6 mo old dog and realize that it really is just a pup.

Bear in mind that the most important thing with a dog like that is obedience. Sounds like the want to has pretty much taken care of itself! Obedience, obedience, obedience!

[crackerd]

I have a six month old male chocolate lab. He's doing pretty well in his training; doing doubles, follows hand signals, responds to the whistle, introduced to gunfire, and e-collar conditioned. But recently I have hit a wall with him.
Problem 1: when we are training with the gun I just can't keep him from breaking on the shot. I use a stake to keep him at heel while I throw and shoot, but he breaks every time and doesn't mind being nailed when he comes to the end of the leash. The problem is worse when other trainers and dogs are around, he constantly barks/whines. He is so excited and pumped that he just can't contain it. For the life of me, I just can't settle him down.
Problem 2: The other day we went to our training pond and found that about 50 canadian geese had set up shop. He didn't notice them until he got in the water, never seen one before. I thought this might be fun for him, but when I sent him into the water in the direction of the geese they immediately turned in his direction and the largest ones started honking at him. He froze, turned back to the bank, came to heel and just watched them. I think he was a little scared. He wouldn't go further than a few feet from the bank into the water until the geese left. After that, he was fine. Is it possible that he will be scared of geese from now on?

Seems you've made the "problems" counterintuitive. On the one hand, you've got a dog that breaks on shot in its enthusiasm to get a bird. On the other, you've sent a dog to retrieve geese knowing (unlike the dog) that they ain't going to be retrieved as they've not been shot or crippled, and now the dog's come back to you confused as to why it went out in the first place. What did expect the pup to do with the geese, follow them around in the water? Put them to flight? Stay at their heels and not come off them when you whistled the dog in or commanded "Leave it!" No good comes from sending a dog for an unshot bird, especially a goose--unless you're wanting to build an unmotivated pup's desire and have experience in knowing how much rope to give it. And even then, bad idea.

Your entire predicament goes away with obedience--you say the pup is collar-conditioned, but with retrievers, collar conditioning means that the collar is overlaid with known commands, the most basic of which is "Sit." Sit means sit--whatever the circumstances. Sit means you will not break, you will await my release, or the collar will bite you and I will reiterate "Sit!" when it does bite.

The vocalizing--the whining and yelping--you'll have to deal with, too, and it'd better be nipped straight away or that's one problem you won't be able to fix over the dog's lifetime. The dog needs to learn what "Quiet!" means. There are eight or nine ways of addressing it, and the reason why so many is there's not one of them that's successful for every dog. The most direct is grabbing the dog's snout in a lip-lock and shouting "Quiet!" in its face. You can also swat it with a heeling stick under the chin while repeating the same command. Or when the whining and barking begins, you can immediately take the dog from the blind and crate it in the truck--hoping that the dog will understand why the punitive action has been taken and will learn to button up.

When you "throw and shoot," you're also doing the dog, and yourself, a disservice. You're multitasking all kinds of futility. Trying to handle the dog while throwing a bumper or bird only as far as your arm can heave it diminishes the dog's marking range and also gives it false confidence for retrieving. You're also inviting the overexcitement (breaking, vocalizing), because the dog's attention is on you as thrower, rather than in the field, where you should *always* have someone else throwing marks for a dog, whether singles or multiples. Your focus needs to be on the dog and the dog's focus needs to be on where the birds will fall. The bad behaviour will go away when you get those priorities in order--along with the obedience, which comes first.

As for retrieving geese, make it a gradual introduction, usually with oversized bumpers at the start (or big stuffed animals, which I use with pups), then a dead bird, preferably a smaller goose, such as a snow or cackler. It's not the weight of a goose, or the size, or any apprehension in dealing with a cripple that causes most dogs to fail with their first goose, it's that they've not learned how to handle them--and then the handler's qualms turning into frustration when the dog fails at something it's not been taught. They all will pick up geese, they being dogs, the size--of the dogs or geese--irregardless.

Best thing you can do, pronto, is join a retriever club, and also get into a retriever training group (or two), preferably a group headed by a pro. They aren't terribly difficult to find if you ask around. Good luck.

MG

[shelttc]

Thanks for all the feedback; it was really helpful. This is my first time training. You can read all the books in the world, but some things just don't sink in until someone straight up tells you. So thanks again.

[gonehuntin']

Crackered has given you good advice. In addition, try "indirect training". When you take him up to the line to send him on a mark, crack him hard with a heeling stick and command SIT!! Same with the noise. When he starts to whine, crack him and command sit. You do two things by doing this. You reinforce "sit" and get lightening fast sits, and you dissassociate the corrections from the direct problems, thus giving the dog a better training attitude.

Challenge him. When he is sent on a mark, develop a cadence and never vary it. It would go something like this: Sit. Mark. You then call for the bird and bird is thrown. Place your hand for the line over his nose, count "one", "two", and say his name, sending the dog. Use that exact same sequence every time.

Have a 10' lead on him tied to you with a 1" collar on his neck. When he breaks, don't say a word. Let him hit the end, tell him heel, have the thrower pick up the bird, and do it again. Do it until he sits as still as an old tree.

Now challenge him by saying another dog's name. Lets say his name is "dog". Have the mark thrown and command "Pete". "Harry". "Mike". If he doesn't break, go through your cadence. If he does break, pick up the bird and do it again. The dog never, ever gets a bird unless he sits quietly and steady. Good Luck.

[Sandy Meador]

Everyone has given you some great advice! I agree w/gonehuntin' on the name calling for a release. I had a male Lab named Jeb, he would never move a muscle when I said Deb, Leb, Beb, Zeb - but as soon as Jeb came out of my mouth, bam - he was off!

My advice is to go back to yard work and reinforce SIT. Sit means sit & stay until released. No matter what! If you cannot get it right in the yard, you will never get it right in the field. Start w/simple retrievers w/no distractions. Add distractions as the pup gets steadier. But whatever - you must demand consistancy! Same way every day, no slipping for ANY reason. I love a riding crop and all of my retrievers know exactly what it is and is used for.

Worked w/a lady that had a terrible problem w/a breaking Lab. Finally we tried hooking a can filled w/rocks (w/a lid) on the end of the check cord. When that Lab hit the end of the cord and that bucket came chasing after it - well, I wish I had videoed it. It was priceless, the dog couldn't get away from the can! That Lab became one of the most rock-solid steady dogs, after that single session, that I had ever seen.

As far as the gun shots go, in the yard, shout Boom or Bam as the bumper is thrown. Demand steadiness on this drill after the dog is steady on just the throw. This is how I start all my puppies.

Good luck!