WHY STEADY TO WING AND SHOT??

[fuess]

Just a question from reading the thread posted by "First Dog".

If you only hunt with a dog, no testing, do you still desire STWS, or will you, can you tolerate the dog that breaks on flush?

I am not saying one is better than the other, personal preference, just checking with the field as to thoughts!

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Fuess

[luke0927]

for hunting i would say Steady to Flush is really all thats needed but STWS would also help on the dog not rushing in an maybe busting more birds that did not flush....you don't want a dog jumping in on birds or up at birds and you have some idiot hunting with you and then he shoots your dog

[natetnc]

for a PERSONAL hunting dog i think the cost benefit would generally advise against a solid stws dog. for a GUIDED hunting dog stws would aid in the dogs safety on a somewhat regular basis. i know who i let hunt around my dog and what their standards of safety are, not too many guides can say the same about all of their clients. don't get me wrong, i think it gives you an advantage in either situation, but for an average hunting dog i don't think it is needed.

[Greg Jennings]

Have seen a dog shot breaking and chasing a low-flying bird. Have seen one of my own dogs jump 8' in the air and appear in my sight picture. I don't want to hunt with a dog that isn't steady to the shot.

[BigShooter]

Consider muzzle blast and noise. A dog that moves with a bird flushing is more likely to be out front when subjected to the shotgun blast. IMO the dog holding steady to wing and shot is more often behind the hunter when the shotgun is fired. One might theorize this could impact a dog's rate of hearing loss.

Mark

[RayGubernat]

For close to forty five years I hunted over dogs that wee staunch(went with the flush of the bird). Never needed any more than that.

Now that I am trialing...all my dogs are STW&S becuase that is what is expected and needed to participate.

If I were to do any more guiding, I think I would want my dogs to be steady or at most...break at shot.

If I quit trialing, I will probably still train my dogs STW&S, mostly because it is easier for me to do it that way, but I seriously doubt if I would require them to stay that way 100% of the time.

RayG

[gonehuntin']

It looks so good to have a dog steady to flush, wing, and shot but that being said, you'll find more down birds if the dog goes at the shot or fall of the bird. They should stay steady through the flush to mark the bird, but then the quicker they get there, the more pheasant you'll recover. In my opinion anyhow.

I used to keep the pups broke to flush, shot, and fall, but no more. I'd lose to many birds and, quite frankly, it was too much of a pain in the butt during hunting season. I like to relax once in a while too.

I still keep them perfect in summer training, but they kind of revert to breaking on shot as hunting season proresses. Especially when we're after pheasant.

[Rick Hall]

I'm wit' George Bird Evans, who once wrote something to the effect of, "Having had a steady dog, it is not something I would want to do without." Even putting safety concerns aside, there's much to be said for not adding a running dog to one's sight picture when birds take wing.

(While I used to buy into the notion that a dog leaving the starting gate with its birds would recover more cripples, my experience, often in literally side-by-side comparison of breaking and steady dogs, has been the contrary.)

[Sharon]

Have seen a dog shot breaking and chasing a low-flying bird. Have seen one of my own dogs jump 8' in the air and appear in my sight picture. I don't want to hunt with a dog that isn't steady to the shot.

x2

[Neil Mace]

I do not find it any harder to train a dog STWS than to be staunch, in fact my dogs rarely break after I get in front of them, it is a respect thing. I often hunt with dogs that are not steady, and that is not a huge problem, although as said, they often get their retrieve stolen.

Now my dogs are not 100%, not in hunting nor in trials, so perhaps my way is not the best. But it works for us, we win some, hunt a good deal, and have fun. The dogs seem to take pride in being steady.

Those that loose a lot of birds to a steady dog might need to shoot better or work more on marking, I just don't find it a problem.

I do have a promblem with delayed chase on weak flying birds that flutter down at the shot, unless we go a long way off before we release, they tend to loop back for the bird. For that reason, I run mostly wild and pre-release trials. If I were to run many drop down bird trials, I would have to stop hunting my trial dogs so much.

Neil

[Gordon Guy]

Some of it has to do with the birds you hunt. When I hunted Prairie Grouse (Sharptails)many times the dog would go on point, I'd walk in to flush the bird and one or two would get up and I'd either hit or miss it, reload my gun and have more birds go out. If a dog was allowed to break or chase after the flush it would chase up all the birds that were either spread out feeding or chose to hold tight. Having a dog broke to wing and shot has allowed me to shoot more birds.

This can be said for wild pheasant too. When a bird takes to wing well ahead of a dog and the dog sees the bird and chases and subsequently pushes all the remaining birds into the air you will see the benefit of a dog steady to wing and shot as well as steady to wild flush.

[3Britts]

I have to agree that stw&s is a must. It only takes one shot to kill the best dog you have ever had. Why take the chance.

[Don]

I started steady to w/s/k because I thought it was a beautiful thing to watch a dog done completely. Since then I have one friend that shot his dog and killed it and have seen many instences where handlers were shooting birds right off the nose of a dog chashing. To close for me.

[Higgins]

When you talk about steady to wing and shot, are you including steady to fall?

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs
"where the BIRD says "whoa"

[Rick Hall]

Some of it has to do with the birds you hunt. When I hunted Prairie Grouse (Sharptails)many times the dog would go on point, I'd walk in to flush the bird and one or two would get up and I'd either hit or miss it, reload my gun and have more birds go out. If a dog was allowed to break or chase after the flush it would chase up all the birds that were either spread out feeding or chose to hold tight. Having a dog broke to wing and shot has allowed me to shoot more birds.

This can be said for wild pheasant too. When a bird takes to wing well ahead of a dog and the dog sees the bird and chases and subsequently pushes all the remaining birds into the air you will see the benefit of a dog steady to wing and shot as well as steady to wild flush.

A lot of folks suffer the misconception that STWS came into practice with the advent of field trialing, but it's origin goes back to muzzle-loading days, when hunters didn't want their dogs flushing additional birds before an empty gun. In those days, dogs were taught to "charge," meaning lay down while guns were being charged with fresh powder and shot, before being sent to retrieve or hunt on.

[BigShooter]

So that's where the expression "who's in charge" came from referring to labs, chessie's & their owners?

[3Britts]

Personally, I think the hard part is getting them steady through wing. The rest of it just take a little patience on your part.

[GsPJustin]

I have a quick question... Why would anyone advise against STWS?( assuming that means wing, shot, and fall) For any category of pointer, meaning guide dog, meat dog, etc..

I can understand the concept of having a slight better chance to pick up a cripple, but that sounds like a human error, not a training indifference.

[slistoe]

When you talk about steady to wing and shot, are you including steady to fall?

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs
"where the BIRD says "whoa"

IMO Steady is STEADY. What is with all this wing/shot/fall nuisance.

Aesthetics, Safety and Performance are all enhanced with a STEADY dog. Examples have already been provided for each count.

[gonehuntin']

I always find in amazing how many people claim their dogs to be steady throughout, but when I see them in the field, where are they? I watch the hunting shows and they are laughable. I don't think I've seen a dog on them completely steady. At the shooting preserves, same thing. You see dogs merrily chasing the birds from field to field. I think there are not as many dogs steady to wing, shot, and fall as people would try and have us believe.

Now, I'm NOT promoting letting a dog chase, nor letting one go at the flush. That's dangerous stuff. But quite honestly, if a dog breaks at the shot and will return promptly on the whistle, I don't have a problem with that at all. That dog will also, without a doubt, retrieve more poorly hit pheasant than a dog steady throughout.

I think that how steady a dog is is also a product of the TYPE of bird hunted. Quail, grouse, and woodcock are all very easy to keep a dog steady on. Pheasant is the most difficult. Those big cackling cocks springing from the cover unnerve the most experienced of dogs.

For those that are having trouble steadying a dog, you'll also find that if you always circle the dog and approach from the front, it will be easier to keep the dog steady.

[slistoe]

I certainly wouldn't try to have you believe that there are a lot of steady dogs. My experience in the field tells me that the majority of pointing dogs fellows try to hunt with are not staunch, let alone steady. That does not negate the advantages of having a steady dog for those of us who can and do.

As to your retrieve theory - whatever.

[Rick Hall]

When folks talk about "steady" dogs losing more cripples, I can't help but think they're refering to half-steady dogs that are still looking over their shoulders figuratively, if not literally, to see if correction is coming, rather than paying attention to business.

[subatomicstang]

Im novice in all aspects but in my mind when i get to that point i would be ok with my dog breaking on the shot. For those who are trained to stay steady through the shot what do you guys command for release? and when do you release right after your last shot?

-Randy

[gonehuntin']

Most use a tap to the head to signal OK. I don't like walking back to the dog to release it, so I use a whistle to release the dog.

[3Britts]

I don't like walking back to release mine either. I use the word "bird" to release mine.

[subatomicstang]

how many different whistle signals do you guys use? I dont want the dog to get confused

[Ruffshooter]

If I miss the bird, I say leave it and here or whistle here, walk, then up front, away from the missed bird to give it a half hour or so to settle down. If I hit the bird, the dogs name.

[slistoe]

To release the dog I use "Allright" or "Gone Away". Depends on the results of the shot. On a gone away command the dog is expected to renew hunting without pursuing after the flown bird. Allright means the dog is free to leave and do as it wishes - which will be to get the bird as quickly as it can. The timing of the release is entirely dependent on when I feel like releasing the dog. In some cases the retrieve is called for before the smoke has exited the end of the barrel, other times I will walk over to the dog and pet them up a little with a couple of good girls before sending for the retrieve - depends on the need at the time. On missed birds the release is always after I have marked the birds down for future pursuit.

[slistoe]

Releasing to a whistle - I only use two whistle commands. One is to get moving and the other is to come back in. Two toots is get going and I have used it on many occasions to release a dog. A trill whistle is to come in and although it will also work to release a dog I don't use it much. If I am wondering if a distant dog still has birds under her nose I can give a whistle and if they don't move I know to hustle butt over there.

[Rick Hall]

"Ok" or a whistle release (actually the same whipped up whistle used for turns - same signals since the mid-'70s without apparent confusion).

[subatomicstang]

Releasing to a whistle - I only use two whistle commands. One is to get moving and the other is to come back in. Two toots is get going and I have used it on many occasions to release a dog. A trill whistle is to come in and although it will also work to release a dog I don't use it much. If I am wondering if a distant dog still has birds under her nose I can give a whistle and if they don't move I know to hustle butt over there.

What is a trill whistle? Type or method? Yes 2 whistles sounds simplest! i do like one for come he loves that, and one for release sounds like a good idea! Now do i have to have something else other than the whistle ? Like a verbal or can it be just a poke on the head or something i have noticed when i make him sit still i will poke himon the head and say ok to let him go. So im thinking 1 whistle to come, and maybe a pat on the front of my leg, and 1 whistle to release if he is away, and a poke on the head with the word ok. Does that sound ok ?

[Keny Glasscock]

I alway whoa my dogs first thing whether starting a hunt or trial. Just to get ito their head at the start of a session. They stand still(in theory) until I give 1 blast/toot on the whistle and they are off. 2 toots is turn, 3 toots and "here" to come in. My guiding dogs are steady through the shot, field trial dog(s) steady until released with a tap on the head or 1 whistle toot.

[slistoe]

A trill is repeated toots - I modulate with my tongue on the opening of the whistle. I like the Gonia pealess, my wife likes the Gonia with the pea. The dogs don't seem to care.