Retriever training for a young pup

[tommyboy72]

I have a 15 month old Miller bred pointer pup and this is her first year on birds (wild quail and wild pheasant). She had been learning really fast and doing quite well. She actively tracks and finds birds switching from air to foot scent, points and holds points until I get there although she does get a little antsy once I walk up and wants to creep in and flush the birds but I am not real picky about this, she is e collar trained, whistle trained, has a heck of a nose on her, has been shot over numerous times and is not gun shy at all, has really put gunshots and birds together real well, finds and points deads, and really hunts like a polished dog other than one small thing. She does not retrieve. She will find the deads and point them and if I stand there to give her a chance to retrieve she will pick up and mouth the birds and attempt to bite off the heads due I am sure to the fact that I used the old training trick of feeding her quail heads of the birds she finds and points and I am lucky enough to down but she will not fully retrieve them back to me. When I walk over to pick up the bird myself she will lay down on her side and roll on the bird in an attempt to keep me from picking it up and when I do pick it up she will jump all over me trying to get the bird back and just get all hyper. I am thinking of sending her to a trainer friend of mine this summer to be force fetched but the last dog I sent down to him came back grossly underweight and timid as heck from the pressure put on him and when he did fetch it was with his tail between his legs and hunched down and for the first 4 or 5 days after I got him back he would not even leave the dog house. It took me about 2 weeks to get him back to his normal self. We even tried running him on some birds on the trainer's land and he refused to point birds I know he knew were there. I know this trainer because he is a personal friend of mine and it was no fault of his that my dog acted this way he is just a really soft dog who still will not retrieve but will find deads and point them as well as run to them and mouth them. Yes I know I should train my dogs steady to wing and shot but I choose not to. I have been using a training method Ben O. Williams refers to as the instinctive method and it has worked out really well with 3 dogs other than the retrieving aspect of it. One of my dogs naturally retrieved until this year and now she will retrieve if you are hunting her alone but not with other dogs but she is also 8 years old so I do not force her too much. The other dog I took to have force fetch trained is 4 but everytime I try to put pressure on him he clams up and acts like he has been beaten so I do not force him because he does everything else exactly how I like it. I guess what I am asking is, is there anything I can do with my young pointer to get her to fetch without pressuring her too much and making her end up like my other pointer. She does everything else just the way I like it other than she does not retrieve. I guess I should mention that with working with her in the back yard she does retrieve dead quail but she picks them up by the head to bring them back. Should I just give her more time to start picking up birds by the body and hope she will start retrieving since she acts so bird crazy or should I take steps to speed the process along?

[Sharon]

I have a 15 month old Miller bred pointer pup and this is her first year on birds (wild quail and wild pheasant). She had been learning really fast and doing quite well. She actively tracks and finds birds switching from air to foot scent, points and holds points until I get there although she does get a little antsy once I walk up and wants to creep in and flush the birds but I am not real picky about this, she is e collar trained, whistle trained, has a heck of a nose on her, has been shot over numerous times and is not gun shy at all, has really put gunshots and birds together real well, finds and points deads, and really hunts like a polished dog other than one small thing. She does not retrieve. She will find the deads and point them and if I stand there to give her a chance to retrieve she will pick up and mouth the birds and attempt to bite off the heads due I am sure to the fact that I used the old training trick of feeding her quail heads of the birds she finds and points and I am lucky enough to down but she will not fully retrieve them back to me. When I walk over to pick up the bird myself she will lay down on her side and roll on the bird in an attempt to keep me from picking it up and when I do pick it up she will jump all over me trying to get the bird back and just get all hyper. I am thinking of sending her to a trainer friend of mine this summer to be force fetched but the last dog I sent down to him came back grossly underweight and timid as heck from the pressure put on him and when he did fetch it was with his tail between his legs and hunched down and for the first 4 or 5 days after I got him back he would not even leave the dog house. It took me about 2 weeks to get him back to his normal self. We even tried running him on some birds on the trainer's land and he refused to point birds I know he knew were there. I know this trainer because he is a personal friend of mine and it was no fault of his that my dog acted this way he is just a really soft dog who still will not retrieve but will find deads and point them as well as run to them and mouth them. Yes I know I should train my dogs steady to wing and shot but I choose not to. I have been using a training method Ben O. Williams refers to as the instinctive method and it has worked out really well with 3 dogs other than the retrieving aspect of it. One of my dogs naturally retrieved until this year and now she will retrieve if you are hunting her alone but not with other dogs but she is also 8 years old so I do not force her too much. The other dog I took to have force fetch trained is 4 but everytime I try to put pressure on him he clams up and acts like he has been beaten so I do not force him because he does everything else exactly how I like it. I guess what I am asking is, is there anything I can do with my young pointer to get her to fetch without pressuring her too much and making her end up like my other pointer. She does everything else just the way I like it other than she does not retrieve. I guess I should mention that with working with her in the back yard she does retrieve dead quail but she picks them up by the head to bring them back. Should I just give her more time to start picking up birds by the body and hope she will start retrieving since she acts so bird crazy or should I take steps to speed the process along?

When you ask questions on a forum you should get the truth. The truth isn't always pleasant. Anything said though is for the sole purpose of trying to help.
I'm not an expert like the guys on here but I'll tell you what I'm seeing.
(I know nothing about your training method.)

I think the dogs are deciding what they will and won't do and you don't know what to do about it. ( not just in retrieving). I underlined some key sentences that tell me this. Rick Smith (trainer/educator) tells of how many dogs will cringe, cower, "cry" etc . because they have learned that this allows them to not do what is being asked.You would like the dogs to be steady to wing and shot but THEY have said no.

I hear you say that the trainer is your friend. It's noble of you to let him off the hook, but if my dog came home , "GROSSLY underweight and refused to leave his dog house for 5 days", something is VERY WRONG. I'd be screaming bloody murder. Training does NOT have to be this way. Blinking birds at the trainer's place is the dog saying , " I'm afraid to work this bird because if i don't get it right I'm going to be really punished. I'll just walk by it." Please don't send any more dogs there.

I can understand that this is why you are afraid to be demanding and firm. Very understandable. But you can be a good trainer ( firm , kind), without abusing the dog.

I'll let others help you with the retrieving problem.

[postoakshorthairs]

I'm not an expert either, but I've trained several dogs and force fetched a few. A good trainer...in my opinion...will adapt tried and true training methods to the individual dogs temperment and not pressure the dog into a nervous mess. I believe there has to be some buy in trust from the dog also which is why many trainers want the dogs there a week or two prior to putting any pressure just to build some trust. I agree with the previous post that I would have an absolute high speed come apart if my dog came back in that condition. Friend or not my dog would go somewhere else for force fetching. I'm sure the forum could offer some referals in your area that are well respected. I would also say you created some of your own issues letting the dog eat the heads of the birds by the way you describe him rolling on them so you don't take them away from him.

[Prairie dog]

Wow. Sounds like you already have a basket case at hand and the makings of another..

First of all it shouldn't be OK with you when she flushes the birds when you get near her. By allowing her to you are enabling her in to thinking she can catch the bird.. The other problem I see is that you are shooting the birds she flushes for you... In turn it is easy to see why she might think the bird belongs to her,after all it was she that found and flushed it,therefore it makes it her bird when you stop and think her reasoning for flushing the bird..Feeding bird heads to a dog like that encourages her to continue because as far as she thinks her actions is what gets her the reward, the bird head.

I personally don't know where to begin to offer a suggestion or two. Maybe we should try helping you understand what the connection is between a pointing dog and the dogs owner...And what you should expect from a well rounded pointer and in turn what the dog should expect from you while being hunted..

And by the way. You may well think of that trainer as a friend but I can assure you he does not think you as one if he treated your dog like you said.

[gonehuntin']

You're seeing one of the effects of NOT letting a pointing dog pup retrieve live clip wing pigeons. I have lost count of how many problems a year there are on the varried boards that ask about this problem and it all stems from TEACHING a dog to not retrieve birds by only letting a pup point them.

But that doesn't help you now.

You don't really have to force the dog, though I would, but you should give it a course in force hold. Making a dog hold is not hard on the dog and it does result in a dog that delivers to hand. If you are going to do this, the dog MUST have retrieving desire, though it may not want to deliver to hand.

[snips]

Sounds like you need a new force fetcher.

[tommyboy72]

I guess I made my trainer friend look bad here but that was not my intention. He trains for several trialers and has probably 30 dogs he trains and another 10 who are his personal dogs and none of these dogs were underweight and all were happy go lucky and excited, all but mine. I am not letting him off the hook I just know my dog and know he is soft that is why I could never beging to try and force fetch him myself. I am not blaming the trainer because I know my dog folds under pressure that is why I do not use an e collar on him and do not push him much but other than fetching I do not have to. He ranges just right, he checks back in regularly, he points and will hold them all day, he locates birds great, he is whistle trained. I have just never had to push him other than this force fetch deal and I knew it was going to be a big deal that is why I took him to a professional rather than doing it myself. I do not train any of my dogs to be steady to wing and shot because if I wound a bird which has been known to happen I would rather have the dog break and get right on the bird rather than waiting for me to release them and risking the chance of losing a running wounded bird. I am not as much a trainer as some on this site because I do a lot of instinctive training rather than instructive training. I more or less teach them yard work, a few commands, and guide them along but let them figure out the hunting of birds and how they want to proceed with it themselves. I know some or most probably would not agree with this but I do not purchase pen raised birds and only train on wild birds so there is my dilemma. Maybe I should and it might make for better retrieving dogs but they do everything else just the way I like and they figured it out on their own without me Whoaing them on a check cord, without launchers, without pigeons and pen raised birds, without a super rigorous training program. Just by simply taking them hunting about 4 times a week. I realize I do need to work with them on flushing birds when I start to walk in on a flush and I will but I am not too worried about being steady to wing and shot. I would like them to retrieve rather than mouthing a bird or pointing deads. Thanks for some of your advice though I appreciate all of the recommendations.

[gonehuntin']

I believe in structure in a dogs life so I don't think I can help you much. Most of the "instinctive" dogs I've been around have been basically, untrained dogs. I just don't think you can end up with a well trained dog and not put a little pressure and structure on it.

[R-Middleton]

The force fetch program should make a dog more confident, not more shy. A dog that learns by himself will do anything that he wants when he wants too. A well trained well adjusted dog is a pleasure to hunt with and be around. Each of have our own way, it doesn't make it right or wrong.
Good luck,
Ray Middleton

[Sharon]

The bottom line for any programme is : Is it working for you. If it it isn't , it needs to be changed. The proof is in the pudding.

[tommyboy72]

All of my dogs do everything to suit me except for retrieve the way I would like for them too. I even got compliments this year from several hunters and dog trainers who came out here to pheasant hunt from down state Oklahoma. I am very proud of my dogs and the way they hunt except for the retrieving. I am just not too sure how to go about fixing the problem other than paying out the rear for a pro trainer around here to do the job of force fetching them. One of my dogs, my old English Setter is heck on wheels and retrieves fantastic on pheasant but is just not real good on quail. Both my pointers are great on quail and one is even really good on pheasant but neither of the pointers retrieves well. I am just trying to figure out how to go about fixing this problem and not have to pay $2500 for one of the trainers around here to do it. The last trainer I used I was supposed to pay $500 to force fetch my male and he knocked $200 off the price after keeping the dog for 2 months and not getting the results he wanted. I am a little reluctant to pay anyone else to halfway do a job especially $2500. I will just go pick up the birds myself for that much.

[postoakshorthairs]

pay me 2500 a month and I'll come retrieve them myself!

[tommyboy72]

Point well taken postoak That is what one of the professional trainers who lives around me told me he charged to fully force fetch a dog but he offered to cut me a deal for $1500. To me that is a heck of a lot of money but I do not have the patience to do the job myself, but perhaps for $1500 I can darn sure develop some.

[prairiefirepointers]

pay me 2500 a month and I'll come retrieve them myself!

Ditto.

[R-Middleton]

Most trainers charge from $500 to $750 a month, and it shouldn't take over 2 months to force fetch a dog, unless someone has tried and screwed it up already!!

Ray Middleton