The role of the trainer

[RayGubernat]

On a recent topic on this board, the following opinion was broached:

"My opinion is its the breeder that does the programing. We the trainers can only enhance --not change-- what was given us."

As regards pointing or flushing dogs, but especially pointing dogs, I pose the following question for discussion:

What do you think the role of the trainer is or should be?

Should the trainer be in command of the process and take the raw material he or she is given and mold, shape and develop the dog that will suit the owner's needs?

or

Should the trainer let the dog drive the process and only polish and refine those talents that the dog chooses to allow the trainer to polish and refine?

Put another way...Who should train whom and in what circumstance?

RayG

[Sharon]

I see myself as a FACILITATOR not a trainer or a teacher.. I am responsible for setting up the environment so the dog can learn. I provide the shelter, the birds, the gun , the field , the ride to the field, the nutrition, the vet - now lets see what the pups got. At some point I will become a coach allowing the athlete to be all that he can be.

[romeo212000]

Well what about force breaking to retrieve? I believe the breeders job is to breed for the betterment of the qualities needed. The trainers job is to take that dogand polish that dog for what the owner needs. Sometimes all a dog needs is a knoweldgeable trainer to bring out the the abilities a dog never showed much interest in. I have seen some dogs turn out to be excellent a one quality or another that they never showed as much potential in after seeing a trainer, and conversely seen a dog not be as excellent at a quality they showed a lot of potential in. That is why we never really know what kind of dog we are going to have until aroun 2 years or older.

[sweetsong]

I believe the person looking to buy a pup needs to search out litters that have parents that meet their needs. They the trainer should develop the pups potential to fit with the owner. When I'm looking for new pup, I want a pup that will be competitive while trialing and to be a personal hunting companion. So I look for a litter that I feel will best meet my goals. If I'm going to send the pup out for training they I will look for a trainer that will help me meet those goals as well.

Terry

[RayGubernat]

Interesting rsponses so far.

I'm not sure that a trainer should be one thing or another all of the time. I really think it depends on the dog and what is desired from the dog in the way of performance.

I think that certain aspects of a dog's development must be, to an extent, controlled by the dog. For example, no matter how hard one pushes, the dog will be ready to be broke...when it is ready to be broke...and not before. The only thing that can teach a dog about how and where to find wild birds(regardless of the species)...is time in the field searching and finding those birds.

I also think that the various behaviors that go into making a cooperative hunting companion need to be trained in and ingrained into the dog by the trainer. The trainer must alter the dog's behaviors to suit the needs of the hunter/handler. While I believe the birds must teach the dog how and where to find them, I also believe the trainer must teach the dog that hunting together as a team is the way it will be done.

RayG

[fuess]

I think if you substitute trainer for "coach", the answer will reveal itself, assuming the "athelete" is truly that.

And, that is the your thought for the day!

Fuess

[gonehuntin']

Gosh, a trainer is many things. He is a teacher, a master, a friend. He tries to enhance and channel the talents a dog has. He will train the dog to accept the requirements for good citizenship the dog doesn't posess. Obedience, force, and possibly as is being debated on another thread, range.

A trainer doesn't just mold what he has, he adds what the dog hasn't.

[Prairie dog]

Fuess has it right.

Bu please remember regardless how good the couch is he can not make a basketball start out of a sumo wrestler any more than he can turn Kobe in to a start sumo . Nor can we train the Bracco Italiano to be an AA trial dog. We have to alter through breeding the genetics make up for the man and the beast in order to do that.

What someone said that a trainer can " nurture, shape and mold a dog in to being " Those words were coined by Crazydog which I happen to believe in. But those same words are meaningless unless the trainer knew exactly what he wanted for a dog as his end product and chose a breeder/s that will give him the in the rough dog fo a greater chance to achieve his end goal though a form of Nurture,shape and mold.. And lets not forget the words guard against . Because they too play a part in the scheme of things of Nurturing/molding and shaping..

Enhancers what was given us is all we are...... The good ones understand the dogs make up . They also understand the reason/s for the WHY what dogs do ,good and bad..

Something else to think on....

[bobman]

for me if I'm training a lab its a lot of hands on moulding and control.

If I'm training a pointer I pretty much let them develop on their own except for basic OB, I want my pointing dogs to do their own thing as much as is possible, with my many years of shorthairs I dont even really concentrate on retrieveing they have been mostly naturals at it. My recent move towards eps may change that but I dont have enough experience with them yet to know

[snips]

You can have the best bred dog with all the talent in the world, but without a trainer to mold it, what do you have. We just took a dog back from one of our breedings, 2 yrs old. Underneath what we see when she is cut loose on birds is an awsome dog, but one thats been allowed to be her natural self. I guess that was OK back when you had all wild birds to mold them (in the east) but what we have to work with in this area can take a super dog to a real fast. So, in a couple of months we will see the role of the trainer on this one. How many great dogs are out there that never get to their potential because they were not properly molded. We took her back because the owner said she ran too big for Grouse, but if she had some proper training bet she would have made an awsome Grouse dog. Esp when you are shooting birds down they put up, so that would not be too good for the Grouse woods

[slistoe]

If you go to the dog park in the city you will quickly realize that most dog owners there are not dog trainers and do not want to be dog trainers. When you see a well trained performance cattle dog doing it's thing one would wonder why every farmer who has cattle does not have one of those dogs. The answer is that most farmers are not dog trainers and do not want to be dog trainers. Most hunting dog owners are not dog trainers and do not want to be dog trainers.

[bobman]

Just to be clear I bring my dogs to Kansas and north dakota spring and fall, and wild birds will do a great job if you know how to use them.

If you are stuck here is Ga you better have a training regimen johnny houses, or a pigeon coop.

[mudhunter]

The breeder gives the dog all the tools but it take a good trainer to bring the dog to the fullest potential.