Training your dog to handle walking birds (Update)

[hoosier]

I have seen some NSTRA dogs forsale and they are advertised as being able to handle walking birds. How do you train a dog to handle walking birds.

I'm assuming once you have a dog whoa broke really well you just start walking birds around him/her until your confident the dog won't break am I correct?

[romeo212000]

Basically thats the idea. Of course in the end you want to reward them with a shot and retrieve as well. I would suggest waiting to do this until a dog is a little older and more mature, and make sure you feel they are very very woah broke. The reason I say that is because if you walk a bird out in front of a dog and they rush in and get it, you have to discourage the dog from doing that. If you reprimand a young dog for going after a bird you are setting yourself up for a blinking dog, and it is very very hard for a young dog full of pi$$ and vinegar to show that kind of restraint. It is important for a NSTRA dog to be able to handle walking birds because sometimes the birds dont fly right away or at all.

[Sharon]

Your post title gave me a smile. If I have to train my dog to" watch walking birds", it would be time to get a new dog. (Just teasin' ya.)

[Brittguy]

I do not know the rules concerning NSTRA requirements but my dogs are not considered broke if a bird cannot walk out in front of them without them breaking. It happens many times over a season in trials. Sometimes during a flushing attempt a bird may run right at the dog.

[hoosier]

http://www.classicpointekennels.com/ima ... 20011a.jpg

I was at a NSTRA trial and saw something similiar to this happening. I made a comment to the guy next to me that my dogs would have caught this bird. His response was then your dog isn't broke.

For you NSTRA guys and ladies will your dogs stand like this when a bird is walking around?

[Brittguy]

NICE

[kninebirddog]

We start as pups on the check cord ...we slowly bring birds out for them let them see the birds then fly them off and just gently stop the pups forward motion with the check cord and lots of praise
do a rep or two through out the week with another pup backing a couple times a week ..short fun little sessions

trick is it always has to be fun for a young dog

my avatar there is actually a wounded rooster between me and the dog

[PntrRookie]

hoosier...seen it a lot...especially when you are judging. Do not see may dogs handle it correctly and with style. When they do, the find score keeps getting higher. Had a wirehair stick a find about 200+ yards away from the handler. It took the handler quite a while to get there. The quail proceeded to walk right to the dog and through her legs and right past her to the field edge. Dog NEVER budged! This usually goes one of two ways...dog handle them or they don't. If they don't usually all h@$l breaks loose!

[RayGubernat]

Hoosier -

In planted bird trials of all types, the dogs must be able to handle a bird that will not flush, but that will run around like a chicken. In AKC and AF/AFTCA sanctioned trials, if the dog takes a step toard the birds or otherwide breaks point while the handler is flushing...the dog is pretty much disqulified.

So yes...trial dogs, of all types, are trained and proofed and tempted by walking birds in many different ways during training.

RayG

[Prairie dog]

Don't assume all Nstra and trial dogs can handle walking birds...

To answer your question as to how you can go about training your dog to handle walking birds.. The old guy that showed me how to braid a pigeons wings also showed me how to steady a dog on walking birds.. You put the dog/ Pup at stand still . Braid the wings over his head. You lay the pigeon on its side while you control the dog. The pigeon in time will right its self to where it will walk either away from the dog, to one side of him or the other , or towards him .It does not matter at this point.. In about a weeks time the dog will stand tall and proud while the pigeon walks under his belly ..He'll be bullet proof. Best time to start them is when they are young enough and about the same time you are testing their pointing instinct with the wing on the string. That wing on the string others find useless ,I find it very useful tool to have in ones bag of tricks..
Hope that helps..

[hoosier]

Thanks for those who provided ways to teach a dog to handle walking birds.

Anyone else have a different way of teaching this?

[RayGubernat]

Hoosier -

DO NOT, repeat...DO NOT tempt a puppy with a lock wing pigeon, or any other walking bird for that matter.

That is, in my opinion, very bad advice and a great way to screw up a dog before you are even started.

I do not know any trainer worth the time of day who would even consider doing such a stupid thing.

There is only one reason that I know of to allow a young dog to mess with birds like that and it has to do with dogs that have insufficient desire. Allowing a young dog with good breeding to catch and kill birds is a sure way to ruin such a dog.

Once you have a dog that is rock steady...THEN you can start proofing the dog with things like thrown pigeons and such. To tempt a young dog with a wing clipped bird or locked wing pigeon or bird with its flight feathers pulled, etc. is to invite disaster.

If the dog jumps in and catches the bird, you have set your training back...big time. Maybe even ruined the dog. If the bird defends itself and claws or pecks the youngster aggressively, it could cause the dog to become birdshy, which means it is pretty useless as a bird dog.

RayG

[slistoe]

There are dozens of ways to accomplish the goal, but what PDog outlined is not one of them. It may work on a precocious pup or two, but will definitely set you back with the majority of pups. Pushing too hard, too fast is what that one is.

Yawallac had a good program going with birds and a bucket on a whoa table that he outlined on one of these forums a year or two ago if you want to start them younger. For myself it is about the last thing I proof for after all other steadiness training is solid.

[Prairie dog]

You nae Sayers aught to ask before you commit yourself to what you do not know,understand and or seen before..
Who said anything about allowing a 4-6 month old pup to catch the locked winged pigeon.That's why God Gave us the Check cord,the flat collar and the leash and some white stuff between our ears to know how to use them. ............
Sorry guys I do not agree..

By the way, that method is less of a detriment to pups and dogs of all ages than having the dog on a whoa barrel yelling and shocking him to whoa when whoa has nothing what so ever to do with the dog keeping them planted when they see a walking bird.You want to train your dog on birds they can see ,then you must train them on walking birds. Cause someday one will walk on him when the dog and the bird are over the hill ..
Anyway that's the way I been doing it since 1976 with no ill affects on my pups and the ones I helped train for others.None...

Good luck with what ever method you choose to work your pup on..

[slistoe]

Careful, you will give yourself away.

You assume I have no experience with such. I have been called upon more than a few times to help fix dogs that were started out with your method. I cannot in good conscience recommend it as a first response or general approach to all dog owners on the internet. It is plain bad advice.

Training dogs to be staunch on walking birds is just plain good practice - for hunting dogs as much as trial dogs.

[Prairie dog]

I can't imagine it Listoe that you were called to fix a dog that was worked on that method. Then again , anything is possible by few...

Why is it good enough for a hunting dog and not for a trial prospect.

[hoosier]

Tell me if I am wrong here

I have a 20 month old EP that has just finished her 1st year of WILD bird hunting. She was hunted roughly 25 days on a combination of grouse, woodcock, quail , and pheasant. She is very confident, staunch on point, and retrieves to hand naturally. She is whoa broke. I can throw objects out in front of her and she won't break. Now I feel she is ready to broke to handle walking birds, so I can begin trialing her.

From what I hear I should start by whoaing her from a leash or check cord, then have a helper put a bird out in front of her. If she moves at all as the bird walks around I will have control from the leash. At that time I will command whoa and set her back. Once she begins standing without being corrected I can move from the back yard to the field, probably still with a check cord. Once I am confident she will not jump in and grab the bird I can put the e-collar on her and start to move away from the check cord. Then the final step would be testing her with out the e collar in a trial situtation.

Am I on the right track?

[slistoe]

I can't imagine it Listoe that you were called to fix a dog that was worked on that method. Then again , anything is possible by few...

Whatever you want to think. 2 dogs were absolutely bird shy - worked with CC and braided pigeons in the back yard.

Why is it good enough for a hunting dog and not for a trial prospect.

??????????? Try reading it again???

[Prairie dog]

Tell me if I am wrong here

I have a 20 month old EP that has just finished her 1st year of WILD bird hunting. She was hunted roughly 25 days on a combination of grouse, woodcock, quail , and pheasant. She is very confident, staunch on point, and retrieves to hand naturally. She is whoa broke. I can throw objects out in front of her and she won't break. Now I feel she is ready to broke to handle walking birds, so I can begin trialing her.

From what I hear I should start by whoaing her from a leash or check cord, then have a helper put a bird out in front of her. If she moves at all as the bird walks around I will have control from the leash. At that time I will command whoa and set her back. Once she begins standing without being corrected I can move from the back yard to the field, probably still with a check cord. Once I am confident she will not jump in and grab the bird I can put the e-collar on her and start to move away from the check cord. Then the final step would be testing her with out the e collar in a trial situtation.

Am I on the right track?

You are correct. Just one thing . Why confuse the dog with the whoa command when staying staunch on walking birds is between the dog and the bird.. Confuse may not be the correct word... I should have said why set the dog up to expect you to issue an order before he acts or to remain planted.Why must there always be an order for the dog to comply...

[Prairie dog]

I can't imagine it Listoe that you were called to fix a dog that was worked on that method. Then again , anything is possible by few...

Whatever you want to think. 2 dogs were absolutely bird shy - worked with CC and braided pigeons in the back yard.

Why is it good enough for a hunting dog and not for a trial prospect.

??????????? Try reading it again???

I like to think there isn't any one dumb enough to screw a dog up to a point where it blinks birds with that method. But we all know that's not the case..

I read it correctly the first time around. You must have been editing while I was making my post...

[slistoe]

hoosier I see this isn't a pup or a just started dog. For myself, I teach stop to flush, steady and then work on visible birds but you are in NSTRA and likely do not intend or need either stop to or steady so .....In the training scenario you put forth I would not give a whoa command when the dog moves. You have already given the whoa command and if the dog moves I would simply administer a leash correction without the command repeated.

[slistoe]

I read it correctly the first time around. You must have been editing while I was making my post...

Could be, sorta like my post just now that I started and then came back to finish and you had already posted the same info. The post did show without the reference to the trial dog for about 20 seconds.

[slistoe]

I have actually been considering getting one of these to aid with exactly this type of training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCKyh7_zuvs

[Prairie dog]

I don't know how long it was up before you changed it. 20 seconds or twenty hours, no big deal......

[gonehuntin']

It's all a simple progression. Pointing dog trainers seem to make a bigger deal of this than retriever trainer's do. First, you start in the yard, not the field. If a dog won't stay steady for a hand thrown dead bird or bumper, he won't stay in the field for thrown or flushed birds.

I first steady them at my side with hand thrown bumpers, and when they'll stay for those and a shot, then I go to clip wings, letting them retrieve about every third bird.

Once they do this, I'll have three launchers set up in the yard. I'll walk the dog around and randomly pop birds out of them, making the dog stop as each bird is launched.

Now, I'll go to a walking bird, throwing a clip wing or lock wing at the dog and making it stay steady. I'll allow the bird to walk all around the dog, not letting him pick it up. At the end of each session I'll throw a clip wing, keep the dog steady, then let it make the retrieve.

Only now do I take them to the field and very little pressure then has to be put on. All of the hard stuff has been done in the yard, much of it with bumpers, so there is little pressure ever used with birds and in the field. Prep the dog well in the yard and transition to the field will be easy.

[slistoe]

I don't know how long it was up before you changed it. 20 seconds or twenty hours, no big deal......

You only get about a minute or so after a post is made to edit it without getting a "post edited" sticky on the bottom of the post. You must have been quick on the reply because it was about 20 seconds.

Anyway, hunting dog or trial dog, if they won't stand when a bird walks out in front of them you are getting anything good from them.

[slistoe]

NIce progressive approach gone, but supposing the fellow does not want the dog to honor the flight of a bird and stop?

There is a very well known trainer who does his own version of walking fetch for pointing dogs - walking whoa (ok it is not really the best comparison of methodology). He hasn't written a book or made a DVD so there might be opportunity for someone to include it in theirs.

[Prairie dog]

I don't know how long it was up before you changed it. 20 seconds or twenty hours, no big deal......

You only get about a minute or so after a post is made to edit it without getting a "post edited" sticky on the bottom of the post. You must have been quick on the reply because it was about 20 seconds.

Anyway, hunting dog or trial dog, if they won't stand when a bird walks out in front of them you are getting anything good from them.

Yea it didn't take me long to read it. It wasn't much of a post , it was only five lines....


Exactly. And why I like to nurture,mold and shape them in to being ,early on......

[Don]

I teach STF, STWS and walkinn birds all as an extension of the whoa command. First you need a solid whoa command though. Now I don't start whoa till somewhere around a year usually. and I don't kill birds before then either. I do like to force break before killing but you don't really need to. To get to the dog stoping and standing a bird, I start with a dog stopping to a flushed bird. It's done in the yard and the dog is on a whoa when I release a live pigeon from my hand. I do not throw the bird now, just let it go, after the dog is whoa'd and has been settled down. I use the old Delmar Smith whoa post method with changes of my own to teach whoa and turn the dog over to the e-collar for whoa, either the e-collar or the check cord will work to correct the dog.

The pigeon is released maybe 10 sec or so after the dog is whoa'd, the command the dog is to follow is whoa, don't make a deal of the bird. The first few times, the dog will attempt to chase, stop it with the e-collar or the cc. Once its stopped, leave it along and go on from there. As your moving the dog around, start bringing the whoa command and the release of the bird closer together until you reach a point where you can simply release the bird and the dog will stop. what you have done is teach the dog that a flushing bird means whoa. Take it to the field and a couple birds with you and do it there a bunch.

Back to the yard and start from the begining only with a dead bird. Use dead now as its to much to ask at this point for the dog to watch a live bird walking around on the ground. Go thru the whole thing and when the dog is stopping to a dropped bird, toss it aways. The dog stands it, let the dog fecth, on command only! Time to get the walking bird. Take a pigeon and pull the flight feathers out of both wings. Start over but, when you drop that bird the first few times, drop it behind you. You need to be between the bird and the dog to insure it doesn't get the bird. This is really going to tempt the dog so help him out. As the dog starts standing, drop the bird at your side and move with it and herd it, pay attention to the dog, it moves, stop it, the dog.

By the time your done, you should be able to herd the live bird anywhere you want and the dog won't move, the bird walking on the ground means whoa. Keep in mind that what your doing is really whoa training but the bird in different stages is becoming the command by eleminating the voice command.

[RayGubernat]

hoosier -

Gonhuntin has the right idea. Go back to the yard first.

I might do it differently, but in the end it comes out the same I think.

I wuld probably put the dog up on a bench with a checkcord attached and throw a few pigeons on the ground out front of the dog. This way the dog has the additional impediment of having to decide to jump off the bench, and you have the additional warning and time to react.(my reaction time and timing sucks so I need all the help I can get ). Then, when I was confident the dog will not break, I would go to the wing clips or lock wing birdswalking around. Then I would take the dog off the bench and put it on the ground, whoa it, style it up and thow a pigeon down as I did with the dog on the bench and then progress to the lock wings again.

At this juncture, since you are interested in the retrieve(and I am not), I would use gonehuntin's approach as he outlined it. With your now reasonably well schooled dog you should be able to proceed quickly through the yardwork drills he outlined and go to the field with minimal pressure being applied and few if any backward steps being needed.

RayG

[Yawallac]

It's very easy to do and absolutely necessary if you are going to trial the dog ...and can be helpful in hunting situations as well. It is simply a matter of desensitizing the prospect to birds in close contact.

I generally start them on a table seeing birds up close and personal. I just use repetition until the youngster is comfortable and under control. As the pup becomes more reliable they are moved to the ground and the temptations are increased.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that you are gradually increasing the temptation moving slowly and making sure that the pup is ready for the next step before putting them in a situation that can not be controlled. Control and repetition are the keys IMO.

[gonehuntin']

NIce progressive approach gone, but supposing the fellow does not want the dog to honor the flight of a bird and stop?

It doesn't matter. In the yard, every dog should be steady for flush, shot, and fall. When you transfer the dog to the field, it will be VERY easy ( ) to teach him to chase if you want to. He will still stay steady on walking birds when on point.

Any command taught, has to be reinforced to be kept. The "CHASE EM" command is probably the easiest to teach!

[Prairie dog]

slistoe wrote:
NIce progressive approach gone, but supposing the fellow does not want the dog to honor the flight of a bird and stop..



The method I posted only trains the dog to perform one specific thing..Stop to flush, steady to wing and shot, and steady to the fall are not tought to the dog all at the same time.That's where the unwanted pressure comes from if you did.. Too messy, too complicated,not precise enough and too long for the pup to be under pressure.IMO.

Look at Ross's picture with the quail on the bucket and the proud pup.. There's a purpose for that, some day it will lead somewhere ..

Braiding a pigeons wing to walk in front of the pup is not much different than setting the pup up face to face with a quail...


The pup could have been just as easily eased in to that method way back when he was pointing the wing on the string if the trainer had little foresight..

Editted by Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Pdog -

And what you are conveniently forgetting to mention or give credit to(in the case of the pup pointing the bucket quail) in all of these scenarios is this absolutely crucial and critical piece...

There is preparation and drills that MUST precede exposure to birds in such a tempting and potentially disatrous manner. Ross said it clearly that the pictue of the youngster was taken after he was certain that the youngster could withstand the temptation. He used the term desensitization. Terms notwithstanding...I guarantee that youngster had a bunch of lessons before that picture was snapped.

What we are looking at there is awesome genetics that have been brought together by a knowlegeable breeder who understands what he wants in a dog and molded and shaped and channeled a trainer who knows his dog's capabilities and potential and understands how to get it done...with style.

I don't know Ross...never met the gentleman... but his words and his pictures tell me he knows what he wants and knows how to go about getting it.

RayG

[Yawallac]

Ray,

You're absolutely right. Lots of reps and a firm understanding of manners before allowing them to pose for pics.

How long do you think it took me to train the quail??

[Prairie dog]

Oh, I see. Ross prepared the pup and the method I suggested does not.

Didn't he say he used repetitiveness . I suspect that means he used a CC of some sort as means to apply the repetitiveness with out the pup catching and chewing on the quail.

Edeitted to take out the inflamatory rheteric by Ezzy-Moderator

[slistoe]

Ross, how long did it take to train the quail?

Editted by Ezzy

[birdogg42]

It's very easy to do and absolutely necessary if you are going to trial the dog ...and can be helpful in hunting situations as well. It is simply a matter of desensitizing the prospect to birds in close contact.

I generally start them on a table seeing birds up close and personal. I just use repetition until the youngster is comfortable and under control. As the pup becomes more reliable they are moved to the ground and the temptations are increased.

The most important thing to keep in mind is that you are gradually increasing the temptation moving slowly and making sure that the pup is ready for the next step before putting them in a situation that can not be controlled. Control and repetition are the keys IMO.

Ross is that a guard rail pup? I really like the looks of that dog.

Mike

[vzkennels]

Ross Callaway ( BIRD DOG & DOG BIRD TRAINER )

[Yawallac]

Ross is that a guard rail pup?

That's Sarah (getting the Rail Dancer straw), my Elhew female. She does however, have Guard Rail in her pedigree 6 times and Rail Dancer once, albeit, way back. But don't most good Pointers have Guard Rail in their pedigree somewhere??

Ted, I'm getting new cards printed.

[hoosier]

Thanks guys as soon as it gets above zero here in Indiana I am going to get started.

Well I guess I should say once I find some trained birds, I'll get strarted.

[RayGubernat]

Hoosier -

Actually, to get started, you don't need birds. You can do it in your garage. Tossing you ball cap on the ground in front of the dog after you have stacked it up and stroked it up can cause a dog to break. if it does break and goes and grabs your hat...there is no real harm done(except to the hat if the dog won't give it back ) and you will have the opportunity to correct the dog without any birds bieng involved. If no birds are invovled, the dog can't get any negative vibes toward birds.

I think I want a couple of those trained quail myself.

RayG

[gonehuntin']

Remember my advice? Steady them to bumpers (or thrown hats) first so there is no pressure associated with the birds. That will take a while. The birds are the final and proofing step.

[hoosier]

I started 9 days ago telling her whoa and then throwing the dokken dummy around while she stood. About every third time I would tap her on the head and let her retrieve it. Sat. I bought pigeons and moved to using them instead of the dummy. As you can see after 3 days and 5 training sessions with a real bird she is standing pretty good. I can let the bird walk and flop it's wings in front of her and she stands without movement. Next weekend we will move to the field.

By the way as you can see my birds aren't trained as well as Yawallac's birds. I had to put a checkcord on mine.

[Sharon]

Good for You!! A check cord on your pigeon. That is so funny.

[slistoe]

I'm guessing you don't own any of these Sharon - http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Bird-Eq ... rness.html

[gonehuntin']

I'm guessing you don't own any of these Sharon - http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Bird-Eq ... rness.html

I have those in both quail and pigeon size and for me, they don't work worth a crap. I far prefer the simple wing half hitch like Delmar does, or just tieing to a leg. When I use the commercial harness, the birds pull out their heads and escape, or if I get it a hair to tight, they die.

[Sharon]

I'm guessing you don't own any of these Sharon - http://www.lcsupply.com/Product/Bird-Eq ... rness.html

Never heard of such a thing. Not in Canada. You learn something every day on here.

[hoosier]

I just took a plastic zip tie and put it around the wing towards the body. Then snaped the checkcord to that. When done I cut the zip tie off and put the bird back in the cage.

[RayGubernat]

Sharon -

I actually use the same harnesses that Scott posted a pic of. I clip a long nylon string to the harness and attach the other end to a used horseshoe.

Pigeon can take off and fly...but it don't get far. When it hits the end of the string it comes down like it has been shot. If I time the blank pistol shot properly, it really tests the dog.

As gonehuntin said, occasionally the bird slips the harness and I lose one, but most often they don't. Sometimes, the bird coming out of the harness works out real well because the bird will be walking around free and if the dog takes that extra step to get closer, the bird pops...lesson learned.

I also use the orange nylon velcro wing ties...but I don't use them on pigeons. I actually use them as a quail harness. The birds fly relatively unencumbered but not as far as they normally would. Also they have a three or four foot orange string on them and that really gets the dog's attention when it flushes. The other thing is that most of the time I can locate and recover the quail. I actually use my old meat dog for the locate and recovery detail. She finds 'em and points 'em and as long as I give here a couple of attagirls she doesn't care when I pick it up by the string and stuff it into my bird bag. She'll just go find the next one. If I have to take my good recalling birds somewhere else to train, I try to recover them.

RayG