Hup question for springer trainers

[Gabe]

OK let me start off by saying that I’m not really training pup hard more of a play training however he is quick to learn, so I want to make sure my play training isn’t going to hurt something in the future. I have a 4 ½ month ESS, we’re working on hup and come and on our walks I’m working on his quartering and one or two retrieves. I can get him to hup with just a hand signal when he see’s my hand up he just drops. The drop is my question, when he’s out in front of me I can give the hup command he will drop not sit but drop, is this something I should correct? This is only when he’s a distance away from me, when he’s at my feet he will sit, should I modify these commands or make them different, use sit when he’s at my feet and require him to actually sit and use hup when he’s out from me and allow him to just lay down. Do you think his laying down will change when we’re in thicker cover by necessity in order to see me?

[crackerd]

No, the pup's lying down will not "upgrade" to hup over time. You need to have hup instilled from the start, and since hup means sit in spanielese, that's easy to do. Whether at the food bowl before it's released to eat, or before the dog says its prayers at night, or at your side whilst heeling. The reason for hupping instead of the drop is so a flushing dog can mark a fall accurately. In Europe pointing dogs are schooled in the drop--after flushing on command--but they are not responsible for a retrieve. For spaniels, hupping puts them in the best vantage for watching a bird go down.

You can get the dog hupping to movement (before ever having it flush clip-wing pigeons or gamebirds) in a lot of ways--by throwing a tennis ball in front of the dog, firing off a dummy from a hand-held retriever training launcher "across the bow," to the sound of gunshot (blank or primer pistol). Be aware, though, if you let the pup chase before hupping's been successfully taught, or to get onto a bird or an object before you release it to retrieve, it's going to be an uphill battle for getting the dog steady. Would this be a field-bred springer? Whether yes or no, are you located near any spaniel clubs?

MG

[Gabe]

Yep he's field breed no local clubs.

Last week I threw out a dummy while he was looking at me and said hup which he did and he was sitting, so I've been doing that with one of the retrives each night and he's to the point where when he sees me throw he'll hup (sit) so he can mark the dummy. If I do it with out the dummy sometimes he sit's sometimes he lays down, on the times he sits I'll walk over to him to give him some good boys and as I approach he may start to lay down and roll over.
It's early yet so maybe I'll just stop trying to get him to hup at a distence and just work on a good hup/sit while close then move up as he get's a bit older, I don't want to confuse him. Also when at heel (yes he heels) I know some folks don't like that idea for a ESS but the trainer i'm basing my training off of is Ed Martian and he teaches his pups to heel. I know he's just 4 months and I think sometimes I'm going to fast but he picks things up so quick. It took me two days to teach him to heel, and when I stop walking he sits. That why I'm asking this question because I need to make sure I'm right the first time. Because he's so quick to learn

[Don]

I hesitate to add anything to what crackered said but will add this. With any dog, any dog, what it won't do at ten feet realiably, it won't do at eleeven. Think about it.

[crackerd]

With any dog, any dog, what it won't do at ten feet realiably, it won't do at eleven. Think about it.

Great point for seguing into why it's so important to train with others, preferably a pro, when it comes to spaniels. The way steadiness training works is, the handler rolls the bird in front of the dog as it turns about in its quartering pattern--when both dog and bird are just a few feet in front of the handler. Thus if the dog doesn't hup or if it breaks a hup as the bird flies away, you the handler can make an immediate correction because the dog's essentially within arm's length of your getting to it. The correction registers because it's made so quickly, rather than your having to run the length of a field to get to the dog and let it know it's done wrong.

The point about reliability at distance also hints at how the e-collar is used for correcting retrievers--Martin Deeley calls it a long e-lead for reminding a dog rather than punishing it.

MG

[Sharon]

Interesting read.
I was going to say , "What does it matter, as long as he is out of the line of fire? " until I read crackerd 's post. Makes perfectly good sense. Good advice.

[Gabe]

Thanks everyone I wasn’t sure how much response I was going to get for a Springer question.
To be honest pup isn’t moving when I give him the hup command he’s just not sitting always, and he’s steady even when I throw the dummy close to him. I would argue with myself as to weather that was a big deal or not the only argument for it being a concern was what was brought up “marking” and that alone seems worth it. The other reasons seemed more about “cosmetics” and control, though I don’t intend to trial him I don’t want that to be an excuse to be lazy either.
Again he’s young so I don’t want to confuse him, I’ll work this issue where he is close enough to be corrected without me running at him and scaring him.

As for a Springer club there aren’t any local and I’ve played that game with my GSP and the club seemed more about training and less about hunting or even a good house dog (NAVDA). Though I whish I had more local help for sure, I’m not into the politics that seem to happen in every club. That’s why I’m on this forum.

[Sharon]

I hear you. Almost decided not to participate at my local club level this coming year.

[Gabe]

Well it took me just a couple of session to get pup to actually sit with the hup command while quartering. He’s also hupping when he sees me throw a dummy, so I’m quite happy. Now we’re working on some house rules more for my son then for pup but, we’re getting there.

[47sgs]

The other reasons seemed more about “cosmetics” and control, though I don’t intend to trial him I don’t want that to be an excuse to be lazy either.
Again he’s young so I don’t want to confuse him, I’ll work this issue where he is close enough to be corrected without me running at him and scaring him.

As for a Springer club there aren’t any local and I’ve played that game with my GSP and the club seemed more about training and less about hunting or even a good house dog (NAVDA). Though I whish I had more local help for sure, I’m not into the politics that seem to happen in every club. That’s why I’m on this forum.

Don't be too quick to rule out trialing your springer. Springer trials are alot of fun, and simulate hunting in most ways. You can be as much of a participant as you want as far as the politics, or not at all. Go watch a springer trial, you'll be impressed with the dog work. I trialed springers for years, and my trial dogs did an awesome job hunting wild birds. The trials extended my "hunting season".

[Killer Instinct]

Show us some pics of your springer puppy!

[Gabe]

[quote="47sgs
Don't be too quick to rule out trialing your springer. Springer trials are alot of fun, and simulate hunting in most ways. You can be as much of a participant as you want as far as the politics, or not at all. Go watch a springer trial, you'll be impressed with the dog work. I trialed springers for years, and my trial dogs did an awesome job hunting wild birds. The trials extended my "hunting season".[/quote]

I won't rule it out but it will be seconed to hunting, I know I sound like an old curmudgeon and anti-social which maybe I am, but dog people are my favorit and I always gravitate towards them so I'm sure if a trail gets run in my area I'll find myself there some how.